Tattva-viveka
Guru Falldown
Forrest - October 20, 2004 5:55 pm
Hare Krishna all. I just joined this forum recently. It is very nice to have the association of you all here.
To explain my question I feel that I need to give a little background. Up untill about 2-3 months ago I have been living full time in ISKCON asrams, serving mainly as a pujari. I would say that for the last 6-8 months I have been pulling away from ISKCON for various reasons.
I was initiated in '97 by a guru in ISKCON. Just a week or so ago I got news that he has admitted to not following certain regulative principles. He has asked his disciples to not see him as guru anymore. My feelings about this are very mixed.
On one side I felt relieved and released. For sometime I have seen that my connection with him is not very deep. Through writing one of you here I started to read the books of Sridhara Maharaja. The message of Sridhara Maharaja had a very deep impact on me. Gradually I started to hear more and more from and about Tripurari Swami. I felt attracted and inclined to him almost immediately. I was very eager to come closer to his side, but I was very nervous what would be the reaction of my spiritual master and my godsiblings. So, when I heard of his falldown I felt relieved.
At the same time, it is very hard to deal with because I served under him for going on nine years. I tried *very* hard to please him. Looking back my understanding of the guru/disciple relationship was not very well developed. I feel that overall the relationship was primarily an institutional one. But still, it is still difficult in some ways to deal with his falldown.
I do not have an exact question, but I would be interested to hear the devotees thoughts about this issue. Perhaps there are some devotees that have gone through a similar situation.
your servant,
forrest
Audarya-lila Dasa - October 20, 2004 6:46 pm
Dear Forest,
I feel very deeply for you regarding your situation and what you must be going through. My advice to you is to continue to respect the person who has helped you for so many years in your devotional life and pray that he will advance and that the impediments in his path will be removed. His situation now doesn't negate all the help he has given you in the form of instructions that have inspired you to progress in devotional service.
It's really a very difficult situation you are in. We all come to Krsna consciousness in need of good association and guidance. The reality is that it is difficult to find a genuine sadhu and many people are confused about that. It is not enough that one is in a particular institution and has 'practiced' devotional service for x number of years. What is their level of attainment? No one should pose as a spiritual master without being genuinely Krsna conscious. It is not a matter of seniority or anything else. It is really a matter of sincerity and genuine attainment.
That is not to say that even the least advanced of us have nothing to give - we do, and we should give to others whatever we have - but we have to be honest with ourselves and others otherwise it is all ruined. Srila Prabhupada called this type of interaction one of 'the cheaters and the cheated'.'
Since you are reading Srila Sridhara Maharaja's books I would like to recommend that you read Sri Guru and His Grace. This is a wonderful book that will really help you sort things out. I found it really instructive how he came to give out mercy to others in the form of giving diksha.
Here is a quote from some of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's writings that I thought would be helpful in terms of the type of relationship we should try to develop with our Guru:
"The spiritual master and the Vaishnava are transcendental temples. The Supreme Lord does not manifest himself just anywhere. He reveals himself only through the spiritual master and the Vaishnava. Many people would like to see God, but they do not know that one only sees God through seeing the guru. If there were no such thing as the spiritual master in this world, there would be no such thing as devotion either. The spiritual master is the connecting thread that leads to the vision of God. The Supreme Lord shows his mercy to the conditioned souls by sending his best servants or Vaishnavas into this world. The spiritual master is the concrete form of his mercy.
The spiritual master is our closest friend and relative. This is why it is not enough to serve the guru at a respectful distance, acting out of a sense of duty alone. One has to serve with vizrambha, a combination of deep faith and loving affection. This attitude will have the most auspicious results.
We need the spiritual master even more than we need Krishna. Srila Gauranga Deva is the spiritual master of all spiritual masters. He taught us that even though the spiritual master and the Supreme Lord are in no way different, the guru is positioned at the pinnacle of the category of devotee. There is no way to achieve auspiciousness except through service to the spiritual master."
I have a similar background to yours in some ways so I really do understand what you are going though. The main thing is to chant attentively and sincerely. There is no other way. Otherwise how will we know what to do? Krsna from within will inspire us how to act and where to go. He will reveal where to lay our heads and hearts. Here is a pertinent quote for you:
kRSNa jadi kRpA karen kono bhAgyavAne
guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane
When Krishna decides to be kind to some fortunate soul, then he personally directs that person from within as the Supersoul and from without as the spiritual master. (CC 2.22.47)
Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa
Babhru Das - October 20, 2004 9:39 pm
Forrest, I also feel deeply for you. I understand both your relief and and pain to some extent. I met this devotee on a couple of occasions and had some email discussions with him from time to time. My relationship with him has always been personal, not institutional. I think that realtionships among devotees, including those among disciples and their gurus, should be primarily personal. I think the society of devotees, both in ISKCON and outside, would have taken a very different shape over that last 20-odd years if that were the case. I think things would have also been almostg unimaginably different if ISKCON's leaders had shown higher regard for Srila Sridhar Maharaja and his instructions.
I have long averred that a great many of the problems in ISKCON can be traced to what I have called a culture of Vaishnava aparadha in that institution. I know that this devotee has been known for intemperate comments about preachers outside ISKCON. I mention this because I see that he addressed his letter of resignation to devotees in and outside ISKCON. I see that as a ray of hope for those devotees serving in ISKCON and for those whose service is affected by ISKCON in one way or another. And since he has come forward to air his difficulties, I think the best way for the rest of us to respond is with generosity and compassion.
For ourselves, I suggest that we become humble and help each other discuss important issues related to our spiritual progress and avoid sadhu ninda. We have the good fortune of associating with sincere Vaishnavas here, and of being open to Tripurari Maharaja's guidance. Let's take the best advantage of that good fortune.
Forrest - October 20, 2004 10:17 pm
Thank you both for your comments very much. I really appreciate your points. I particularly appreciated the quote from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati that you gave Audarya-lila.
Regarding the point of personal relationship between devotees, I feel that is a very good point. My spiritual master often made attempts to develop such a relationship. In many ways, I feel that he did that very well. It seems to me that what made me feel that the relationship was impersonal and institutional, in a sense, is what you, Babhru Prabhu, refer to as a "culture of Vaishnava aparadha". My spiritual master was/is(?) very active in that culture, devotees inside of ISKCON were also not saved from that mood. I never felt comfortable with this. For me it created automatically a feeling of distance and distrust.
I have read Sri Guru and His Grace. Reading it did indeed help me to understand and deal with the situation. In ISKCON there is a very unclear understanding of guru tattva. It seems to me that the overall mood is seeing the guru basically as an institutional acarya. That creates a personality cult of sorts. It helped me very much to understand the more dynamic nature of guru. There was actually a point where I was feeling that if this, ISKCON and its way, is what being a Krishna bhakta is all about, then I do not want any part of it. Around that time a devotee recommended reading the work of Sridhara Maharaja. I was, and am, completely enchanted by his presentation. I feel that he saved my spiritual life.
I appreciated your point Audarya-lila about maintaining a mood of respect. There was a point for me that I started to emphasize in my mind what this devotee, my spiritual master, had indeed done for me. I try to hold those points in my heart and at the same time seek shelter in others that are more capable of providing the shelter that I am looking for.
Again, thanks for your comments. I feel very happy and honored to be here and to have your association.
ys,
forrest
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - October 20, 2004 11:02 pm
I will give you my take on that. It’s not supported by shastras or anything, it’s just my sentiment. I don’t see what the problem is. I don’t feel that Guru can ever fail lower then disciple is. If your math teacher cannot solve a problem of high difficulty or just retires from teaching all together, does it mean all the knowledge you’ve got from him is faulty? Did he betray you by his retirement? Probably not. He was guiding you through many years; you made great advancement because of that. He was giving you good instructions and that what counts. Now he found enough courage to tell you the truth, to release you, so you can find more good guidance somewhere else, so you can continue your spiritual progress. Is there is a connection between Guru's own level of advancement and the potential advancement of his disciple? Genuine teacher will be very happy if his student can surpass him. Everyone makes mistakes – it’s the condition we are in, love makes you forgive and forget. Your devotion is what ultimately counts.
Babhru Das - October 20, 2004 11:29 pm
I did want to echo Audarya-lila's advice to maintain your appreciation of what he did give you. And I think it's worth our time to commend him for the courage it took to admit that he had been deviating for some time, and for not blaming anyone else. If ISKCON had culture that encouraged more candor and openness, perhaps he could have gotten some help years ago, or he would have been cautioned not to rush in to accepting responsibilities he wasn't really prepared for. I know that his older son felt for a long time that his father had neglected him in favor of developing his position in ISKCON.
Bhakta Ivar - October 21, 2004 9:41 am
I know that his older son felt for a long time that his father had neglected him in favor of developing his position in ISKCON.
Hopefully he will pay more attention to his children now. That will be good for his own spiritual growth as well.
Caitanya-daya Dd - October 21, 2004 1:47 pm
Forrest, I too relate v strongly to what you are going through. My initiating spiritual master had a falldown but instead of coming clean with it, he covered it up for a year before someone leaked it out. I was already on the "out" with him (for several reasons i won't get into), but you can imagine the shock i felt when I found out this heavy piece of information.
I took shelter of him at the tender age of 16, and i personally served him for years in his service of preaching. So I too relate to your saying, "I tried 'very' hard to please him." And I too, "toward the end," lacked that connection with him.
It was definiitely a confusing time. Luckily for me, Krsna brought Tripurari Maharaja into my life. I was hesitant to read Sridhara Maharaja's books up until then (all that ISKCON conditioning--i'm sure you know what i'm talking about!), but by that point, i could have given a fig about the "contraband." I can't even begin to express what enlightenment was revealed to me by reading Sri Guru & His Grace. I'm glad you've read it too.
I revealed my heart to Guru Maharaja all the confusion i felt. He reminded me that guru, ultimately, is one--he/she reveals him/herself through different people, but the message is still the same. He told me to follow the one who inspires me the most, the one who gives me Krsna, and I should never forget what my initiating spiritual master gave me. But now he can no longer give me what i need, so i must move on. I must protect my bhakti-lata.
I struggled a lot with issues of loyalty, but what is this kind of loyalty to someone who is not giving me Krsna consciousness? Then it becomes purely sentiment.
Emotions will be there--that is inevitable--esp. since you have invested so much time and effort. I found what really helped me was to talk about my thoughts to my intimate associates. And, of course, revealing any sort of doubt still lingering in my heart to Guru Maharaja. And if you choose so, to any other senior, advanced Vaisnava. This is not a new issue, as you know. So we are not alone.
A personal note: one thing i like to think about is the last verse of "ohe vaisnava thakura":
krsna se tomara, krsna dite paro, tomara sakati ache
ami to' kangala, 'krsna 'krsna 'boli', dhai tava pache pache
"Krsna is yours, you have the power to give Him to me. I am simply running behind you shouting, 'Krsna! Krsna!'"
I say find someone who inspires you to do that! 
your humble servant,
caitanya-daya dasi
Babhru Das - October 21, 2004 4:34 pm
I was hesitant to read Sridhara Maharaja's books up until then (all that ISKCON conditioning--i'm sure you know what i'm talking about!), but by that point, i could have given a fig about the "contraband." I can't even begin to express what enlightenment was revealed to me by reading Sri Guru & His Grace. I'm glad you've read it too.
I also came to a point some years ago when I decided to openly flout the restrictions on what ISKCON members could read. Every year, America's librarians observe Banned Books Week. I had a t-shirt that had "I Read Banned Books" across the back, which I often wore to the temple. Some devotees asked me from time to time why I wore it, and what banned books I may have meant. I mentioned some often-banned materialistic literature, of course, such as To Kill a Mockingbird and The adventures of Huckleberry Finn. But I also took pains to mention Sri Guru and His Grace and some of Tripurari Maharaja's books. I guess I was able to get away with some things because so many of the devotees there had very high regard for me, and I made no pretense that I felt obliged to follow GBC laws that were counterproductive. Any attempt to rein me in would have backfired, as many congregational members, including the Indian$, would have raised heck. I was heartened to note that one old San Diego devotee, Gangamantri das, was attending Maharaja's talks at Karnamrita and Archana-siddhi's home.
Real loyalty to one's guru means being faithful to the ideal he (or she) was meant to inspire in us. It's possible to move on while acknowledging what benefit we got from serving that deovtee.
Forrest - October 21, 2004 6:29 pm
Caitanya-daya, thanks a lot for your entry. It seems that we have a *lot* in common. Knowing that really helps me a lot. Thanks for sharing.
Real loyalty to one's guru means being faithful to the ideal he (or she) was meant to inspire in us. It's possible to move on while acknowledging what benefit we got from serving that deovtee.
Very nice point Babhru. Thanks
Last night I read the article that has been posted on dipika about this. It was really hard to read. It brought up a lot of emotional pain. The way I found out about this situation is a godsister of mine called. She was very careful to be gentle and she did not say much at all. I had to pull details out of her. So, it was intense for me to read more about it. I want to thank you all for your comments and support.