Tattva-viveka
"Can I keep my bias in my next life?"
NrsinghaDas - November 3, 2004 10:39 pm
It is said that any advancement on the path to Krsna will stay with one and they will be given an oppertunity to progress from there in the future.
But does the kind of Krsna consciousness ideal one persues in a previous life, no matter how far along they get, determine the kind of Krsna consciousness that they will again come in contact with?
I feel that if one is developed in a certain ideal say Gaudiya Vaisnavism then they would naturaly contact that specific brand of Krsna consciousness and continue on.
But what about those who just see a Harinam party and join in or take prasadam, will that sukrti manifest again with a specific inclination twords the Sankirtan movement and Mahaprabhu or would it just bring them into contact with Krsna consciousness in a more general and unbiased way?
Dayal Govinda Dasa - November 5, 2004 10:34 pm
Narasingha das
Pranams
I'm going to answer your question but just wanted clarification on something before I do.
I was wondering in what way you were using the term 'Krsna consciousness' if not in relation to Gaudiya Vaisnavism?
Thanks
Dayal Govinda dasa
NrsinghaDas - November 7, 2004 3:23 am
I have a habbit of useing the term "Krsna consciousness" to mean any thing that has connection with the paravyoma.
It guess it would be more appropriate to say Vasudeva Consciousness.
Rereading my first post I can see that that should have been specified.
Like Hanuman we all know is eternally a Rama bhakta. So as a jiva is coming from the depths of material conditioning to eternal theism they will develop this consciousness over many lifetimes and at what point does it become set that this soul is Rama bhakta , or Vishnu bhakta, or Gaura bhakta, etc.
Dayal Govinda Dasa - November 11, 2004 12:27 am
It is said that any advancement on the path to Krsna will stay with one and they will be given an oppertunity to progress from there in the future.But does the kind of Krsna consciousness ideal one persues in a previous life, no matter how far along they get, determine the kind of Krsna consciousness that they will again come in contact with?
The first part of your question is a general rule about our spiritual practice, that is, any steps made along the path are never relinquished. This is to say that if one develops nistha in this life, next life they will appear to traverse the preceeding stages very quickly and take up their practice at nistha where they left off.
The second part of your question deals with a finer point of siddhanta, that of the svarupa of the Jiva. If I understand correctly, you are asking that if, for example, one is a Krsna bhakta in this life will one necessarily be a Krsna bhakta in his next life?
I'll answer this in regards to the part of your query posted below.
But what about those who just see a Harinam party and join in or take prasadam, will that sukrti manifest again with a specific inclination twords the Sankirtan movement and Mahaprabhu or would it just bring them into contact with Krsna consciousness in a more general and unbiased way?
Guru maharaja has explained that Mahaprabhu's preaching campaign was very broad given that he was also manifesting the function of the yuga avatar. The function of the yuga avatar is to initiate the sadhana for the yuga, which in this case is Harinama sankirtan. As such, many souls will be touched and awakened to their spiritual prospect though his movement but may not necessarily find their eternal position in the highest prospect of what he came to give.
In the Caitanya caritamrta it is described how Mahaprabhu came and wove a wreath of sankirtan and prema. It is due to this extreme act of magnanimity that souls in this age are able to realise their fullest potential (Vraja bhakti) simply by engaging in kirtan.
Other jivas may come in contact with his sankirtan movement only to eventually find attraction to other traditions such as the Ramanuja and Madhva sampradaya's, both of which have seen devotees join from previous involvement with Gaudiya vaisnavism. In their attraction to these other traditions, the jivas are simply responding to the calling of their hearts potential. After all, not every jiva is bound for Goloka, some are destined for Vaikuntha to be devotees of Rama or Narayana etc.
Ultimately it is up to Mahaprabhu and Krsna as to what our final position in service will be, but rest assured (as Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraj says) whatever position we find ourselves will be the best…for us.
daso 'smi
Dayal Govinda dasa
NrsinghaDas - November 11, 2004 2:12 am
Thank you very much Dayal Govinda prabhu for your answers.
I have another question, although I think it may already be partialy answered.
In my case I really think that I will be most fulfilled if I can eternally take root in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Due to lack of realization this desire is still dependent on my mental system. It is certainly something that I hope to hold on to and develop into something deeper, but I wonder the potential of that thought in its present stage. Is it enough that even if due to some great misfortune I were to die at this point of immaturity it could mercifully manifest again when my next oppertunity for devotional service arose?
your servent,
Nrsingha das
Vrindaranya Dasi - November 11, 2004 6:38 pm
Yes, most likely it will manifest again. But don't take a risk; take root in Gaudiya Vaishnavism now.
Ys,
Vrindaranya
Forrest - November 19, 2004 5:29 am
Other jivas may come in contact with his sankirtan movement only to eventually find attraction to other traditions such as the Ramanuja and Madhva sampradaya's, both of which have seen devotees join from previous involvement with Gaudiya vaisnavism. In their attraction to these other traditions, the jivas are simply responding to the calling of their hearts potential. After all, not every jiva is bound for Goloka, some are destined for Vaikuntha to be devotees of Rama or Narayana etc.Ultimately it is up to Mahaprabhu and Krsna as to what our final position in service will be, but rest assured (as Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraj says) whatever position we find ourselves will be the best…for us.
Wonderfully put Dayal Govinda. I have personally experienced devotees showing strong attraction to Sri vaisnavism after coming in contact with Gaudiya vaisnavism. At that that time it was very difficult for me to understand, as I think it was difficult for them to understand. There was a some friction on both sides due to misunderstanding.
Your points add some nice insight which is appreciated.
Guru-nistha Das - November 30, 2004 7:06 am
I was thinking, how about if a jiva changes from Vaishnavism to other religious tradition? Is it always considered going backwards, or can a jiva find her eternal position through another religion? Does every Jiva have to become a Vaishnava in order to be able to enter into the spiritual world?
Sincerely,
Gurunistha das
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - November 30, 2004 3:32 pm
The idea is which spiritual world you will enter, even Vaishnavism is a very broad path as well -- by worshiping Narayana in mood of awe and reverence you will end up at Vaikuntha Loka, but by worshiping Krsna in Vraj you will go to Goloka Vrindavana. As Gaudiya Vaishnavas and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu followers we know in what lila we want to spend eternity, don't we?
Guru-nistha Das - November 30, 2004 6:25 pm
"As Gaudiya Vaishnavas and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu followers we know in what lila we want to spend eternity, don't we? "
Definately, I have no doubt about that.
Maybe I phrased my question a bit poorly.
I was interested in the position of a Jiva who has been a very devout follower of some other theistic path than Vaishnavism. For example a very devoted muslim, is it possible for her to transcend material life and if yes, what happens when she leaves her body?
I´m asking this because I have friends who follow different religions and I´d like to know our view on their spiritual standing.
Forrest - November 30, 2004 7:08 pm
I was thinking, how about if a jiva changes from Vaishnavism to other religious tradition? Is it always considered going backwards, or can a jiva find her eternal position through another religion? Does every Jiva have to become a Vaishnava in order to be able to enter into the spiritual world?
Personally I do not consider a person having connection with another *Vaisnava* tradition to be going "backwards." For those that seek shelter in Vaikuntha by affectionately serving Narayana with awe and reverence there is no better gain. Or?
But, when one develops a connection with a "mundane" tradition that does not truly offer substantial shelter I do see it as a step backwards. Through those processes one does not get a visa to the Deathless Land. There is indeed reference in sastra that one must be a vaisnava to enter the other realm in a substantial way. It is said that one may approach the Brahmajyoti, the effulgence of the spiritual world, but one must return to this world after sometime, due to not taking hold of the Lord's lotus feet.
It may be an interesting point to note that in his Krsna-samhita Bhaktivinoda Thakur lists Christianity and Islam as being Vaisnava traditions. I would inject that with these and many other Vaisnava traditions the essence has been lost due to various reasons, but mainly institutionalization. Many Vaisnava branches are dry, producing no fruit due to such institutionalization. With that in mind I would consider a shift to such dry branches of Vaisnavism as "going backwards."
But ultimately I find it is hard to judge the path of others in that way.
Interested to hear others thoughts on this...
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - November 30, 2004 7:47 pm
I was interested in the position of a Jiva who has been a very devout follower of some other theistic path than Vaishnavism.
Again, as I stated above, it will enter into one of the limitless spiritual worlds depending on the mood and style of worship. There are no "mundane" traditions. Your success depends only on your how devout you are. You follow the path which resonates with your heart. But it would be a terrible mistake to put limit on means of achieving the goal (in most cases it’s liberation, but again we are a little different then most). Christian statement "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me" caused a lot of death and destruction.
Bg 8.6:Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kunti, that state he will attain without fail.
At the time of death, our state of consciousness determines our next birth, or our destination is spiritual universe.
NrsinghaDas - November 30, 2004 10:29 pm
There is that one story about the Muslim who while being stabbed to death by a boar yelled "Haram!!" and went to Vaikuntha, (sometimes its said that he achived liberation but I have a strong impression in my mind of hearing that he specifically was able to enter Vakuntha). So theres always the consideration of causless mercy. 
There is also a chapter in Jaiva Dharma describing a conversation between the Vaisnavas and a Muslim (not the one about Deity worship), and they completely share the same understanding of Godhead, I dont remember the chapter maybe if someone knows it they can post it. So when Sria Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that Christianity and Islam are Vaisnava relegions I would assume he is reffering to a Muslim or a Christain whos conception of God and service to him is up to the standered of the muslim in Jaiva Dharma. In that conversation they go back and forth and explain their scriptures (Vedas & Koran) in such a way that eternal religion is established. It may be hard to find a Muslim who understands the Koran as well as Srila Bhaktvinoda. 
Guru-nistha Das - December 1, 2004 8:03 pm
Thank you for your replies.
If you still have patience with my ignorance, I would like to ask another question:
Forrest made an interesting remark that Bhaktivinoda considered Islam and Christianity to be Vaishnava traditions. Does this mean that the Bible and Coran are considered sabda pramana?
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 1, 2004 9:58 pm
It can be considered sabda pramana only within their respectable traditions. It’s not applicable to our tradition, we have our own books. We respect all traditions, but follow our own path.
Room Conversation May 12,1969
Allen Ginsberg: Well, then how would you adapt the Krsna chanting to Christianity? By seeing Krsna as Christ or Christ as Krsna and sounding Christ's image in Krsna's name?
Prabhupada: Krsna, Christ... Of course, this question was several times put to me. Christ says that "I am son of God." And Krsna says "I am God." So there is no difference. Son of God and God, we respect everyone. If I respect your father, I respect you also. Do you mean to say if I disrespect your father, you'll be pleased upon me? No. That is our philosophy. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that I am servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. So if anyone loves Krsna, he must love Lord Jesus Christ also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus Christ he must love Krsna. If he says, "Why shall I love Krsna? I shall love Jesus Christ," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus Christ? I shall love...", then he has also no knowledge. If one understands Krsna, then he will understand Jesus Christ. If one understands Jesus Christ, you'll understand Krsna.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, then do you think that the Hare Krsna chant could serve as an intermediary to link the religious tendencies of, both of Christianity and Muslim religions?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Any religion. Any religion. If he's serious about religion. If he takes the religion as a scapegoat, that is different thing. If he wants to understand religion and if he takes seriously to religion, then he will understand. We want serious persons. Now, according to Srimad-Bhagavatam, religion means creation of the laws of God. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [sB 6.3.19]. Laws of God. Who will deny it? Who will deny it? Any religion, Christian, Muhammadan or any. Who can deny that religion is the laws of God? Simple explanation. If you ask what is meant by religion, religion is laws of God. That's all. And if you want to know what is God, that is also replied. "The original source of everything." So one should try to understand in this way. But if one wants to remain in his compact ideas and does not want to go further, then it is very difficult. He should be open-minded and appreciating. Then everything is all right. We say, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, it is not that you are necessarily to chant Krsna, but if you have no suitable name, then chant Krsna. Why do you make differentiate. Every name is the same.
NrsinghaDas - December 11, 2004 12:58 am
This actually a different topic then the one I originaly started this thred about but it was simmilar so put in here.
I was listening to a cd and Swami after being asked about the jivas svarup said that in this tradition coming in the line of Bhaktivinoda we accept that it is already there but dormant. Then there was some discussion about wether it can change or not, and Swami said ultimatly we cant limit Krsna we have to accept that in the end He can do as He likes, and different acaryas have said different things. He then mentioned that Srila Sridhar Maharaj was of the opinion that it does not change and would sometimes give examples like Anupam who even after accepting theoreticly Krsna was highest couldnt give up Lord Rama.
So when I was reading Sri Guru and His Grace I came across a section where it says "We may have an attraction for Vrndavan and an inner awakening for service to Krsna in Goloka but if we associate with so many Vaikuntha sadhus, then we will be hurled down to Vaikuntha".
Is this to say that one can have an inner awakening of a desire for service in Vrndavan when thier svarup is actually part of Vaikuntha?
Or does it mean that one on the path of raganuga sadhana may have to go back down to ajata raganuga bhakti (vaidhi bhakti aimed at Vrndavan) for some time ?
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 11, 2004 1:37 am
What I have to say might be a total heresy, please correct me if it’s so, but bear with me for a while. Point of being in purified state/mood during the time of death has something to do with “like attracting like” metaphysical principle. Meaning, state of my subtle/casual bodies will determine my destination, what I will attract, what reality my consciousness will manifest. First question is, will it attract new gross body or will I have a spiritual destination? Then, question is what spiritual destination? Depending on the path/mood/style of worship you will go to the particular place. So based on idea of iron put in a fire becomes like fire, if we associate with so many Vaikuntha sadhus, then we will be hurled down to Vaikuntha because mood is very contagious thing, that’s why correct association is the key to the success. I'm not sure svarup can be localized.
Swami - December 11, 2004 5:13 am
Is this to say that one can have an inner awakening of a desire for service in Vrndavan when thier svarup is actually part of Vaikuntha?
Or does it mean that one on the path of raganuga sadhana may have to go back down to ajata raganuga bhakti (vaidhi bhakti aimed at Vrndavan) for some time ?
Neither of these conclusions is correct. "Hurrelled down" in Sri Guru and His Grace is being used as a figure of speech and should not be taken literally.
Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja is saying that although one may be eternally destined for Vrindavana, if one associates with Vaikuntha bhaktas one may be detoured to Vaikuntha. That is, whatever one’s spiritual destiny is, it will not awaken without the right kind of association. Thus we should be careful as to the association we keep. Association does not produce our svarupa, it is the catalyst needed for it to manifest. Along with association comes our practice. Practice makes perfect. That which one idealizes and aspires for will manifest only if one engages the sadhana that corresponds with one’s ideal.
Swami - December 11, 2004 5:17 am
Nanda-tanuja dasa,
You did pretty good with this answer, but I am not sure what you mean when you speak about localizing the svarupa.
NrsinghaDas - December 11, 2004 2:47 pm
Or does it mean that one on the path of raganuga sadhana may have to go back down to ajata raganuga bhakti (vaidhi bhakti aimed at Vrndavan) for some time ?
If I have understood you correctly what I was trying to say in the above quote was meant to be more along the lines of the answer that you gave in reply.
Although a person maybe bound for Vrndavana (raganuga bhakti), due to association with many Vaikuntha Bhaktas their ability to increase that attachment or even to maintain the degree of attachment that they have already aquired for the path of raganuga bhakti may become overshadowed by awe and reverence, in that sense they are "hurled down" to vaidhi bhakti (ajata raganuga) delaying thier progress.
I think that I was trying to say more or less the same thing.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 11, 2004 5:23 pm
I am not sure what you mean when you speak about localizing the svarupa.
I was replying to NrsinghaDas' question "Is this to say that one can have an inner awakening of a desire for service in Vrndavan when thier svarup is actually part of Vaikuntha?"
I’ve meant that svarupa, as the eternal particular relationship jiva has with the Lord, cannot be fixed to the particular place (ie Vaikuntha). Relationship is more mood then a place of service.
Swami - December 11, 2004 5:31 pm
The mood has a corresonding place. Indeed, the place is the mood and the mood is the place. To love God as an equal, as in the cae of the sakhya rasa of Vraja, would be out of place in Vaikuntha, more inotlerable.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 11, 2004 11:05 pm
Although a person maybe bound for Vrndavana (raganuga bhakti), due to association with many Vaikuntha Bhaktas their ability to increase that attachment or even to maintain the degree of attachment that they have already aquired for the path of raganuga bhakti may become overshadowed by awe and reverence, in that sense they are "hurled down" to vaidhi bhakti (ajata raganuga) delaying thier progress.I think that I was trying to say more or less the same thing.
You have essentially understood the point, but there is a subtle but important mistake. You equated vaidhi bhakti (ajata raganuga) with the vaidhi that leads to the awe and reverence of Vaikuntha. The general meaning of vaidhi bhakti is the process that leads to Vaikuntha, but the vaidhi bhakti that is synonymous with ajata raganuga does not lead to Vaikuntha. So it would be more accurate to say that someone may be hurled down to the conception of vaidhi that leads to Vaikuntha. The important point is that the vaidhi bhakti we follow (that is synonymous with ajata raganuga) is not the same as the vaidhi bhakti that leads to Vaikuntha.
On a side note, one would only be hurled down conceptually. In other words, if one has jata ruci, one could not lose that by association, so it is just someone in ajata ruci who would be affected.
Guru Maharaja has pointed out that Bhaktivinode Thakur and Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati were the first to use the term vaidhi bhakti for ajata raganuga bhakti, and they got criticism from people who did not understand how they were using the term. People thought that the Thakur did not understand bhakti tattva because vaidhi bhakti can never give raganuga. This is true, but when Bhaktivinode Thakur used the term vaidhi bhakti for ajata raganuga bhakti, he was using vaidhi in a general sense—a stage in which one's motivation for bhakti arises more from reasoning than the heart (raga). In this sense ajata raganuga bhakti is more akin to vaidhi than raganuga, but because it is in the context of raganuga bhakti it is a special kind of vaidhi that takes one to Goloka, not Vaikuntha.
Swami - December 11, 2004 11:42 pm
I hope everyone understands the important point Vrindaranya has made so well. Please ask for further clarification if not.
NrsinghaDas - December 12, 2004 1:46 am
Vrindaranya's answer is very clearly put. I was already somewhat aware of the differentiation between ajata raganuga and vaidhi bhakti but her answer was very clarifying and helpfull.
Since we are on the topic, Swami also mentions on that cd that one of the verses that Srila Sridhar Maharaj would give in support of the jivas svarupa being eternaly fixed was "nitya siddha krsna prema". The purport being that it is already there and it cannot be aquired at any point therefore it cannot change.
One way to see this could be that every jiva has a fixed svarupa corisponding with a certain manifestation of Godhead in the paravyoma that cannot change. And since all facets of Godhead are within Krsna then They are being reffered to here indirectly by using the words "krsna prema".
But still isnt it reasonable to say that in the verse "krsna prema" is directly reffering to Krsna Himself? If so wouldnt it mean that all jivas have a natural capacity for Vraj bhakti ?
Because Krsna is the fountain head He must also be the most comprehensive, so even if someones ishta deva was Lord Ramachandra, Lord Rama Himself remains a facet of Krsnas identity. So that persons svarupa in relation to Lord Rama would still have some connection with Krsna indirectly. Is it not possible that through the progression lila they will become drawn to the Krsna conception? If ones svarupa were to "change" twords the Krsna conception, would it actually be considered "changing" because Krsna is the actual origin.
This topic cannot be assertained by ones mind so please forgive any missaplication of logic on my part.
Shyam Gopal Das - December 12, 2004 11:12 am
What do "ajata" and "jata" mean?
Swami - December 12, 2004 2:44 pm
Jata means "born." Jata-ruci--in whom ruci is born/has appeared. Ajata-ruci--in whom ruci has not been born/has not appeared. In some places you will find the terms ajata-rati and jata-rati used. Rati means love or bhava.
Forrest - December 12, 2004 7:06 pm
Vrindaranya, I really appreciate your comment. It adds insight on an issue that I have been confused about for a long time.
You equated vaidhi bhakti (ajata raganuga) with the vaidhi that leads to the awe and reverence of Vaikuntha. The general meaning of vaidhi bhakti is the process that leads to Vaikuntha
This is exactly what I have always heard. That has caused me to be confused about how to practically understand my level of sadhana in relation to the goal of krsna-prema. Several times I have asked different devotees about these points. Their answers only led me to be more confused.
One reference that I have often seen used to explain vaidhi is the following:
Generally the worship of the Lord begins with the worship of Narayana, or Visnu, whereas the worship of Lord Krsna and Radha is most confidential. Lord Narayana is worshipable by the pancaratrika-vidhi, or regulative principles, whereas Lord Krsna is worshipable by the bhagavata-vidhi. No one can worship the Lord in the bhagavata-vidhi without going through the regulations of the pancaratrika-vidhi. Actually, neophyte devotees worship the Lord according to the pancaratrika-vidhi, or the regulative principles enjoined in the Narada-pancaratra. Radha-Krsna cannot be approached by the neophyte devotees; therefore temple worship according to regulative principles is offered to Laksmi-Narayana. Although there may be a Radha-Krsna vigraha, or form, the worship of the neophyte devotees is acceptable as Laksmi-Narayana worship. Worship according to the pancaratrika-vidhi is called vidhi-marga, and worship according to the bhagavata-vidhi principles is called raga-marga. The principles of raga-marga are especially meant for devotees who are elevated to the Vrndavana platform.
<Bhaktivedanta Purport SB 4.24.45-46>
I can understand that in early stages of sadhana one is not qualified to approach Radha-Krsna, but the idea that the worship is being accepted by Laksmi-Narayana confuses me. Indeed somehow the idea disturbs me. It is hard for me to understand how the worship of Laksmi-Narayana would at some point of development shift to the worship of Radha-Krsna. In other words, it is difficult for me to understand how vidhi-marga (as it is explained here) would shift to raga-marga.
I have never heard the phrase ajata raganuga before. Just the phrase changes my understanding of vaidhi bhakti. The goal is emphasized. It helps me understand what I am doing a lot more.
I would be very interested to hear the devotees understanding of the Bhaktivedanta Purport mentioned and how it relates to the points that Vrindaranya made.
Swami - December 12, 2004 10:21 pm
I think the spirit of this purport of Srila Prabhupada's is found in these words of Mahaprabhu to Sri Rupa:
upajiya baòe lata ‘brahmäëòa’ bhedi’ yaya
‘viraja’, ‘brahma-loka’ bhedi’ ‘para-vyoma’ paya
tabe yaya tad-upari ‘goloka-våndavana’
‘kåñëa-caraëa’-kalpa-vrkñe kare arohaëa
“The creeper of devotion is born and grows to pierce the walls of the universe. It crosses the Viraja river and the Brahman plane and reaches to Vaikuntha. Then it grows further up to up to goloka Vrindavana, finally reaching to embrace the wish yielding tree of Krsna’s lotus feet.”
In other words, one must pass through all of these lower planes of consciousness before one enters Goloka, but it is not that one will necessarily become a Vaikuntha bhakta first and then move on to Goloka, any more than one will become a Buddist first and realize the Viraja, then a jnani and realize Brahman before entering Vaikuntha. However, the experience of Gopa Kumara in Brhat-bhagavatamrta was that he realized the nature of his Deity in stages.
Babhru Das - December 13, 2004 12:30 am
I think Swami's and Vrindaranya's comments here shed considerable light on an issue easily--and widely, I think--misunderstood by many of us. In our line, we are instructed to move carefully, in some senses. Especially when Srila Prabhupada got to the US and found what he had to deal with, he wanted to ensure that we didn't get carried away with cheap imitation of raganuga bhaktas before we had actually cultivated any good habits. If we read the entire purport Forrest cites, we can see that it mostly glorifies the kind of woship carried out on the spontaneous platform. In such a context we can understand injunctions for neophytes to not prematurely adopt the attitudes of raganuga devotees as an important caution, not a prohibition. Without such training, it may be too easy for some practitioners to ignore regulative principles due to indolence or a tendency to cheat. Even with all these warnings from our guru varga, we still encounter devotees who have become lax in their practice and make comments--sometimes (half) jokingly--that they're on the spontaneous platform.
One of the things Swami has written that I think makes the issue clear is in his commentary to Bg. 12.10. He writes,
When [the devotee] engages in Krishna's work and the rituals related to this work with a view to tread the path of love, he will gradually advance to the point of being eligible for internal service on the path of love. Althought the path of ritual has its own end wherein a devotee attains love of God steeped in a sense of his majesty, it can also be engaged in with a view to attain love of Krishna in intimacy. When one engages in vaidhi-bhakti with a desire to progress to the direct culture of raganuga-bhakti, centering his devotional culture on chanting the name of Krishna, his success is sure. In this regard . . . Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings, . . . "That person who is fixed in following vaidhi-bhakti attains the jewel of independence (through the grace of Krishna nama), by which he is placed on the path of raganuga-bhakti."
So although our practice seems largely guided by pancaratika vidhi, its focus is hearing and chanting the glories of the name, form, qualities, and pastimes of Krishna, not Narayana. Moreover, Swami has often pointed out that worshiping Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is a sure gateway to Vraja seva. We are in good hands here, I think.
Swami - December 13, 2004 1:58 am
Regarding Srila Prabhupada's purport cited by Forrest, here are some quatation of Srila Prabhupada that may be helpful. He takes us in a different direction.
“For an ordinary man, worship of Sri Caitanya and Nityänanda Prabhu or the Panca-tattva is easier than worship of Rädhä and Krsna. Unless one is very fortunate, he should not be induced to worship Rädhä- Krsna directly. A neophyte student who is not sufficiently educated or enlightened should not indulge in the worship of Sri Rädhä and Krsna or the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra. Even if he does so, he cannot get the desired result. One should therefore chant the names of Nitäi-Gaura and worship Them without false prestige. Since everyone within this material world is more or less influenced by sinful activities, in the beginning it is essential that one take to the worship of Guru-Gauränga and ask their favor, for thus despite all his disqualifications one will very soon become qualified to worship the Rädhä- Krsna vigraha.”
“Those who have seen our temple, we worship Rädhä and Krsna in jubilation. They are, along with the gopés, playing the flute and many musical instruments, dancing. That is the definition given in the Vedänta-sutra. Änandamayo 'bhyäsät, means "by nature jubilant." There is no moroseness. There is no unhappiness. That is the kingdom of God.”
“So all the Vaiñëavas, they worship the Absolute Truth Personality of Godhead, with the energy. Just like there are many devotees, Sitä-Räma. They worship mother Sitä and Räma. There are other Vaisnavas who worship Laksmi-Näräyaëa. Laksmi, the goddess of fortune, and Näräyana. In this way, we Gaudiya-Vaisnavas, we worship Rädhä and Krsna.”
“The Rämänuja-sampradäya, they are called Sr-sampradäya. They worship Laksmi-Näräyana. Everyone worships the Lord and His potency, spiritual potency. Just like we worship Rädhä- Krsna, similarly, the Rämänuja-sampradäya, they worship Laksmi-Näräyana or Sitä-Räma. So we should follow the sampradäya.”
“Just worship Rädhä-Krsna according to the arcana-vidhi. Then gradually Rädhä- Krsna will be pleased, Caitanya Mahäprabhu will be pleased, and svayam eva sphuraty adhah. Sevonmukhe hi jihvädau [brs. 1.2.234]. When They are pleased by your sevä, then They will reveal.”
"So, Krsna can be worshiped through Rädhäräëé. Therefore we don’t keep Krsna alone on the altar. No. We worship Rädhä-Krsna. First you have to worship Radharani. In Våndävana all the devotees address one another, “Jaya Rädhe!” Why? Because they know that if Radharani is pleased, Krsna will also be pleased. Radharani is the original pleasure potency of Krsna and is always absorbed in thought of Him. So when someone comes before Her to serve Krsna, She becomes so pleased—”Oh, here is a devotee of Krsna.” Immediately She recommends. “My dear Krsna, here is a devotee of Yours. He is better than I am.” This is Radharani mood.
I may not be a devotee—I may be the most fallen rascal—but if I try to reach Krsna through Radharani then my life is successful. Therefore we should worship Radharani first. Instead of directly offering Krsna a flower, just put it in the hands of Radharani: “O mother Radharani, please kindly take this flower and offer it to Krsna.”
“Oh,” Radharani says, “you have brought a flower for Krsna. This pleases Me so much.” Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam: “One can please Me with a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or some water offered with love.” But don’t offer it to Krsna directly. Just offer it through Radharani. Then She will appreciate it very much, and Krsna will accept your offering.
So, this is our philosophy: to please Krsna through Radharani. And today is the auspicious anniversary of Her appearance. Therefore you should offer flowers to Rädhäräëé and pray to Her. “Kindly be merciful and tell Your Krsna about me.” Krsna is not independent; He is Radharani property. So you have to approach Krsna through Radharani. Therefore worship Rädhäräëé very nicely and be happy.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 13, 2004 1:59 am
Because Krsna is the fountain head He must also be the most comprehensive, so even if someones ishta deva was Lord Ramachandra, Lord Rama Himself remains a facet of Krsnas identity. So that persons svarupa in relation to Lord Rama would still have some connection with Krsna indirectly. Is it not possible that through the progression lila they will become drawn to the Krsna conception? If ones svarupa were to "change" twords the Krsna conception, would it actually be considered "changing" because Krsna is the actual origin.This topic cannot be assertained by ones mind so please forgive any missaplication of logic on my part.
This is an interesting idea, but it doesn’t work this way. There is no scriptural support for this idea. Once you are situated in your svarupa, you are fully satisfied. That is the beauty of it: according to bhava everyone thinks their relationship with the Lord is the best.
Of course, if Krsna wants to change someone’s svarupa, it is possible, but it is very unlikely.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 13, 2004 2:17 am
Here is another quote from Srila Prabhupada that establishes that we worship Krsna from the very beginning:
So Krsna is ready to accept our service in so many ways... If there is possible to establish temple and serve Krsna properly according to the regulation mentioned in the sastras or instructed by the spiritual master, that is called vaidhi-bhakti. Vaidhi-bhakti. Vaidhi-bhakti means discharging devotional service under regulative principles. So without vaidhi-bhakti, you cannot jump to the raga-bhakti. Raga-bhakti is spontaneous. That does not require any regulative principles. Out of love, out of feeling anyone wants to serve Krsna...So from the very beginning of our life we should try to understand Krsna consciousness, love Krsna. Then automatically it becomes manifest.
It seems as though Srila Prabhupada was just making a very heavy emphasis on not jumping into raga bhakti.
Swami - December 13, 2004 2:55 am
Regarding Forrest’s quote again, it is important to note that acrcana is not really a limb of raganuga bhakti per se. Raganuga bhakti is about sravanam, kirtanam, and smaranam. As one advances through arcanam, one becomes qualified to worship Radha Govinda in the temple of one’s heart and to engage in nama bhajana.
If such an advanced devotee then engages in arcanam, this is either his own bhava seva or a way in which he sets an example for his disciples who need to enegage in arcanam for their advancement. If it is his own bhava seva, then it may appear casual or take a form that neophyte’s can not learn from or would be confused by, like the arcane of vamsidasa babaji.
Thus it is important to stress to neophytes, for whom Deity worship is most important, that such worship should be conducted as a matter of duty with regulation and regard, etc. lest they act casually and inappropriately in the name of raganuga bhakti and offend the Deity. So, see Krsna as God (Narayana), the Supreme Personality of Godhead first—aham sarvasya prabahvo— then having become wise by understanding tattva—budha—gradually bhava samanvitah, or raga samanvitah will manifest.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 13, 2004 4:57 am
My question is a little off subject at hand, but it had been bothering me for a while, so here it goes. I’m very much attracted to everything ceremonial and I cannot wait to get to arcana-vidhi when I’m qualified. But what is the bona fide process of performing arcanam? We do not closely follow Vishnu-smriti or Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, which wasn’t even translated to English (pretty amazing fact in itself). So this issue is kind of similar to "Carrots and Us" problem, meaning how much following the Book is sufficient enough? Now, in regards to carrots, it may be not that important, because even if they are bad for you, it just affects your state of mind. In case of incorrect Deity worship we might run into more severe problems, such as making offences, displeasing Deity, etc. which may cause devastating effect. The answer “Well, He is accepting it, so it must be good” doesn’t bring much comfort -- when His patients is completely exhausted there can be a case of lightening strike and chance to spend next millennia as a worm in dog’s stool, which is not very appealing scenario. This brings me to the second question -- how important is it to perform arcana-vidhi correctly? Correct mantra pronunciation for example, etc. Or all what counts is the mood of the worshiper (such as in a case of offering banana peels)?
Bhrigu - December 16, 2004 7:09 am
I think Swami already answered your question, Nandatanuja. For neophytes such as me, arcana "should be performed as a matter of duty with regulation and regard, etc". I take that as meaning to follow the rules as closely as possible. We should try to become expert in whatever we are doing, so if we are doing arcana, why not do it properly? Learning to pronunce the mantras properly is not that much more difficult than learning how to pronounce them improperly. Especially for Vedic mantras, I think one should be careful. Different gurus have somewhat differing systems of arcana for their disciples; when the Audaryarcanacandrika (or whatever they will call it) comes out, we will also have a standard to refer to. Then one can always make it more complicated if one wants!
However, in my estimation, there is a danger with doing things too elaborately. I recently spent some time with a Sri Vaishnava friend of mine. His puja is much more elaborate than mine, with proper Vedic sandhya and everything. It must have taken about one and a half hour to finish. However, when he wasn't feeling well or "didn't have the time" he would not do any puja at all. Better to settle for a standard that one can actually manage every day.
Puja should also not become such a burden that it detracts from one's devotional enthusiasm. I have also seen that happen.
Your servant,
Bhrgu