Dandavats to the assembled vaishnavas.
I am brand new on this forum so I am just getting to know my way around. I'm glad to have your association.
I recently asked Tripurari Swamiji a question during his visit to North Carolina. He suggested that I post it here, so here it is:
My understanding is that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur established 2nd initiation to preach the philosophy that the vaishnava is more than a brahmana. Srila Prabhupada carried on that tradition in preaching to westerners. Outside of preaching to Hindus, or in India preaching I am wondering if the brahma gayatri and the thread are still relevant parts of this initiation. I understand the connection of the other gayatri mantras to Gaudiya theology, but they are certainly not dependent upon a thread for chanting. What are your thoughts on this?
Another thought I had: In Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakur's Gurvasatakam he prays: dhyayan stuvams tasya yasas TRI-SANDHYAM. Tri-sandhyam means at the three sandhyas, dawn, noon and dusk. This would seem to indicate the chanting of the gayatris according to the phases of the sun. All brahmanas regardless of sampradaya chant the brahma gayatri, a sun mantra, at these three times of day. Does Vishvanatha C.T. indicate that ancient gaudiyas also chanted brahma gayatri? Did only those gaudiyas who were of brahmin caste chant brahma gayatri? If so, why would modern day western non brahmin caste gaudiyas chant it?
Please enlighten me.
Welcome to Tattva-viveka! Great to have you on!
Before Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur’s innovation of giving the Brahma gayatri and sacred thread, Gaudiya Vaisnavas would receive diksa mantras, the core of which are the Kama gayatri and Gopala mantra (the last two mantras we chant). This initiation was called diksa and was considered the main initiation. At the time of diksa, Gaudiya Vaisnavas brahmanas would take off the sacred thread because a Vaisnava is higher than a brahmana. However, because people in general did not understand this, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur began giving the sacred thread and Brahma gayatri at the time of diksa.
I agree that giving the sacred thread may no longer be relevant for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that many devotees in the West think that the second initiation is “brahmana initiation” and therefore only necessary for those who do Deity worship. They do not understand that Kama gayatri and Gopala mantras are extremely important for taking advantage of chanting the holy name. Mantra diksa, a core aspect of our lineage, is thought to just be something that was started as a preaching strategy and is therefore nonessential. Secondly, for preaching in the West, stressing that devotees are brahmanas seems not only irrelevant but counter-productive. Thirdly, it necessitates a drawn-out and rather unsatisfying explanation of why men receive a thread and women don’t.
Ys,
Vrindaranya
All brahmanas regardless of sampradaya chant the brahma gayatri, a sun mantra . . .
No scripturaly educated Gaudiya Vaisnava will say that the Brahma gayatri is a sun mantra, if by that you mean that it propitiates the sun god rather than Brahman. No doubt some non Gaudiya brahmans conceive of it as such, but our conclusion about them is that they do not understand the import of the mantra.
... giving the sacred thread may no longer be relevant ...
Is this your personal opinion or Guru Maharaja thinks along this lines as well? Does this mean that he will stop performing fire sacrifice and giving brahmana thread during mantra diksha? Does this mean that disciples already wearing sacred thread would have to take it off? Please advise.
No scripturaly educated Gaudiya Vaisnava will say that the Brahma gayatri is a sun mantra, if by that you mean that it propitiates the sun god rather than Brahman.
I understand that this mantra addresses Brahman, but brahman being rather vague it seems that this mantra has been "krsna-ized" by its Gaudiya chanters. I thought that I have also read commentary describing the gaudiya understanding as this mantra addressing not the sun, but surya-narayana. Is this to reference the sun as representative of that divine effulgence, Brahman (which comes from Krsna)? Why is it chanted at the sandhyas - another connection to the sun? Quite possibly I am totally lost... Also, this still makes me question why we chant it today if we have to make it fit into our theology rather than a natural fit like the other mantras. I mean no disrespect to this mantra, I'm just trying to understand the point today, and the point of the thread out of context of Vedic brahmanas. Thank you for your replies so far.
Sri Jiva Goswami is very clear on this in his tattva-sandarbha. Brhama gayatri petitions no one else other than Bhagavan replete with his sakti. I my bhavanuvada of TS I have explained this at some length.
Here are some related thoughts:
1. It is common knowledge that gayatri eminates from the flute of Sri Krsna. Wy then would it be about the sun? It is only about the sun in as much as the sun can be used for the purpose of meditation as a conceptual symbol representing Bhagavan, being that which in this world we are dependnt upon for our sustenance.
2. Garuda Purana clearly states that Srimad Bhagavatam is a commentary on the gayatri mantra. Thus we find satyam param dhimahi at the onset of Bhagavatam. This is also indicated in the middle and the end of the text. Is Srimad Bhagavatam about the sun?
3. All gayatri mantras come from the prototype of Brahma gayatri. Is it possible then for them to contain more than their source, or do they merely focus more directly on one aspect of all that is found in the Brahma gayatri? It is said that Gayatri devi incarnated as Kama gayatri to pursue gopi bhava.
Is this really such a stretch of "Krsnizing" the mantra?
With regard to the policy of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada, we have two things going on, a socioreligious preaching consideration and a spiritual one. The relevance of the socioreligious preaching consideration—thread and all—is questionable at this time. Spiritually speaking, one might question the need for Brahma gayatri when Kama gayatri is given, but one cannot question the spirituality of Brahma gayatri.
Is this really such a stretch of "Krsnizing" the mantra?
The relevance of the socioreligious preaching consideration—thread and all—is questionable at this time. Spiritually speaking, one might question the need for Brahma gayatri when Kama gayatri is given, but one cannot question the spirituality of Brahma gayatri.
Thank you Maharaj, I guess I was looking at it too much from a Hindu perspective. And yes, when I am reminded of all the obvious krsna-relatedness, the mantra seems much more "ours" than up for grabs. Though I don't have your Tattva-Sandarbha I will have to look up that reference in the one I have.
Your point about socioreligious considerations is well taken. I guess that is up to the modern day acaryas to decide the necessity of such practices.
Could anyone point out the source of the Guru and Gaura mantras? Where do they come from?
You could try this link to an article written by Swami B.G. Narasingha Maharaja:
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/...asingha-fs.html
Personally after reading the commentary on gayatri given by Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara deva Goswami I can't imagine not including this mantra in our lineage. Besides that, Guru Maharaja gave me the mantra. He also gave me a thread. I think of the thread like I think of my japa beads in some ways. It also represents in pysical form for me that which was passed on to me spiritually. Of course if Guru Maharaja told me to take off the thread as there is no need for it I would certainly do so. But at this point, since he did give it to me I consider it sacred. I know the reasons why Srila Bhaktisiddhanta started the practice and I agree that it probably is irrelevant in that regard, particularly in the west where I reside - still I can't deny that the thread has great meaning for me as it was given to me by Guru Maharaja.
Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa
Guru Maharaja gave me the mantra. He also gave me a thread. I think of the thread like I think of my japa beads in some ways. It also represents in pysical form for me that which was passed on to me spiritually. . . . he did give it to me I consider it sacred. . . . I can't deny that the thread has great meaning for me as it was given to me by Guru Maharaja.
Yes, you can consider it part of your svarupa in Gaura-lila, as we are all brahman kishroes in that realm. Think of the mantra in this light as well. You will be chanting it forever. In this way a socioreligious consideration can rise to a spiritual one. Whenever the socioreligious and spiritual unite, that is a plus. Whenever they part, we will follow the spiritual lead with no loss.
Besides that, Guru Maharaja gave me the mantra. He also gave me a thread. I think of the thread like I think of my japa beads in some ways. It also represents in pysical form for me that which was passed on to me spiritually.
Thank you for your perspective. It is very logical and I appreciate your sentiments also. I have also considered this point that the thread is one of those physical things which may remind us of our guru, as a gift from him. I like this perspective much more than how I had been thinking of it. Though keeping in mind the non-essential of the thread I like to have a good reason for a ritual practice. I get annoyed if I feel like I'm doing something just out of historical ritual. Thank you all for your thoughts and the references.
As for practical considerations, how important is it to chant the gayatris at the sandhyas? Sometimes I notice at work or school I'm thinking about time or circumstance (having a suitable place to meditate) and just end up trying to squeeze out the mantras like inattentive japa or not chant them at all. "Making up" mantras always seemed strange to me. I think this is where my frustration with the ritual came about. I know that some other traditions chant gayatri without holding the thread or other gaudiyas chant their mantras on a mala (because they don't wear a thread) regardless of time of day. Any thoughts on these practices or adjustments?
Thank you very much Maharaj for your comments. Your spiritual view really overwhelmes my mundane one.
you can consider it part of your svarupa in Gaura-lila, as we are all brahman kishroes in that realm. Think of the mantra in this light as well. You will be chanting it forever.
I find this very interesting. How does this relate to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's description of gayatri as the small circle within the larger circle of the Hare Krsna mantra? In that description gayatri retires at liberation and the Hare Krsna mantra takes one to goloka.
you can consider it part of your svarupa in Gaura-lila, as we are all brahman kishroes in that realm. Think of the mantra in this light as well. You will be chanting it forever.
I find this very interesting. How does this relate to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's description of gayatri as the small circle within the larger circle of the Hare Krsna mantra? In that description gayatri retires at liberation and the Hare Krsna mantra takes one to goloka.
Just as varnashrama is transcended in the course of attaining love of God but then reappears as the social structure of the lila itself, similarly liberated devotees in perfected sadhaka/siddha dehas as young brahmin boys in Gaura lila, while not needing to chant gayatri in pursuit of liberation, will nonetheless chant brahma gayatri thrice daily within the lila, just as Gaura himself does. Brahmins such as Madhumangala in the Vraja lila also chant it.
Otherwise Gopal mantra, Kama gayatri, etc. retire as one realizes one's ideal found within these mantras. They retire in terms of the need to chant them, but not in terms of the reality they represent. Furthermore, for the most part even liberated devotees (bhava bhaktas) continue to chant their diska mantras in their sadhaka deha, even though the efficacy of these mantras has been reached, if for no other reason than to set an example for sadhakas. I believe that Sri Sanatana Prabhu discusses this in Brhad-bhagavatamrta. Does anyone remember reading about it therein?
Guru Maharaja gave me the mantra. He also gave me a thread. I think of the thread like I think of my japa beads in some ways. It also represents in pysical form for me that which was passed on to me spiritually. . . . he did give it to me I consider it sacred. . . . I can't deny that the thread has great meaning for me as it was given to me by Guru Maharaja.
Yes, you can consider it part of your svarupa in Gaura-lila, as we are all brahman kishroes in that realm. Think of the mantra in this light as well. You will be chanting it forever. In this way a socioreligious consideration can rise to a spiritual one. Whenever the socioreligious and spiritual unite, that is a plus. Whenever they part, we will follow the spiritual lead with no loss.
My heart actually danced when I read both of these posts. I have continued to wear the sacred thread because Srila Prabhupada placed it on my body. I have long since stopped seeing it as a sign that I'm a brahmana. The more I study and chant, the more I see that I am not a brahmana. However, I have always seen it as a sign of discipleship, an expression of my subordination to and protection by my spiritual master. I hadn't thought of it in the light that Swami gives here: that it is a part of the Gaura-lila svarupa we aspire to realize.
Nanda-tanuja raised a question that I have wondered about. If someone is initiated into the mantras without Brahma-gayatri, sould they wear sacred thread? I understand that this may not be an apporpriate question for this forum.
As for practical considerations, how important is it to chant the gayatris at the sandhyas? Sometimes I notice at work or school I'm thinking about time or circumstance (having a suitable place to meditate) and just end up trying to squeeze out the mantras like inattentive japa or not chant them at all. "Making up" mantras always seemed strange to me. I think this is where my frustration with the ritual came about. I know that some other traditions chant gayatri without holding the thread or other gaudiyas chant their mantras on a mala (because they don't wear a thread) regardless of time of day. Any thoughts on these practices or adjustments?
Your initial point regarding Sri Visvanatha's Gurvastakam (tri sandhyam) merits further research. I believe he appeared in a brahamin family, and it seems from Gurvastakam that he combined his sanhya-vandanam with his guru mantra and guru gayatri, etc. as we do.
Otherwise, observing sandhya-vandanm is a brahmincal duty and thus pertains to the brahma gayatri and not necessarily the other diksa mantras and gayatris. However, the practice of mantra dhyana at the three sandhyams is an excellent practice. It requires that one stop and meditate three times daily, observing the sun's movements and thinking of the sun as a symbolic representation of God. This mandates a change of lyifestyle for most.
The sun is so important to us. Without it we would be dead. It speaks so loudly to us every day, but we do not hear its message. Those with very deep expereince of life tell us, ayur harati vai pumsam udyann astam ca yan asau "With the rising and setting of the sun everyone's life is being taken away, except, that is, for one who is engaged in glorigfying Krsna," tasyarte yat ksano nita uttamasloka vartaya. I recently lectured on this verse in Washington DC, where I was hosted by disciples of Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja. Maharaja is now a potentially terminal cancer patient.
At any rate, it is hard to change one's lifestyle in a society that does not lend to it. Still we should try. There is no need to chant one's diksa mantras on the thread, if it is inconvenient. But one should not chant in a way that is less than meditative if one expects to derive any benefit from chanting.
One can chant one's first mantra session after rising and bathing, and do it a second time before leaving for work. Leaving for work, although in the forenoon, takes the sadhaka into the day so to speak, following Kana into the forest. That is the beginning of what could be construed as one of three major blocks of time in one's daily routine, the first being early, early morning, followed by leaving the house for work, followed by one's return home for the balance of the day.
Madan gopala asked:
Could anyone point out the source of the Guru and Gaura mantras? Where do they come from?
Reply:
The guru mantra and gayatri given by our acarya, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, are different from that found in the paddhatis of Gopala Guru Goswami and Dhynacandra Goswami. They collected them from various scriptures, but this is perhaps another discussion concerning interpolation, and, more relevant to this discussion, the liberty of the acarya.
The bija given by Srila Saraswati Thakura is different and lends to concieving of Sri Guru in any of the four primary sentiments of Vraja, as opposed to only madhurya rasa. It is also a meditation on Sri Guru's absorption in the Vraja lila (krsnanandaya), as apposed to gaura lila (gaurapriyaya).
Gaura mantra and gayatri are not accepted as eternal by all Gaudiya Vaisnavas, nor do such Gaudiyas acknowledge an aprakata nitya lila of Gaura Raya! There is a lot of disagreement out there. We disagree with those who do not chant it, as do the majority of lineages.
Guru mantra and gayatri, Gaura mantra and gayatri, Nityananda mantra and gayatri, etc. are not always given by the guru, but the Gopala mantra and kama gayatri are. These are the main diksa mantras for Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Other mantras and gayatris are primarily for seva puja, but we should chant them as instructed by our Gurudeva, knowing that there are others who have been instructed differently.
(See previous my previous post as well for more on these topics)
However, the practice of mantra dhyana at the three sandhyams is an excellent practice. It requires that one stop and meditate three times daily, observing the sun's movements and thinking of the sun as a symbolic representation of God. This mandates a change of lyifestyle for most.
I like this advice very well. I remember hearing that, observing some Muslims stop everything to offer their prayers one of the five times they do this, Srila Prabhupada commented that it would be nice if we were as faithful in our chanting our japa andour mantras.
I try to chant as close the the sandhyas as I can because it reminds me of Visvanath's prayer. This semester I'm lucky to have a break at noon every day, so I can go to my office to chant. Often I'll go sit under one of the many banyan trees on campus and chant.
One can chant one's first mantra session after rising and bathing, and do it a second time before leaving for work. Leaving for work, although in the forenoon, takes the sadhaka into the day so to speak, following Kana into the forest. That is the beginning of what could be construed as one of three major blocks of time in one's daily routine, the first being early, early morning, followed by leaving the house for work, followed by one's return home for the balance of the day.
Oh, I really like this! Rather than serving as a consolation, it shows a way for us to adjust our attitude to our whole day.
Unlimited thanks for that flood of information Swami. Both practical and transcendental. Just when I thought it couldn't get any better... Dessert!