Tattva-viveka
different approaches to the bhakti process
Shyam Gopal Das - October 5, 2004 8:11 am
I just got an email from "the president of the local iskcon nama hatta." I sometimes visit this nama hatta, but am not too close with the devotees, so I emailed them explaining my initiation. I got a reply where he said it is not usual for people visiting iskcon preaching centers to take initiation outside of iskcon. One of the reasons he gave for this leaves me a bit wondering about what he means. Could anyone clarify the following?:
He writes that iskcon is based on preaching while the gaudiya math on bhajan and lila-smaranam. He writes that both paths are valid though for the western devotees Srila Prabhupada instigated preaching because if one is not pure, lila smaranam may be easily confused with maya-smaranam.
(his other argument for it being unusual to take initiation outside iskon was that I could commit aparadhe to disciples and grand disciples of Srila Prabhupada, because it could appear unthankful to Prabhupada)
I am allowed to come to the nama hatta, but i have to respect iskcon's rules and am not allowed to invite people to gaudiya math meetings and to inspire people to take initiation outside of iskcon.
Audarya-lila Dasa - October 5, 2004 4:51 pm
These comments are based on politics, not spirituality. How is it offensive to Srila Prabhupada to take initiation from his disciple? How would this be offensive to his other disciples or their disciples? This is simply nonsense.
The reality is that you are going to be yourself and people will be interested in who you are. You cannot suppress that. The real goal of all devotees should be to help others if they understand what 'preaching' is. Guru Maharaja says that real preaching is an overflow from one's practice. It is that which truly inspires others to engage in devotional practices. This idea that places such emphasis on which institution one will be in is a material consideration and misses the real important issue - wherever one gets inspiration to serve they should go there. It is really this type of 'preaching' that is offensive because it is aimed at discrediting others and making them out to be less than spiritual and that for 'real spiritual life based on preaching' one will have to find inspiration in Iskcon. This is really foolish and apasiddhantic. Someone should really teach the proper siddhanta in Iskcon so that they don't go 'preaching' this type of nonsense.
What is the real message that you are being given? You are now an outsider and you should keep quiet about your affiliation because you may cause others to follow you. But the reality is that what has inspired you, if it takes root and develops, will inspire others as well. It is not something which can be legislated. If people see your devotion and enthusiasm for Krsna consciousness they will want to know from where it comes. This is quite natural.
You have to follow your own heart. If going to Nama Hatta programs helps you in your spiritual life you should go. You should be courteous to your hosts and not disrupt their gatherings with politics, which is what they are worried about.
It may be offensive to purposefully go to Iskcon gatherings and try to 'preach' to or 'convert' others. This seems to be their worry.
I don't know what this person is talking about when he says that in Gaudiya Matha the emphasis is on lila smaranam and bhajana. This is simply false. All of the missions throughout the world which are moving under the direct inspiration of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati are preaching missions with an emphasis on Nama Bhajana, not lila smaranam. But there is no doubt that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami wanted his sisyas to practice nama bhajana and dive deeply into their own practice. Preaching without genuine dedicated, concentrated and constant practice will have very little meaningful result.
Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa
Ramakesava - October 5, 2004 5:53 pm
These comments are based on politics, not spirituality. How is it offensive to Srila Prabhupada to take initiation from his disciple? How would this be offensive to his other disciples or their disciples? This is simply nonsense.
They used the same faulty argument against me.
ISKCON really needs a formal policy on this. That way "we" don't step on their toes, and the temple presidents, etc., can honour people's faith without fear of recrimination.
Swami - October 6, 2004 2:32 am
One interesting observation is that previously ISKCON members often declared such things as bhajana and lila smaranam deviant and "sahajiya." So this statement, one that I am hearing more and more, seems to represent an improved understanding of these things. More improvement is needed, as the two, preaching (sankirtana) and bhajana, are not divorced from one another.One leads naturally to the other and Prabhupada instituted both. What is 16 rounds of nama japa? Is it preaching? Did he preach against remembering Krsna's lilas (lila smaranam)?
Another point worth raising is that we, myself and those under my guidance, are not members of Gaudiya Math nor are we members of ISKCON.
As for gratitude, here is another twist. Where is the gratitude in ISKCON for all of the help that Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja gave selflessly at Srila Prabhupada's request?
Ken - October 6, 2004 2:57 am
Thank YOU, Maharaj. While the propensity here might be to underscore the differences that ISKCON proponents are inclined to point out, time after time you continue to rise above the fray by finding the unity within and among the diversity.
Thank you for finding the common ground that reminds us that bhakti is not about politics -- it's about the heart.
Shyam Gopal Das - October 6, 2004 1:54 pm
I've replied to him and he has send an email back. He has changed his wording and he's saying now that bhajan and preaching are not different approaches, but that there is a difference in emphasis. He writes that in iskcon they chant 16 rounds, study the vedas and do many other bhakti activities. However, the emphasis is on preaching. I wrote to him that the essence of preaching is chanting the holy names and that without doing this yourself preaching is fairly empty. To which he replied that is why we chant and preach at the same time.
I'll send another email more clearly explaining what I meant with this last point and see if we can get on the same wavelength.
Guru Maharaj, could you please explain what "preaching (sankirtana)" means? Do you mean preaching is broadcasting the glories of Krishna consciousness?
Swami - October 6, 2004 9:03 pm
Preaching, if it is to be considered one of the nine principle limbs of bhakti, must be kirtana. Sankirtana involves, among other things, doing kirtana widely/loudly, fully, collectively (sam), etc. In the vision of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada, this extends to distribution of the Word, if you will. Thus he coined the phrase brhat mrdunga (big drum) in reference to the printing press and thus book distribution.
As far as you are concerned, Srila Prabhupada called your guru the "incarnation of book distribution." So out of his kindness, compassion, and generosity he considered me to be an exceptional preacher. I think that it is fair to say that I am one of the leading preachers of Gaudiya Vaisnavism in the world today. Indeed, at the moment I am writing a commentary on Sri Siksastakam, inspired by my recent preaching in Finland. I wholeheartedly encourage my disciples to practice and preach in light of realization gained from their practice.
Otherwise it is actually offensive to say that one's gratitude for all that Srila Prabhupada has done to make Krsna consciouness accessible is in question if one does not take initiation from one of his disciples who are presently in ISKCON. As Audarya-lila has pointed out, and as Srila Prabhupada himself teaches, initiation is based upon faith. If one's faith in nama dharma awakens in relation to a preacher outside of ISKCON, one is bound by Guadiya siddhanta to take initiation from him or her. To do otherwise in the name of showing gratitude to Srila Prabhupada would be to go against his own siksa. Do you think he would be pleased by this display of ignorance and sentimetality in the name of gratitude? Is his mission to spread ISKCON as some now understand it replete the policies in question, or is it to spread Krsna consciousness?
If one questions where my gratitude is in leaving ISKCON, it must be said that another of its post Prabhupada policies that was not Krsna conscious is behind this. Needless to say, I have much to say about that policy.
So now its your turn. Preach. Or does preaching to ISKCON not count as preaching?
Dayal Govinda Dasa - October 6, 2004 9:56 pm
He has changed his wording and he's saying now that bhajan and preaching are not different approaches, but that there is a difference in emphasis
It's interesting that he has changed his tune, and he's correct in some ways. Preaching and bhajan may be seen to be different approaches to our tradition, with those who emphasise preaching being termed "Gostyanandis" and those who emphasise bhajan, "bhajananandis".
This is generally true between our lineage (the Bhaktivinoda parivara) and other lineages, where renunciates take Babaji vesa and take up a life of (almost) solitary bhajan. Not between ISKCON and the Gaudiya matha though.
Even in those situations, it is not that one who has taken to a life of bhajan will never preach, nor that one taken to a life of preaching will do no bhajan. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Guru maharaja was once asked about Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji maharaja and akincana Krsna dasa babaji maharaja, how they became Siddha if the Yuga Dharma is Sankirtana yet all they did was Bhajan?
Guru maharaja replied that, for starters, we know only of the latter portion of Gaura Kisora dasa babaji's life, the portion where he was manifesting the pastimes of a paramahamsa in Navadvipa. We hear very little if anything about his early life, who is to say that he did no preaching at all before retiring to the Dhama?
Secondly, Guru maharaja pointed out the one person who Mahaprabhu informed us was the embodiment of Sankirtana, Sri Haridas Thakur!
Did the Thakur have a wide preaching campaign? No, but his chanting of 3 lacs of Hari nama daily was Sankirtana in the fullest sense.
The idea is that preaching is for a purpose, yes to attract people to Gaudiya Vaisnavism, but also to purify ourselves.
Our present idea of Sankirtana comes from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, part of whose innovations was to conceive of Preaching (including printing and distributing books) as 'Sankirtana'. Part of the reasoning for this is that the vast majority of people do not have enough purity to simply sit and chant for hours on end. Preaching, he reasoned, takes full use of our mental faculty to the point where we cannot be thinking of anything else whilst so engaged. This will, if done with the proper intentions, purify us to the point that we can fully take advantage of out time spent chanting, and this will, in turn, overflow into our preaching etc etc.
It is interesting that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta seemingly went about his practice in reverse. He spent almost 10 years in bhajan life, chanting 3 lacs a day, in order to complete his vow of chanting a billion names. It was after this that he started his preaching mission, Sri Gaudiya Matha and took the stance he did against those who engaged in imitative bhajan.
Some pertinant quotes from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta:
Just as this great external mansion, the Gaudiya Matha, has been built to establish internal hari-bhajan in this world quite a few books have to be written and published. The temple which is within the books and the temple which is within the devotees are more important than the temple built with bricks and stones, because by constructing those temples hari-katha can be preached in this world much longer.
“I shall give up chanting the Lord’s name publicly in kirtan and retire to solitude, thus smearing myself with worldly honor.” Dear mind, what is the good of seeking such so-called glory? I will always remind you that the great soul Madhavendra Puri never deceived himself in that regard by committing theft in his own storehouse of perception the way you do.
This humble servant of Radha and Her beloved Krsna always hopes for kirtan, and he begs all to loudly sing the names of Lord Hari. The transcendental power of congregational chanting automatically awakens remembrance of the Lord and His divine pastimes in relation to one’s own eternal spiritual form. Only at that time does it become possible to go off to a solitary place and engage in the confidential worship of Their Lordships.
A very pertinant quote from Srila Prabhupada: (emphasis mine)
Simply chant Hare Krsna. Kirtaniya sada hari [Cc. Adi 17.31]. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life. Even didn't care for anything, no responsibility. "My only business is chanting." That is... You preach for some time. Then you simply engage in chanting. Preaching means to make him strong, preaching, to become firmly convinced in Krsna consciousness. That is preaching. So when he is firmly convinced, then he can give up preaching and sit down and simply chant. Not in the beginning. That is imitation. He must be firmly convinced. So we have to study Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life. Except—this is the clear and simple truth—except chanting Hare Krsna mantra, there is no other business of the human being. So this preaching is also chanting Hare Krsna mantra. This is preaching. That has been shown by all the disciples of Caitanya Mahäprabhu. All the Gosvamis, Haridasa Thakura and others, only did that, how to develop Krsna consciousness, no other business.
I think that in ISKCON the emphasis has shifted to a very unnatural degree, even to the point where some are 'preaching' that one should preach even at the cost of ones own advancement.
As Guru maharaja has ponted out so many times before, preaching is the overflow from practice. How could there possibly be preaching (in any substantial way that will capture people hearts) without the fuel of sadhana?
I hope this hasn't been too long and unwieldy, there's alot to say though.
Dayal Govinda dasa brahmacari
Shyam Gopal Das - October 9, 2004 7:43 am
Thank you, Guru Maharaj, for your reply it has been very helpful. I want to make clear that this email conversation does not affect my trust in you at all. I just hope that this nama hatta leader gets a little bit of an idea what it is to think outside of the box called iskon.
Dayal Govinda Prabhu, thank you too for your extensive reply!
I wrote him another email and just received one back. It seems he does not want to see my points at all. A selection of replys he has given me:
He didn't agree with me that preaching falls under sankirtana, rather he says: "everything a Krishna conscious person does is preaching and sankirtana is a part of that"
I also wrote to him that if we don't fill the barrel of our hearts we won't be able to preach effectively, because nothing flows out of an empty barrel. To which he replied: "when we convey the words of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna, our preaching will always be pure."
I told him more or less that if we go against siksa and do not take initiation because of the organization, this goes against Prabhupada's siksa and siddhanta.
He replies: "Prabhupada's siksa was 'never leave iskcon' This instruction counts for his disciples as well as their disciples. Because ultimately it was Prabhupada who awakened Krishna consciuosness within us thus his siksa transcends the siksa of his disciples."
Radhanama Dasa - October 9, 2004 8:53 am
Prabhupada's siksa was 'never leave iskcon'
Although I know every word that Srila Prabhupada said is not contained in the VedaBase, doing a search of this exact quote "never leave iskcon" only brought back 2 results. One a 1989 Vyasa Puja entry by New Mayapur in France, and the other being in the Lilamrita written by Satsvarupa Goswami but is not a direct quote, NEITHER are direct from Srila Prabhupada. Also i re-worded the search to include "don't leave ISKCON" that returned nothing. Sorry, i didn't mean to get all junior detective.
I get a bit irritated by the "our way or the highway" responses sometimes recieved from ISKCON. I always felt like Srila Prabhupada's emphasis was on practicing Krishna Conciousness, not which group you practiced it in. Please, those of you that actually spent time with him, correct me if i'm wrong. Maybe i'm missing something in drwing this conclusion? but i don't feel like i am.
Sorry for the rant, i hope i have not offended anyone in any manner.
Shyam Gopal Das - October 9, 2004 11:50 am
When searching through the Bhagavad Gita, I came across the following point made by Srila Prabhupada in his purport to verse 6 in ch 15:
"One has to associate himself with devotees, those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One should search out a society dedicated to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and learn how to discharge devotional service. In this way he can cut off his attachment to the material world. One cannot become detached from the attraction of the material world simply by dressing himself in saffron cloth. He must become attached to the devotional service of the Lord. " (Emphasis mine)
Srila Prabhupada does not state here ISKCON explicitly. It could be any Krishna conscious group. Moreover, I think that the saffron cloth could also be extended to mean that you can't become detached just by being within an organization, by focusing on the external.
This also reminds me of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's essay called "Organized Religion" wherein he says smth to the extent of that mechanistic and static organizations dam the currents of spirituality.
Shyam Gopal Das - October 9, 2004 2:42 pm
I'd also like to share the chapter "Bhajana - Real and Apparent" from the book Sermons of the Guardian of Devotion by Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj located at http://www.mandala.com.au/sermons2/3.htm
This relates pretty well to what we have previously discussed here, I think.
Swami - October 9, 2004 5:32 pm
He didn't agree with me that preaching falls under sankirtana, rather he says: "everything a Krishna conscious person does is preaching and sankirtana is a part of that"
I also wrote to him that if we don't fill the barrel of our hearts we won't be able to preach effectively, because nothing flows out of an empty barrel. To which he replied: "when we convey the words of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna, our preaching will always be pure."
"Prabhupada's siksa was 'never leave iskcon' This instruction counts for his disciples as well as their disciples. Because ultimately it was Prabhupada who awakened Krishna consciuosness within us thus his siksa transcends the siksa of his disciples."
1. I guess we are all preaching then.
2. Prabhupada condemned parroting in the name of preaching—mere repetation without realization.
3. How does it follow that becasue Prabhupada awakened Krsan consciousness is all of us, his siksa transcends that of his disciples? As others have pointed out, where does the siksa never to leave ISKCON appear, and if it does appear somewhere, how does one justify making it the pivital instruction around which all other siksa must revolve? What if one is faced with "never leave" ISKCON and "never offend Vaisanvas," when the mandate to never leave ISKCON implicates one in Vaisnava aparadha becasue the admistrators of ISKCON after Prabhupada's departure institute a policy of Vaisnava aparadha?
Madangopal - October 9, 2004 7:16 pm
As far as Srila Prabhupada demanding that one not leave ISKCON, this is another instance of the abuse of "Prabhupada said."... if he even said that. To take Prabhupada's statements and make them ALL absolute instructions is impersonalism. He instructed people according to their time, place and circumstance. His general preaching of the principles of bhakti can be applied to everyone, but still one will need the help of a living guru to apply those principles to our individual circumstance.
There is another trend taking root in ISKCON that I feel is very dangerous. I'm not sure if it is still the case, but many ISKCON guru's started to include "staying in ISKCON" as a 5th vow at the harinama initiation. My initiation was such. With the fear and guilt already surrounding breaking the "regulative principles" as they were laid out by Srila Prabhupada almost 40 years ago (that is a long time ago), to include allegiance to an organization as a life long vow is manipulative in the extreme. I would add that fear and guilt is not the proper way to view one's initiation vows, but it is nontheless a persistent result of wrong-headed type of preaching. Fear and guilt about leaving an organization takes the emphasis of true spiritual life out of focus and can cause great harm to the spritual aspirant. How misdirected and sad!
Mathura-natha Das - October 10, 2004 5:46 pm
During one morning when I was taking breakfast, I was reading Hari Sauris Trancendental Diary vol.1. On page 237 we can read about Tusta Krishna Swami and Siddha Swarupananda Goswami. For those of you who don't know, these two left ISKCON during Prabhupadas time. And a reason for their departure was that they did'nt like certain methods of book distribution and the managerial structure within ISKCON. Anyhow, one fellow was attracted to these 'renegades' preaching and asked Prabhupada if it's proper to attend their lectures and kirtanas. I quote "There is no reson why you cannot associate with any of my disciples, providing that they adhere to our principles /.../ I have no objection. Sometimes there will be a little missunderstanding between Godbrothers, that is even going on among liberated souls. What is important is that everyone must engage in Krishans service under the direction of the spiritual master." So if we stick to the policy that "Prabhupada said...", then we are allright! 
Mathura-natha Das - October 10, 2004 5:48 pm
the quoted is Prabhupada, sorry for beeing too cloudy in my writing...
Shyam Gopal Das - October 10, 2004 6:26 pm
Today I went to the nama hatta after not having been for months. It was interesting. The Nama hatta leader did not mention I was initiated and skipped me when he asked everybody about their spiritual progress. Of course he knew what I was going to say since we had this email conversation. But Krishna works in mysterious ways, because after his lecture on the Gita which was not bad actually, somebody asked a question about the parampara and other organizations, which forced the nh leader to say something nice about everybody outside iskcon. I was smiling inside when he spoke. I could hear him say things from our email discussion, points I had written to him. Though he ended with the note that we need not go outside iskcon because everything is already in there and he added that Gurus outside Srila Prabhupada's lineage have more room in determining the amount of rounds a disciple should chant. Since Srila Prabhupada said 16 rounds and no less. Well....