Swami: Well, I just wrote some things from the book. I could read you a paragraph if you would like, and...
Karnam: Yeah, that would be great.
Swami: ...relate some thoughts about it. "Daylight hours in the life of Rama and Krishna's cowherd friends begins with the sound of Balarama's buffalo horn. Rama, glowing like a full moon of confidence that never fades even as the night ends, stands on a raised platform against a cautious copper sky just before the sun peeks above the horizon. Surya waits for Rama, the maryada-purusha in Krishna's life, to signal that the coast is clear, that now he can appear. For Vraja's dearmost hero sleeps soundly and, more so, safely as if the whole night through. The sound of Rama's horn calls cowherds to assemble, as endless dreams longing for cowherding throughout the forests of Vraja lead to come true."
So there are some thoughts on this, it's just an unedited paragraph, but... Of course it's describing the typical beginning of the day in the lives of Krishna's friends that are heralded to assemble in Nanda Baba's courtyard by the sound of Balarama's horn. He's been described here as effulgent like the full moon of confidence. Confidence speaks to very nature of sakhya-rasa which is about, (07:36 ???) I should say, it's exchange between equals. And so he's likened to the full moon which is also a way of describing his complexion which says something about his bhava, his complexion being like the full moon. The moon's light is reflective of the sun's light. So Balarama lights up so to speak in reflecting the light of Krishna whom he sees himself as the principal servitor of, and that throughout all of Krishna's expansions. They say three is a crowd, but wherever Krishna and his consorts are, Laksmi-Narayana, Laksmi-Narasingha and so forth, Balarama is the third, he is always there without a consort, in this case, of his own, but offering support as Ananta-sesa and so on and so forth. So at any rate, like the full moon of confidence. Confidence, again, speaks to the nature the sakhya-rasa of Balarama himself. It never fades, even as the night ends, at which normally by the light of the sun the moon would fade, as we know. As the night ends he stands on a raised platform. I've described the sky as cautious in that the suns rays that begin to illuminate the sky, before the sun actually rises, is what I'm describing as a cautious sky. The idea being that typically Krishna has to get home from his rendezvous with Radha and the gopis before the sun comes up.
And so it's Balaramas horn that heralds the beginning, so to speak, of the day of sakhya-rasa, like I said, the cowherds come to assemble, from which the sun takes his clue it's safe to rise now. Krishna is resting safely. Safely meaning, from the context of the lila, from being apprehended for his night time exploits. So he awaits for Rama who is the maryada purusa in Krishna's life... I've described it elsewhere, he's the older brother so he is commissioned by Yasoda-mayi to watch out for him and so forth. Here he is watching out for him [chuckle] in a peculiar way, so to speak. He does tell on Krishna, as we know, Krishna ate dirt, Rama told on him. That's another story. But he doesn't tell on him about his life with the gopis which is desired by vatsalya-rasa, but it doesn't fit within the context of the lila. And so the vatsalya sensibilities are in conflict with the madhurya sensibilities. They are also in conflict with the sakhya rasa sensibilities to some extent. But, Maryada means of course the proper behavior, etiquette and so forth. He is supposed to watch over Krishna that he behaves properly. For the most part he does so, but the fact that he is in the background of, facilitating so to speak, the madhurya rasa, which really we see in his form as Nityananda Prabhu, who facilitates it by way of pushing Gaura forward and bringing attention to him who is all about the pursuit of madhurya rasa and so forth. But also in Krishna lila in indirect ways, but in substantial ways.
Being the maryada-purusa, it indicates that his behavior is approved by him, if you will. At any rate, he signals that the coast is clear, now Krishna can appear, so to speak, before his (07:20-21 ??? friends? parents?) So, meanwhile, just prior to the sound, if you will, of Rama's horn, bugling on his horn, all the cowherds, they are absorbed in endless dreams of cowherding throughout the forests. Their waking, so to speak, is their dreams coming true. So, some of the thoughts about it. I've thought about it a little more philosophically, but that's a kind of poetic and feelingful, rasika type of consideration of what's written. To look at it, the end part, the dreams, that is, of the cowherds a little more philosophically, and ground the lila itself in Vedanta, sobriety if you will, of Vedanta, that it might not be misunderstood, it might be worth mentioning the nature of the different dimensions consciousness, which comes to mind when we speak of the cowherds dreaming. A note about that before I go on with the... a description of the different dimensions of consciousness, again, to ground the lila in Vedanta, for the readers.
A note about the dreaming of the cowherds. I was speaking with the mahant among the descendants of Nayanananda Thakura, who are the descendants from Sundarananda who is the Sridama [Sudama] of Gaura-lila, I think over a year ago. I was speaking with him over Skype actually. Sastra-vani was there actually at Mangaldihi where they reside. You may know that Nayanananda wrote a book called Preyo-Bhakti-Rasarnava about the nature of sakhya-rati, which this book is also about as well. He mentions there about Krishna's friends dreaming about Krishna-lila all night long. The mahant told me a story about Nayanananda regarding such dreams of the cowherd boys. Apparently Nayanananda traveled widely in his times, somewhere in the beginning of the 1700s, and spoke often with great feeling about Rama and Krishna's sakhya-rati-lilas. But he never spoke about such lilas at night. His feeling apparently, or developing bhava, at the time, was that in Vraja the sakhya-rati sleeps at night, because the cowherds go to sleep, whereas the madhurya rasa stays up all night. However, in his travels one night he was requested by a ruler, the king in the area where he was, to speak about these lilas which he had gained a reputation for, the following night. Nayanananda knew that practically speaking he could not refuse the king. I mean, this is the king, we got a monarch you know. It was the times of monarchy, you know, so you don't refuse the king's request. But at the same time his developing sakhya rasa sensibilities wouldn't allow him to do so. He had a commitment to never speak about sakhya-rati-lilas after dark, because he thought they were not going on. The Vraja sakhya rasa rests, sleeps, at night.
But he thought he could be chastised, who knows, beheaded, by the king if he didn't. But again, his developing bhava sensibilities in sakhya-rasa wouldn't allow him to do so. So understand, anyway, the plight of his devotee, Gopala Krishna appeared to him in a dream and told him that at night his friends in sakhya rati are active in the form of their dreams. All night they are dreaming about cowherding with Krishna and Balarama and so forth. Therefore it was appropriate, it wasn't inappropriate to speak about those pastimes in one's sadhaka-deha throughout the night. So the dilemma was resolved. Cute story. In thinking about that, the inspiration to ground this poetic section in Vedanta came to me, in that dream is one of the four commonly thought of dimensions of consciousness.
So there is the waking dimension of consciousness, the jagrata, the dreaming dimension of consciousness, svapna, the deep sleep without dreams dimension of consciousness, susupti and then there is turiya which is the fourth, that is beyond, what can we say about it, it's just the fourth. It's what transcendentalists from their perspective see as the most fully developed dimension of consciousness, in which the nature of reality is most accurately perceived and experienced. And of course, Gopala-tapani Sruti, Gopala-tapani Upanisad, from where the Gopala mantra, that is the primary mantra of our sampradaya, comes, describes the fifth dimension of consciousness. Turiyatitah Gopalah. So, anyway, the idea would be, what this dreaming of the cowherd boys, it's dreaming consciousness, dreaming dimension of consciousness within the fifth dimension of consciousness. So I will explain it to you. It's an interesting way I think also of explaining ourselves to others. It's a very high topic. It's commonly thought that the full, complete and healthy dimension of consciousness is the waking state. Dreams are thought to be fictitious and inaccurate and deep sleep is thought to be unconscious, where consciousness doesn't exist. There is no conception amongst the general public of a fourth dimension, what to speak of a fifth. This is the common kind of way in which most people conduct their lives.
Then from a naturalist, physicalist, materialist, philosophically speaking, perspective then there is the attempt to collapse even the dreaming state which we would say is a dimension where we are tuned into psychic matter more than physical matter, to collapse that into physical, that it's all just a function of the brain it's thought. For those who have begun over the past few decades to look into the nature of consciousness, which has become a prominent pursuit of interest, so to speak. It's kind of the last horizon. If we can only explain consciousness and demonstrate it convincingly and conclusively to be a function of the brain, then we have been able, you know, to prove that there is nothing more than the physical. That is the idea. Prior to of course the quantum physics perspective, in classical physics, consciousness wasn't even a subject to be discussed practically. It was thought that everything was mechanistic and only physical forces were at play. Everything was explained. But when the quantum came to the fore then it was apparent that the subatomic world in the least functions much differently from the world of our everyday experience and such that the observer has some role, and again, to the picture of examining the world through the microscope of modern science to find consciousness.
So there has been a lot of interest in understanding consciousness and so forth, mostly with an idea to demonstrate that it's nothing more than the brain. There is a lot of theories and so forth. But the gap, you know, making that explanation conclusive is about as wide as the pacific ocean. We don't think it will ever be close of course, because we have a different experience. Our descriptions come from those who were interested in consciousness and thought consciousness to be central to the world, long before modern science was born. It was not really the topic of the Bible or the Koran, the Old Testament. Certainly it's the topic of the Gita, the Upanisads, the Bhagavata, Eastern revelation and so forth. And of course we have many transcendentalists and experiencers, rsis. And so from them we have this other perspective that there are four dimensions of consciousness. There is waking, there is dreaming, deep sleep and the fourth. And of course then the fifth, for those who are better Vedantists I would say. While the modern materialistic, dominant scientific materialism, the dominant perspective of that, seeks to reduce everything to the brain and so forth, and look at the waking state as the normal, full face, where the fullness of reality can be experienced.
Those who think like that have to nonetheless if they are researching consciousness acknowledge that there is this state that the mystics call the fourth, if you will, that is a deep experience some mystics have. But they equate it to a state of experience that is brought about by the introduction of certain herbs or drugs into the system and altering, for example through psychedelics you can get a semblance of the experience of what it might be to be in Samadhi if you will. You get the experience that things might not be what I thought they were. You get shaken up so to speak. It's hardly the full experience of Samadhi in which, this fourth state, everything is seen, the interconnectedness of all things is seen. It's such a wholesome state that one feels he or she feels has no enemy, national boundaries are erased, gender boundaries are erased, universal compassion arises. And so the description about this stage that some people, obviously the mystics experience, if you really look at them carefully, they sound like the fullest dimensions of consciousness undeniably, in comparison to the waking state where we have nothing but this very narrow perspective full of conflicts and distress, evil, boundaries everywhere, borders everywhere.
Karnam: The ego state, huh?
Swami: Yeah. You know, comparatively, looking at the waking state and the fourth, the jagrata and the turiya, and the descriptions of those who experience them, it should be obvious that what we strive for in the jagrata, in the waking state, is what's described in the fourth state, which nonetheless by materialists is described to be the fourth state, some type of hypermetabolic pathological, you know, condition to be in, hardly the healthy state. But look carefully at it, it's pretty hard objectively not to say, that sounds like the healthy state. From the transcendentalists point of view you have the waking state which is in one sense the pathological one, the one where we are actually diseased, we don't get it right, we are at odds with one another, we don't see the commonality that we have, we don't see suffering of others as if it's our own and so forth. The dream state, the dream dimension of consciousness is one in where, you know, there are more possibilities than in the waking state. So you're in a conscious dimension where the waking state has been retired so to speak temporarily and you are preoccupied with psychic matter, which we acknowledge in Vedanta. In the psychic matter, freed relatively speaking from the burdens of the waking state, there is more possibilities and one lives happily ever after.
Even we go in the waking state towards the dreaming state, by entering into our daydreams so to speak and the world becomes nicer, better, ultimately, more possibilities, happier and so forth. And then of course from the transcendentalist perspective the deep sleep stage is one in which the physical matter and psychic matter are for all intents and purposes turned off temporarily and the nature of it is restful, it's peaceful, no longer burdened by the mind and by the senses. And obviously as I said the dreamless state may be described by materialists in a particular way that is different from how the transcendentalists describe it. The rishis, the transcendentalists thought of it in this way, that it gives us a hint at the idea that, hmm, beyond dreaming, beyond mind, beyond body, there is an existence and it's restful, shanti shanti, it's peaceful and I exist, I wake, and I remember that I was peaceful.
How can I remember something that I hadn't experienced. On some subtle level I'm experiencing the restfulness of the self in a simplistic way, if you will, in a static way I should say, unencumbered by the psychic and physical matter. And then turiya, the fourth is mentioned, to enter into that dimension of consciousness where one has through the particular sadhana exhausted the karmic influence, which is the influence of subtle and gross matter, such a transcendentalist is peaceful, turiya. To end this brief but extended discussion here, the fifth dimension is where we find these cowherd boys. They are in the fifth dimension, they are dreaming inside of the fifth dimension, and they are going to wake in the fifth dimension. The fifth dimension is this dynamic, realized, and perfected stage of consciousness compared to the fourth dimension, which is a static realized dimension of consciousness where there is peacefulness, where there is harmony, all things are connected, there are no problems, and the perception of problems - you know, death, is a perception in the waking stage that in the fourth dimension, it doesn’t exist, it is just part of the how the material nature moves - it changes again and again. It is not a problem.
The problem is that we are identified with the waking dimension. So, that's restful, it's peaceful, “Ahhh”, it’s a big relief type of a state. But the fifth dimension now becomes active within this transcendent dimension of consciousness and there we find lila, and there we find, to bring it all back, we find in Krishna's lila, and his friends are dreaming inside the fifth dimension. They are going to wake to the sound of Balarama’s horn inside the fifth dimension and play out their day. So that is very extraordinary- the waking and dreaming if you will. And there is no dreamless sleep in Vraja. There is dreaming, dream consciousness if you will, inside the fifth, and sakhya rati has a place where it plays itself out there, and so forth. So those are some thoughts from my writing this morning. (Laughs) You asked.
Karnam: So that fourth state is really kind of like brahma bhuta, huh?
Swami : Yeah.
Karnam : Any questions or?
Swami: I mean, it’s a good example because you could talk about these four dimensions - anybody who has studied consciousness has to admit that, “Yes, we say that there is this fourth dimension, you know, and it is obviously enriched, and full, and it very arguably, objectively speaking, the stage of consciousness where you get the whole picture.
Karnam : Mhm.
Swami: Whether there is life after death or not, which sometimes people say, “I don’t believe in life after death", you know? Well, do you believe in this fourth dimension of consciousness? People have experience in it, hmm? In that, what you find is that harmonious experience, fulfilling, compassionate, and so forth. And they report from there that there is no death. Now you could say from your waking stage that you don’t believe that there is no death, but within that dimension, that is part of their experience. You might have to go there to find out, you know? You can say that it is just a phenomena of the brain in a certain state, and then there is a solution that you don’t die but you will, but that is just something you are speculating about - you haven’t gone there. For those who go there, it is life transforming to say the least. You can have an epiphany of that, a contrary, you know. I’m sorry, go ahead, any comments?
Pranada: Would you say that the meditative experience that is sometimes measured by scientists that say, “yeah, there really is a different state”, we could say that hints to the turiya state that you are discussing?
Swami : Yeah, yeah. The state they are talking about is the turiya state. You know, when they admit that it is a turiya state. Now I would differ from those who say it is the same effect that can be affected by psychedelic drugs or by some type of deprivation of sleep or you know, meditative practice, and lump them all together. I mean I've taken psychedelic drugs, to be transparent here with you, you know. It’s been a long long long time. It is transforming in ways because it gives you the experience that the constructs that you are kind of holding onto in life are not as strong or as firm as they appear to be and so forth. But the meditative experience of samadhi doesn't have any of the negative features of the state affected by psychedelic drugs and there is a kind of knowing. I mean, you could take psychedelic drugs and feel you’re invincible and walk of a high rise building, you know - you wouldn’t do that in samadhi. So anyway, that stage they are talking about - so your question is, “Does the fourth point to the fifth?” Well we would say that the fourth is described in the sacred texts and this is the static dimension of the fourth. The static dimension of the fourth, the static dimension of enlightened consciousness. Then there is a dynamic one called the fifth, which is lila. Once you get to the fourth, then, you know... But then they are possibilities within that which constitute the fifth. You know, that’s an easy case to make, so to speak. I don’t know if I’m answering your question, but -
Pranada: Yeah, well, I was just thinking about measuring the meditative experience of people not necessarily in samadhi, but who have got some experience with proper meditation and are entering into a different state that would indicate that there is such a thing as continued, um, you know, entering that dimension fully of samadhi.
Swami: Yeah.
Pranada: - that that’s possible.
Swami: Yeah, but, yeah. So that would be to fully entering into the fourth as possible, right, and to experience the world entirely from that perspective and then you know, once you’ve gone there-
Pranada: Exactly.
Swami: Let’s take for example, Krishna lila. You want to explain Krishna lila to people - well once you’ve convinced people that there is a fourth dimension of consciousness, and, you know (laughs), that makes the waking state, and all of the limitations of that state apparent, and the limitations of the dreaming state apparent, you just entered a realm where there is all possibilities. So then to say, “What possibilities lie within consciousness”, we just like, you know, went from the shore to the ocean. Um, what’s the possibilities of water compared to land? So, yeah.
Karnam: Hmm.
Swami: - Again, back to the mathematical analogy - from zero, which is positive in comparison to negative numbers, to positive numbers is to go from the zero of the fourth. You know, negative numbers would be the material dimensions of consciousness, one, two, and three. Three meaning, waking, dreaming, and deep sleep to the fourth, which would be zero, which is positive in relation to the negative numbers and then the fifth is the positive numbers - Dynamic movement from stillness to movement, from peace to peace and love. Love requires movement as I often say.
Pranada : And that fifth dimension of turiyatita that is mentioned in the Gopala Tapani Upanishad, it is specifically in relationship to Gopal, in other words, that dimension is Gopal's dimension.
Swami : Well, I don’t know where else it might be mentioned, but it is prominently mentioned there in the Gopala Tapani Upanishad. I mean it would apply I would say this, other schools of Vaishnava Vedanta, for example, whose objective is Vaikuntha, which is adhoksaja, it is transcendental in its appearance and nature overtly so as opposed to Krishna Lila, which is aprakrita, looks mundane but it actually completely spiritual. Those vaishnava sampradayas seeking that adhoksaja platform refer to it as turiya. I have never seen an explanation turiyatita that makes any sense other than what you find in Gopala Tapani, referring to Krishna Lila. So, yes, I would say. Turiyatita, that’s the phrase in the Gopal Tapani. Turiyatita Gopalah. Let’s go there.
Karnam : (laughs) Yeah.
Swami : You can dream about it (laughs).
Karnam : And within that fourth state, it seems like it is kind of almost like an infinite state where there would be a lot of, uh, a lot of levels even within that. You know, of different combinations of our experiences of that- because generally it is not just like a step that you’re in but there is a whole world in that. Would that be accurate?
Swami : Well of course, there is Brahma Sayujya, you know, from our perspective would be the lower end of that. There is santa rasa, which is far above that, but it is a stage of Vaikuntha. It is the goal of the yoga sutras, Patanjali’s sutras - Santa rasa, the beatific vision, passive adoration of the absolute. From Santa rasa to Dasya rasa, sakhya, a different kind of sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya, and so forth. So yeah, these are all, you know, fourth and fifth dimension (laughs). Again, it is a whole world of enlightened consciousness. Obviously all of them include within them the same vision of what we experience in the waking state - you know, that it is not as those in waking consciousness that have to experience beyond it, it is not what it appears to be to them. They all agree on that, and then the nature of their expirence within the fourth is varied, right? You follow?
Karnam: Mhm, Mhm.
Swami : Yeah, and then of course, there is another way of looking at it : entering the fourth so to speak, or the fifth in one’s practice, just life in Bhava Bhakti, one enters the fifth dimension and comes back out, you know? In and out, until he enters and doesn’t come out again, right? Because there is a culture within Bhava bhakti. Sadhana is perfected but still bhava has to be perfected. Bhava being a ray of the sun of prema. So, going there, or going in a deep state of meditation through jnana misra bhakti or something, even pursuing brahma sayujya as maybe the case, then when you come out and your waking state is going to be altered, you know, by your experience there in. So you’re in the world but you’re a different person. You have to look at everything differently, it is all colored by your experience. Anyway, yeah, so- I mean it is a good way of saying, it is a good way of talking about these things that is very like, pragmatic, very objective, I would say. And also, a good way of explaining Krishna lila to those who want to perhaps stop at the fourth, if you will.
Karnam : Right, right. That’s fascinating.
Atmananda: Can ask another question on this? This is Atmananda.
Swami : yeah.
Atmananda: I was thinking about, I was wondering if you think it is helpful to include the explanations, like as pramana, like events, in the life of a devotee, like Maharaja Kulasekhara when he heard, he was a king in south India, and when he heard the Ramayana narrated, when he would hear the part where Sita was taken to Lanka then he took his entire army and marched to go Lanka and he actually entered into the ocean himself. That seems like he is there - I mean, it seems like a historical event and maybe he is hearing the lila and he is so, he is actually entering into the lila, he is experiencing the real thing. The proof is that he marched with his entire army like that. Seems like he's there, you know. I mean it's like a historical event, and maybe, you know, he's hearing the Lila and so he's actually entering the Lila, the real thing. The proof is that he marched with his entire army.
Guru Maharaja: Kulasekhara, are you saying that Kulasekhara entered into Rama bhakti bhava and took his whole army to Sri Lanka? (laughs) That's funny.
Atmananda: Yeah, he was hearing narrations of the Lila.
Guru Maharaja: Yeah
Atmananda: And when he would hear the part where Sita is kidnapped and taken to Lanka then he would take his entire army and lead them to go to South India, and the members of the court would send a messenger ahead and say everything is fine and Sita is okay, and then he would go back. So they stopped reading that part to him. But then one day the person who regularly read the Ramayana was, you know, out sick or something and the person who was filling in didn't know not to read that part, and he read it, and he actually marched all the way to South India, and they got to the shore of the ocean and he charged into the ocean himself. It's said that he was rescued by Lord Rama from drowning.
Guru Maharaja: Well these are extraordinary examples of the actions of great devotees that would be very difficult for ordinary people to understand and would be thought, you know, to be kind of they're being psychologically dysfunctional or mad or crazy or whatever. That's why sometimes, you know, you have to really have a context when you look at even someone like Prabhupada said so many different things at different times and some of the things he says are socially controversial, you know, and what knot. Like, he said once, you know, Yes! and if they don't accept the Krishna book, we will, We'll take power! We'll drop the bomb on them, you know. So people take that without understanding.
Without any context of what Bhava means, and how Prabhupada would speak about something and then a wave of, you know, sakhya rasa would come over him or he'd make a statement and he'd glow like a light bulb and glisten and smile and, Yes! We'll drop bombs on them, you know. It's like Krishna and his friends gather together to, you know, Yes! We'll kill a particular demon in Vraja, you know, something like that. This comes out as politically incorrect or weird but if you don't understand the context then you can't understand where the statement is coming from and so it's useful to some extent, but you know obviously to point that out, what bhava is and how someone under that influence can act in ways within the waking state that ordinary people will misunderstand.
That's why Rupa Goswami cautions people in his section on bhava bhakti in Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu that bhava bhakta's may act in ways that seem improper, or whatever, to ordinary people but one should not think of them improper because they've attained bhava which may be determined by other symptoms that make them extraordinary people. And the implication relative to our discussion being, functioning out of a different dimension altogether, now you know that can't be abused, you know, if you understand the other symptoms of bhava, that they would also have to display, in which makes them obviously extraordinary and so forth. So it's not something that the world understands very well and understandably so and even a lot of devotees don't understand it that well. But the goal of sadhana bhakti is bhava bhakti so some understanding of the goal and how it may affect one in this life and world and so forth, it's important to discuss.
Karnamrta: So Gopalnandini do you have a question?
Gopalnandini: Hi, well I did. I have many more different questions now after all of that. Thank you Guru Maharaja. Happy fathers day.
Guru Maharaja: Thank you.
Guru Maharaja: So you speak about being in the real... You know, here we are in this, whatever, day to day life and then there is the steps of bhakti of the different steps of the consciousness and the different dimensions. And then like knowing the two. You know what's here, what kind of regular people say is real, we really know that that's not really real, you know, the other, the further things are what's real. So would you say that, I mean because I sometimes encounter like a frustration between, you know, the kind of paradox of the real and the unreal, like you know, here we are in this day to day life that we live in, but knowing that none of this is really real, but having to live in it and then knowing that what, you know, everyone around you thinks is unreal is really what is real. Would you say that that frustration is a step in the right direction? I mean is there some frustration with that? like how.....
Guru Maharaja: Yes it's hard to navigate….You have to live out, you know, to a large extent the day to day empirical reality at the same time, as if it's real, often, right?
Gopalnandini: Yeah.
Guru Maharaja: With a sense of urgency and so on and so forth. So I mean, yes, some understanding that it can be complicated in one sense and frustrating, as you say, but the more one becomes grounded in one's practice and in the theory, which is important, which will help to ground one in the practice, and then the practice itself which can afford one experience, it can really give one the kind of roots in the transcendent ideal that enable one to function in the empirical day to day reality very well. Because to function well in the world is to be detached from it in some measure. That's what materialistic people also say, because they say the truth lies in the objective perspective. The objective perspective is one of detachment. Now, detachment doesn't have to be as cold as it sounds really. It's really the first step in actual love, because we become detached for example from seeing others as objects, the world as an object for my gratification. Seeing it for what it is, having its own life, and being a participant in all of that.
Psychologically speaking its thought to be, we are told to not get into a relationship until we are a little bit self-sufficient, a little bit detached so to speak. If you're too attached then you are just trying to make your life work by attaching things to it, and you're objectifying everything around you and you're putting yourself in the center that much more, which is not where you actually preside. So anyway, the point being that the more we, the more our theoretical grasp improves, arguably the better our practice will be, And the better our practice will be the more we will be grounded in some experience that enables us to work in the world fully, if you will, and passionately, fully knowing that it's not the full or even accurate picture. It's a dimension of consciousness that I'm in. Let me be fully in it, fully functioning in it, while being rooted in the transcendental perspective. That's just what it means to be a sadhaka, a transcendentalist. My world view, what are you? Are you a communist, a capitalist, socialist, a sexist, or what are you? Are you racist?
[Gopalnandini chuckles]
I'm a transcendentalist! That's what I am, that's my perspective. Then, you know, there comes a time when you healthy, naturally, helpfully, organically, in a balanced way, as a transcendentalist step into that fourth dimension more readily. Then he or she may start to appear practically speaking more as a transcendentalist from an objective point of view, because he or she is not as involved in the day to day, maybe getting the kids off to school, or you know, whatever type of activities, a more contemplative lifestyle and so forth. But at the same time, in bhakti then there is the fifth dimension. Thus we can find transcendentalists like Bhaktivinode, he had twelve children, fully active as a ;magistrate, and so on and so forth. Of course in the end he did also retire for the last four years of his life. But anyway, it's a difficult kind of a frustrating kind of a, you know... You have a certain perspective and you're convinced about it for good reason and the world is different (??? 53:54 course).
Gopalnandini: Right. I feel like kind of even shying away from practices more, because I think if it's difficult now, then what to speak of when you get further in? But I think really what you are saying is that if you go further...
Guru Maharaja: You're wrong about that, yeah.
Gopalnandini: ...it's actually a comfort and it's actually easier.
Guru Maharaja: Yes, you will actually be more adept in playing a role if you know it's only a role.
Gopalnandini: Right.
Guru Maharaja: And you know if I got this role to play, for example. if I can do that rooted in the reality that it's just a role I'm playing I could play it very well and I could not get lost in the role, so to speak, in ways that I become less effective, so to speak, in that role. So yeah, the bigger picture, you got to live in the bigger picture. Ok.
Gopalnandini: Yes, thank you, Guru Maharaja.
(...) Atmananda: [chuckles] My question is about the deity, the arca vigraha. I've read sometimes... I'm reading this book by OBL Kapoor, Experiences In Bhakti, and he's giving a lot of examples of reciprocation of the deity with the devotee, and he is saying that the deity is hungry and the devotee is feeding the deity, like that's the experience of Krishna in relationship to the love of the devotee.
Guru Maharaja: Can you say that again? The deity is hungry you say?
Atmananda: Well, in relationship with the devotee who has love for the deity, and the deity may experience hunger or cold, things like that. And the devotee feeds the deity and clothes the deity and like that. But I was thinking like, when I look at the deity I think he doesn't need anything, because he is Krishna. He is like atmarama.
Guru Maharaja: [chuckles] That's the fourth dimension. You got to get into the fifth dimension.
Atmananda: Aha, ok.
Guru Maharaja: That's the difference, yeah. He doesn't need anything, he doesn't need a temple, he doesn't need your worship. So you know, the fifth dimension, or four and a half, Vaikuntha I guess you can call four and a half. In Goloka Krishna in actually needy. That's how to look at it. The devotee will think, I'm hungry so Krishna must be hungry.
Atmananda: Yeah, that was the way he described it. The devotee feels hungry, but he doesn't think he's hungry, he thinks Krishna is hungry. Or he feels cold and he thinks Krishna is cold.
Guru Maharaja: Krishna says in the Gita that he is the fire of digestion so from the Krishna conscious perspective, when one gets hungry one thinks Krishna is hungry. He is the fire of digestion. He is calling for food, I should feed him. One could feed oneself at that point and think I'm offering food to Krishna. Exrrarordinary devotees act differently at times than kanistha-adhikaris offering on a plate and doing the ritual and so on and so forth. But this is the latter stage. It's a beautiful way of thinking about it and so forth. There's deity worship that is in the realm of sadhana and there is deity worship in the realm of bhava. In the realm of bhava you can have that type of experience. The devote, servitor, is hungry and he is identified, he doesn't think, Krishna says in the Gita I'm the fire of digestion, hmm, that means Krishna is hungry. He does it naturally, he is just identified in that way, Krishna must be hungry, and so he offers. That's when the realm of ritual, as I often call it, deity worship, becomes more than a means to and end. The symbolic representation of the ideal, not a symbolic representation of impersonalism, but a representation of the ideal of bhakti-rasa, and it becomes bhakti-rasa. So there is deity worship, arcana, in sadhana and arcana in bhava. And he is probably drawing from stories of bhava bhaktas relationship with the deity. Like Sanatan Goswami and the story of the deity hanging from the tree, he was offering him unleavened, unsalted bread, and the deity asked, can I get some salt? Then he said first you ask for salt, if I get that, then you are going to want ghee, and I'm just a poor person, you have to accept on my terms. Then Krishna arranged for a salt boat, merchant, to get stuck in the Yamuna. And then Krishna appeared and freed him as a young boy and the man on his way back gave the proceeds of the salt sales to Sanatan Goswami to build a temple for the deity, that's Madan Mohan. so those kinds of stories, right?
Atmananda: Yes, he actually told that story.
Guru Maharaja: Oh, he probably did it better than me. That was just a brief remembrance of it, paraphrasing.
Atmananda: So, but in the, I mean, can you think like that, can anyone just think like that, like if I feel hungry then I offer food to Krishna?
Guru Maharaja: That would be good for you, yes. Yes, of course. Ok. So I'll be the moderator here. Oh, it's 9:37 so we have gone a little bit overtime. Anyway, it was nice to talk to you, I'm sorry I went on as long as I did and didn't give you a chance to ask questions, for those of you who may have had them, but expecting to be available next week, so I look forward to your company then. Gaura Haribol.
Atmananda: Haribol.