Tattva-viveka
Being In The World, Not Of It
Syamasundara - January 16, 2005 8:00 pm
Jaya Gaura Bhakta Vrnda!
One of the reasons why Tattva Viveka was conceived is to have a virtual place where all the members of this internet congregation could share their devotional experience of life outside the temple, in an environment where Krsna doesn't seem to overtly smile at you all the time.
Recently by the grace of Sri Guru I've been having some enlightened thoughts and attitudes, which I thought I'd share in this new thread, hoping they'll be of enough inspiration and encouragement for others as they have been for myself.
It just so happened that one week ago I subscribed to the gym, after a pause of five months. In order to absorb the cost of the gym, I go every day, and in order not to stress my body I do only the pulling muscles one day and only the pushing ones the other. Somehow, while "pumping iron", partly to stay motivated, and partly to do something good of my time during all that "physicality" I started to meditate on anukulyasya sankalpa (acceptance of what is favorable) during the pulling exercises, and pratikulyasya varjana (rejection of the unfavorable) during the pushing ones. At present I'm not into any kind of varjana, but since I want a balanced body... I thought I'd think of something easy while pushing away, like the desire for puja, labha and pratistha (admiration, profit and status), imagine the difficult ones!
Ok, it's not a real meditation, physical endeavor and meditation are really hard to put together, and I am not really acting in light of anukulyasya sankalpa and pratikulyasya varjana, but I thought it was better than not thinking about those concepts at all. Plus, during the last repetitions, those that hurt the most and make you want to stop earlier, it helps to think "No, I must reject this" or "No, I must accept it"
All those who saw the movie Karate Kid will remember the scene where the kid was being taught things that were apparently totally unrelated to karate, but that at the right moment, in the right context, proved to be the very essence of it.
Similarly, since I decided to bite out of the stale bread of material life, I am flavoring it with the butter of these thoughts and attitudes, hoping that one day I'll realize that with that very butter I can actually make a halava... and then offer it to Krsna 
Sometimes after work and with the abundant Irish rain, I am tempted not to go to the gym, I can see all the excuses my mind finds, and I preach myself into going eventually. In one limited sense, the gym is a little more generous than bhakti, in that you see the result of your effort on your body time after time, and you are motivated to pursue the goal. Naturally when I go to the gym I become a freak and my dietary habits become much more regulated, which in turn made me caress the idea of taking up the Ekadasi vow again: I'll keep you posted.
So, talk about heart exercise, this is something that goes way beyond cardiovascular activity!
I mean, I am aware that I am taking things from the lowest possible point of view of our siddhanta, but that's where I am at, so I am trying to make a good use of a bad bargain; so far it feels healthy.
What I wonder is where everybody else is at, if they also have found inspiring ways to stay connected with Krsna and invite Guru and Gauranga into their daily lives, or better, realize they had always been there neglected.
Krsna is really everywhere, and sneaky, too. Once bitten by that beautiful black snake, to paraphrase the gopis, it's really difficult to think of something else. When it's us forgetting him, it's him waving at us anyway.
I thought that the Paris area was quite arid as far as Krsna consciousness; on top of it there is a lot of materialism. Here in Cork you don't even have that, it's a pool of blandness.
Still one night at Christmas time I was going back home, walking through the city center (if you can call it that way), and there was a group of young people collecting money for the poor or something. One girl approached me with the usual spiel while I was walking fast by: "Hi-do-you-have-a-minute-for-a-couple-of-questions-Hare-Krsna!"
I was like "What? How does she know?" Then I realized my kanthi-mala was showing. She must have frequented the Cork temple when there was one. I don't know if I was more surprised or pleased.
Another day at work somebody told me "Hare Krsna" in the toilets of the 3rd floor. Turned out it was a gurukuli from Suriname of Indian family. I must admit I had never talked about Krsna at a urinal. Oh well... apavitrah pavitro va... yah smaret pundarikaskam...
Yet another day, I was walking down the street and I hear "Hi, like your beads!" and there I see a guy who had all the symptoms of a book distributer, and sure enough, he was there from Dublin, giving out Prabhupada booklets for the Christmas marathon if I remember right. A sincere guy. When I told him who my Gurudeva was, his face lit up. He said a friend of his had recently joined the fold of Tripurari Maharaja, his name is Vrndavana something now. Also he wanted to know what the incarnation of book distribution thought about distributing books nowadays. I tried to tell him about Audarya and the concept of brhad mrdanga in the most diplomatic terms, as his face would switch on and off according to how favorable my words sounded toward book distribution. I wish he'd understand that it's not a matter of either right or wrong. Anyway I gave him the url of tattva viveka and other sites.
Recently I found this cool girl who works in the Portuguese section of the call center of Siemens, I work in the Spanish one. Her seat is right behind the water tank, so I chat with her at every bottle refill. I asked her for her Siemens email address for the moments of boredom, since during working hours I cannot access the internet.
It turns out she's a vegetarian since age 8, she practices yoga and chants hare krsna among other mantras and prayers.
Now with Tattva Viveka it's much easier to get association and absorption, but those little encounters seemed so magic when they happened, and really made me feel emotional, because Krsna is always reaching out for us,and we are never really alone, no matter what we do or where we are.
Om tad visnoh paramam padam....
Guru-nistha Das - January 17, 2005 2:30 pm
That's a really cool post, Syamasundara!
It's a funny idea to combine meditation on spiritual life and going to the gym. I bet it requires a quite concentrated mind, though. When I went to the gym, all I could think of was how intimidated I was by the testosterone mountains and the silicon-pumped amazons...
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - January 17, 2005 5:05 pm
Meditation in the gym sound much better that my brilliant idea of doing japa while commuting. Took me a totaled car to realize that maybe I shouldn't do that. Oddly enough I've only broke index finger on the right hand
Krsangi Dasi - January 18, 2005 1:33 pm
I live quite far away from the city where I work and it takes me at least an hour to get to work, often an hour and a half, so I've also tried chanting while driving or sitting in a bus. But I gave it up because I just found myself looking out through the window and thinking about everything but the mantra. I also tend to chant really loudly so people would give me these strange looks.
My solution to all you commuters out there is an iPod filled with Guru Maharaja's lectures. (OK, you could also listen to them on a CD player or any MP3 player but an iPod is MUCH cooler.) I used to get really frustrated with taking the bus, knowing I could already be at home if I was driving (I try to avoid driving alone because it's so unecological) or lived closer to the place where I work, it felt like I was wasting so much time on getting from place A to place B. But listening to lectures I'm no longer wasting time, I'm actually engaged in spiritual practice while going to work. How about that!
Syamasundara - January 18, 2005 1:50 pm
Yeah, ultimately we should keep in mind that there is a difference between adapting our life to Krsna consciousness, and adapting Krsna consciousness to our lifestyle.
Whichever the case, the goswamis say it clear:
smartavyam satatam visnor
vismartavyam na jatucit
"Always remember Krsna and never forget him."
Anything that makes us think of Krsna, or thinking of Krsna no matter what we do, must be better than not thinking of Krsna. Then of course, nothing prevents us from evolving from there.
Syamasundara - February 14, 2005 8:49 pm
Jaya Gaura bhakta vrnda.
Greetings from London. A friend of mine paid me the flight over but he had to leave earlier, so I took advantage of the day on my own to go to Camden Town and get something for my room and wardrobe at a very low price. I am so poor, but with the blessings of Radha-Londonisvara and Jagannatha (I'll petition them tomorrow) I'll get a better paid job, so I can help Audarya with some contributions. For this month I can only subscribe to the CD's (my subscription will be sent tomorrow).
After three months of Cork, Ireland, it was so nice to get a whiff of metropolis. I'm a man of contraddictions, I like both countryside and metropolis, both spirit and matter, spirit a little better though, that's why I ended up at 9 Soho Street, to see the Govinda's and the deities.
That was even better than seeing the Tower Bridge all lit up last night. The Harinama was flowing effortlessly out of my mouth while waiting for class to end and attend Gaura arati. And there he was, the most gorgeous murti of Sri Baladeva my eyes were ever blessed to see; incidentally the deities were wearing my favorite colors. Everything has been just perfect today. See, as much as you want to enjoy, and as hedonistic as you can be, if you manage to keep your Guru's benevolence on you, you can't but see all the good that happens to you as Krsna's kindness. It's just in your face. You do your best to enjoy matter, but you end up feeling deep, deep gratitude. Gm says that a sense of gratitude is the step zero on the path of bhakti, so that encourages me.
After Sundara Arati there was a harinama. I never took part to a naga-sankirtana in the darkness. I started to naturally drift to Caitanya-lila, as described in the song Arunodaya kirtan, when Mahaprabhu wakes up at dawn and organizes a street kirtan in Navadvipa you can hear the noise of the instruments getting ready and the party starts lit by torches... only it was at night and lit by the London street lights. Another uddipana vibhava so to speak, was seeing all the people walking toward us and starting to dance; that of course reminded me of the muslims of Mayapur who were mocking the street sankirtan and repeating the harinama, and getting purified nevertheless. It was interesting to see that most people would raise their hands naturally and not because they saw us doing it.
Bahu tule nece bol, hari bol hari boooooooool! (Raise your arms and dance to the holy names!)
It was very nice. At least one quarter of the people on the streets were Indian or of Indian origin anyway, and they were all smiling to us. At one point it appeared a little rough, though. We stopped in a square and a guy approached us barking something, or at least it was my impression. My first thought was to move away in case he turns violent, but then I thought: "Who am I, thinking me better than Haridas Thakur (who got beaten up in several marketplaces for chanting the holy names)? I'll just keep chanting with a smile, and if the devotees wish to protect me, so much the betta, as they say here. I felt so fortunate to remember Haridas Thakur during a harinama. Sometimes I am amazed I can actually feel something for these saints and forms of the Lord, that my mind perceives most of the times as story characters. Again, I give all the credit for this to the benevolence of Sri Gurudeva. May he always keep a little corner in his heart for me and grant me clear vision and a mind that drifts to the scripture at every instance.
So anyway, at one point we turned around the corner and we were in China Town.
Iskcon devotees have such a passion for butting into the Chinese New Year celebrations. I saw that in SF, too. I felt so embarrassed, as we were so out of context and we were like uninvited guests. I thought it was bad preaching, like "Who cares about other cultures? We bring the Holy Names and we're always right", anyway, due to the extacy of the kirtan I just thought that the Holy Names are in fact transcendental to time, place, and circumstance, so everything would be all right. By the way, happy year of the rooster everyone.
Oh, and Maya was there, too. She's never missing. It was so dang hard to not notice all the billboards and the good looks of some people. I was rather disappointed with myself, but hey, now I know all the movies coming up soon in the London theaters.
All this happened last Saturday of course, but I am posting it only now. So, yesterday I went to the temple again full of second motives, to petition the LORD OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE to give a tiny job to this lowly me.
I went close to the altar and I was stunned, I couldn't understand what was going on. Then I realized it was a fragrance I was smelling. It gave me memories of my first unauthorized deity worship in Milan as a young lad. I used to scent my deities with jasmine or lotus oil. And then I realized they were all wearing garlands of jasmine buds, like the southern indian ladies on their hair. It was so Vaikuntha-like. I really don't know how Narada Muni can go have a chat with Narayana and then leave him; I was so stunned by the darsan and the fragrance I couldn't even take my eyes away to bow down. Jaya Jagannatha! Of course there are pictures of all this. No worries.
The last uddipana vibhava was the statue of Nelson at Trafalgar Square. Well, more than vibhava, it was a source of doubt.
GM is fond of saying that for Srila Prabhupada it was a major satisfaction when he managed to take the Vedic culture and the sankirtan movement to the West, especially to England, that oppressed India and its culture for so long. So he once remarked that the pinnacle of the Ratha, during the first Ratha Yatra in London was even higher than Nelson. I don't know, that pillar is pretty tall... but anyway, Lord Jagannatha has been worshiped in London for years now.
The rest of the trip was just New Year's celebrations and Chinese everywhere, but anyway, here are the pictures, for those who have a visual approach to things like me.
By the way, don't make this look like the thread of my ramblings. I encourage everyone once again to share their life experiences in relation to Krsna consciousness.
In service,
Syamasundara dasa
Syamasundara - February 14, 2005 8:51 pm
another pic
Syamasundara - February 14, 2005 8:53 pm
I can still smell it.
JAYA JAGANNATHA!
Syamasundara - February 14, 2005 8:55 pm
Trafalgar Square
Syamasundara - February 14, 2005 8:58 pm
I know, I am getting old. It's the separation from you...
Shyam Gopal Das - February 14, 2005 9:00 pm
You didn't take any pictures of Sri Sri Radha-Londonisvara??
Syamasundara - February 15, 2005 9:48 am
I did. I'll upload them tonight.
Shyam Gopal Das - February 15, 2005 10:07 am
Great!!!
Mathura-natha Das - February 15, 2005 11:09 am
So here's my little relaization on the effectiveness of Prabhupadas preaching.
This incident happened a while ago, but i didn't have the guts to post it. But since Syamasundar Prabhu encourages us to give whatever realizations we have, so I thought that this will be my little contribution.
One day I was downtown doing some worldly affairs. As I was standing in the center of a mall, just going to give a call to my wife, somebody tapped my right sholuder. I turned around and there was a young man standing with a pair of semi nervous blue eyes. The following is the conversation that took place.
Man:"Hello, can I speak to you about Jesus and His message?"
I was a little taken aback bye this straightforward attitude, in Sweden at least you don't approach strangers with you're beliefs, except that you're nutcase. But anyway I thought that this was kinda interresting so I responded: "Sure, give me whatever you've got..."
So he took out his "Best of the Bible" book (this book is a short version of the bible the gives you the basics, quite common amongst the Christians). He started to preach to me and show me passages where humaintys faults are exposed, and how we should turn ourselves towards God.
Mathuranatha: "I do belive in God, but I just wonder what we should do to become better persons". To my question he started to give me some moral guidelines, like we have to be kind and gentel to each other, and so forth. But i wasn't completely satisfyed by his answers, so I confronted him a little bit: "Ok, I agree that we should become more righteous, but do you think that this could be broadened to nature and animals too?"
Man: "Yes, of course we should be kind to animals and take care of nature, of course."
Mathuranatha: "So you agree that we should expand our kindness towards animals and nature, so what do you think about slaughterhouses?" As you readers can figure out he was a little supprised by my argument. He couldn't really answer my question, but he tried.
Man: "But the Bible does'nt forbid humans to eat animals", he said.
Mathuranatha: "As I can remember God clearly states in the Genesis that it's a vegetarian diet that are fit for humans." He took out the Bible and I showed where it clearly was stated.
Man: "Ok, but this does'nt apply today."
Mathuranatha:"Why not? For me it's quite clear that when God created this world His originall plan was that we should not kill animals just to eat them, that is very selfish thing to do. For a minute ago you told me that we should be kind to all, including animals so why are you insisting that animal slaughter is alright. In todays world we don't need to eat animals to survive, so why don't we go back to Gods originall plan, and be kind for real, this will certainly please our Lord"
At this moment his eyes went big from amazement, he took a step back and said. "I have never thought about it in that way, maby you're right. But if the Holy Ghost will inspire me I will definitely become vegetarian."
When he said the last line I knew that I had him...I focused my eyes into his and said with a firm and deep voice. "So, what if I tell you that the Holy Ghost is truly inspireing you right now, through me." His jaw dropped and his eyes was about pop out from their sockets. I put my hand on his sholders and said. "Now, I want you to really think about what I have told you here today, ok?" He just nodded his head in agreement, and I walked away leaving him with some new ideas to ponder upon.
During the whole conversation I remembered Prabhupada and how He used to preach to Catholic priests (I saw a videoclip a long time ago) about the importance of mercy towards animals, and the fact that you are not able to understand deeper things about Gods nature if you're dining violence.
Syamasundara - February 15, 2005 8:46 pm
There you go
Shyam Gopal Das - February 16, 2005 9:11 am
Jay! Thank you!
Narada-kunda Dasi - February 18, 2005 10:53 am
Syamasundar prabhu, congratulations on starting this thread and writing these amazing things. It's really magical. I don't know what mercy you got, but it's having a sublime effect on your readers...
Do continue. And consider publishing your stuff at some point!
Syamasundara - February 18, 2005 9:43 pm
Syamasundar prabhu, congratulations on starting this thread and writing these amazing things. It's really magical. I don't know what mercy you got, but it's having a sublime effect on your readers...
It should be clear what mercy I got by now. Usually devotees pray for mercy, but I think there is as much glory in saying we did receive mercy, especially if someone is as unworthy as I. It tells something about the greatness of he who has bestowed such mercy on us.
We all received this mercy, and it's self-celebrating in this forum. Jaya Gaura bhakta vrnda.
Do continue. And consider publishing your stuff at some point!
I still prefer Guru Nistha's.
Jason - February 20, 2005 3:57 am
I remember something that Vaisesika prabhu said once during a class; then for the remainder of the evening, it became a catch phrase. It was something like "...keep the vibration going." (meaning keep the buzz of the maha mantra going as much as possible throughout the day).
So, I agree with Krsangi, I love to take the 'ole I-POD and fill it with bhajans (Agnidev, kirtans from various temples, Atmarama das from Spain, etc.) and lectures. I listen to lectures on the bus, or train, or even walking while running errands.
When I get to work at the record store (usually an hour or so before the doors open), I skip all the "karmi" music and opt for plugging in the i-pod to the stereo and listening to bhajans at full volume while I do my work! I mean, I can't even hear the phone ring....
When my boss comes in, he usually asks what I'm listening to and I explain a little bit....
I try to Krsna-ize the store before we have to play mundane music the rest of the day.
YS,
Jason
Jason - February 20, 2005 4:02 am
That reminds me....
If Agnidev or any of you have nice bhajan CDs (they've got to have normal covers, etc.), perhaps I could buy some at wholesale and sell them at the record store. Some of the ladies from the hair salon next door, Madusalon (I call it Madhusudana), often come in for Krishna das type stuff. I could "upsell" them on some REAL bhajans!
Let me know.
Guru-nistha, perhaps we could talk before the next Sunday class about you bringing down a load of stuff for me to buy off you??? We'll talk soon.
YS,
Jason
P.S. I'll take flyers too for Maharaja's class in Santa Rosa if there available.
Babhru Das - March 27, 2005 8:55 am
I'm taking a lead from Shyam Gopal in the Two-for-one thread, where he asks about our sharing our experiences of finding a balance between our devotional lives and the rest of our lives. This is something I've struggled with a lot for a long time. I'll explore my experience a little at a time (I also want to get in on a couple of the other conversations here, and time is a problem for me).
to me by an old friend called something like Do What You Love, the Money Will Follow. I don't remember a lot of what was in the book (seems as though it was sort of a right-livelihood approach), but one thing I did take away from it was an idea that I should be trying to create integrity rather than balance. That is, I should be looking to form my work life around my values. Now, I've tried that and had some degree of success, but since my work life has for the last 16 years been teaching (without tenure) in public colleges and universities, I've only been able to go so far. In the meantime, my work's demands on my time and mental energy has kept me from increasing my spiritual activities to the extent I'd like. For most of us, the demands of ou professional and family lives will force us to compromise more than we'd like. We can, however, try to make our family lives as Krishna-centered as we can.
One thing I've done to keep myself going has been to make chanting my rounds top priority. Another is keeping some worship in the home. When my wife and I moved to the Big Island in the mid '70s, we had a temple room with an altar, and we had mangal arati, dressed the Deities, and had a Bhagavatam discussion every morning. (I didn't work regularly then, and we were able to get by on almost no money, partly because we didn't have any kids.) Our worship is different now. My wife's job has us out of the house by 6:00 every morning (we only have one car), so we get up at 4:00 to bathe, prepare an offering (and make breakfasts and lunches) and do the puja for our Thakurajis. We're not able to have a separate mangal arati right now because of the time. Our Deities are Nitai-Goursundar, Krishna-Balaram (our Girirajas), and Murali-manohara, our Shalagram-shila. I'll post a couple of pictures of them, if I can figure out how.
Babhru Das - March 27, 2005 9:06 am
Here are Parama-karuna Sri Sri Nitai-Goursundar. They were a birthday gift from my friend Brishna das in 1975 (he gave me hydrostone murtis he made himself, but they became damaged in one of our moves and were replaced by these brass murtis we ordered from Navadivpa). I apologize for the poor photo quality we bought a low-end digital camera, and I haven't completely figured it out yet, I guess.
Babhru Das - March 27, 2005 9:10 am
Here's a picture of Murali-manohara. He was given to me by the then-head pujari at ISKCON San Diego several years ago. This is an old picture, taken when we lived in Hilo.
Babhru Das - March 27, 2005 9:18 am
Here are Krishna and Balarama, apparently looking for some trouble to get into (my daughters call them the Rowdy Boyz). They were given to me by an old friend, Ramananda Raya of three Rivers, California. the larger one, Balarama, is about 1/2 inch tall and 1/2 inch wide. Krishna, the little brother, is a bit smaller. They're just too small for any sringar.
Babhru Das - March 27, 2005 9:20 am
Here's another shot, with the Boyz posing for the camera:
Babhru Das - March 27, 2005 9:28 am
And here's a shot of the altar, taken during the summer (sorry for the glare):
Syamasundara - September 11, 2005 8:34 pm
Here are Krishna and Balarama, apparently looking for some trouble to get into (my daughters call them the Rowdy Boyz). They were given to me by an old friend, Ramananda Raya of three Rivers, California. the larger one, Balarama, is about 1/2 inch tall and 1/2 inch wide. Krishna, the little brother, is a bit smaller. They're just too small for any sringar.
They are just irresistible. Can I come visit them one day?
Syamasundara - September 11, 2005 9:35 pm
Well greetings from Madrid and JAYA SRI RADHE!!!!!!!!!
I managed to leave Ireland, hopefully forever, and its greyness.
I was on the airplane just waiting to pierce through and above the clouds, and we finally did, flying in the most beautiful and almost forgotten sunny sky. It felt so cathartic. I started to meditate on Krsna being always behind the cloud of maya.
Boy that sea of clouds was really thick. The clouds were grey and nasty at the bottom, but the side facing the sun was white and pure, just like Maya is Durga for us, but above all she is Narayani, or Vaisnavi, favorable to Krsna and doing nothing but his bidding.
Later on I saw that there were still clouds above us, thinner but still clouds, which made me think of the various planes of consciousness, bhuh bhuvah and svah. It also reminded me of Gopakumara from Brhad Bhagavatamrta and his journey. Eventually we went even beyond the second layer. NOW I was in Vaikuntha, or maybe not, but it reminded me of Dhruva maharaja going to Vaikuntha with his spiritualized material body.
Anyway for the time being I made it safe and sound to Madrid loka.
The friend who is hosting me until I get a job and a room lives at the very Km 0 of Madrid and Spain (Puerta del Sol) and while I was talking with her boyfriend on the terrace I heard a harinama approaching.
I told the guy I´ll see him later and ran to the street. Following the sound of the karatalas and looking for the Vaisnavas is an incredible sensation and I am always happy and grateful when that happens. Eventually I reached them, but I wasn´t dressed properly for a Harinama, so I kept at a distance.
I really enjoyed seeing people´s reaction. Unlike London, the party stumbled into just one couple of Indians, still many people would clap their hands, dance happy or in mockery, and in the wake of the devotees Krsna´s names was dancing on most people´s tongue.
"It´s the Krishnas"
"Hare Hare!"
"What do they say" "I hear Krisma"
"...yeah you know the Hare Krishna"
"....Krishna"
"Why do they say hare rama? (In Spanish hare rama means "I'll make branch", or in other words, nothing)
At one point the kirtana went through a market/fair sort of thing and me still in the background. In one booth one wife kept nagging at her husband and he said: "Look I´m gonna join those guys."
The harinama was simple, sweet and dignified, despite their T-shirts. Unlike the London one in China Town, these devotees went to Plaza Mayor, which was filled with Ecuatorians because of some celebration, so they quietly walked through and went on full force once out of it. On one hand it was sad to see the Holy Name take a secondary position, but if they had kept singing it would have been much worse for the preaching.
When I joined the harinama I was so happy to have reached them after chasing after the sound that I must have walked through the most important sites of Madrid and didn´t even realize.
What I did notice though is the stunning beauty of the Spanish´ eyes, both men and women: absolutely beautiful eyes. I must have seen as many as there are people with Prince Charles´s ears in Ireland.
Maybe it was the contrast with Ireland that made them look so beautiful, but it made me think of once when SP asked a sannyasi disciple of his: "Did you see how beautiful the New York women are?" Only, he was fascinated by the power of Vishnu Maya, whereas I am grossly entranced by her. I have such a thing for beauty and aesthetics and yet I am so far from falling in love with Vrajasundara.
Eventually I followed them all the way to the city temple (the real thing seems to be in a farm one hour away) and had prasadam.
Last time I heard, Spain was under Giriraja maharaja's juridiction, but I guess it was long ago. One devotee kept mentioning sannyasis and gurus I had never heard of. It was interesting to see how now Pabhupada's movement is at its second and third generation. The devotee mentioned some Kadambakanana maharaja, although I'd swear he said Caramba every time. They still don´t know whose disciple I am.
I went back when the deities were awake, but I got severely lost, so I arrived there after Gaura Arati.
The brass Gaura Nitai are beautiful. There was a picture of a beautiful Radhika, but I couldn't tell from what temple.
I prayed for a good job to be able to help my GM as it's the only thing I can do from here. If I get it, I will be also able to move to Canada at some point, and then I won't miss any more SF Ratha Yatra.
Babhru Das - September 11, 2005 9:58 pm
Syamasundara - September 25, 2005 9:06 pm
Jaya Gaura Bhakta Vrnda!
I've just come back from the Sunday program. I wanted to visit the temple in Guadalajara, but it's too far away and costly. After the train I'd have to take a taxi etc., so I went to the center they have here in Madrid; they give a couple of Gita classes during the week beside the Sunday program.
This time I didn't get lost and I arrived when the class had just started.
Strangely I didn't have an offensive attitude (every time I go to an Iskcon temple I have to bite my mind's lips) at the same time I couldn't help noticing some differences in methology between Iskcon and Audarya.
The verse was BG 18.66 (sarva dharman parityajya), so quite famous, important and worth memorizing, still it felt so weird to see a bunch of people repeating words mindlessly after a leader, especially since it was the city center, which is open to newcomers, and not the farm.
The class was well and good, nothing off was said, but that was it. At one point they asked a question and the answer was very verbous but barely touched the point; it reminded me of my early years in iskcon a lot. One of the things that struck me during my first period in Guru Maharaja's association was how he would listen to the craziest question of the most clueless hippy, answer it and always bring it home to Sri Caitanya and Radha-Krsna without fail, but I repeat, after properly replying to the question.
Then it was arati time. Gaura Nitai are so absolutely beautiful and well dressed; more than once I felt like taking them home with me. I hope I did in my heart and that they can stay as long as possible. I took a picture with my cell phone, let's see if I can post it.
The place must have been a store with its basement and the actual temple room is the basement and not a very large one. Still the kirtan was nice and potent. Mahaprabhu has one arm up and one down like ours. Nityanda also had one arm up, but the other one. I couldn't take my eyes off them: the two princes of Nadiya, as Gm likes to call them.
When the kirtan kicked in and the dance began to be "too ecstatic" for me I focussed on the deities and the mantra.
I began to think of how everything I needed was enclosed in that very mantra I was chanting, and all the verses of the Siskastaka started to pop in my mind and spin like an 8-sign zodiac around me.
I liked that idea of the zodiac: we should read our life every day in light of one verse or another of the siksastaka. Forget the life and the world of 12 signs and 12 houses in a perishable, stale universe.
At the end of the kirtan they said to my delight that next Saturday is Ratha Yatra day in Barcelona and with 20€ I could get there and back, prasadam included. So much for not spending 8€ to go to the Guadalajara temple... Anyway next Friday I should know if I got this job or not: if I did, what better occasion to celebrate than to dance for Jagannatha; if I didn't, what better way to propitiate the job I'll get sooner or later.
Oh, one cute detail. Since we are in Spain, the prasadam here includes "tapas" besides rice sabji, etc.
"Tapa" literally means lid, and it's a slice of toasted bread topped with a huge variety of things, and they are served in bars or "taperias". It could be a real dinner made of appetizers like those, since in Spain the real dinner could be as late as 11 
Having said this and thinking with a Spanish mind, it's quite hylarious to think that when Brahma was born out of the lotus he was surrounded by darkness and nothingness and after meditating, the word "tapas" appeared in his heart...
I was also given a red plum from the pujari who had put the deities to rest. I am not much into raw fruit since it lost its flavor, and I must have eaten 10 plums in my life (I didn't use to like squishy stuff as a kid), but after praying to Radharani last time and again tonight to Gauranga (for the job) I took it as a good sign of favor toward me (the red plum is said to be Radha's favorite fruit), and since love means sacrifice... I ate it. Not bad. Actually they say fruit is quite good in Spain.
Syamasundara - September 27, 2005 7:10 pm
I have a picture of Gaura Nitai!
I went to the temple to give the donation for the Ratha Yatra, so I finally had to say my name. He asked me whose disciple I was; before he could ask me why he had never heard of him and I could freak out that he might not allow me to go with them to see Jagannatha, I gave him the "incarnation of book distribution" spiel. He said a couple of times: "Oh, he's a disciple of Prabhupada." I don't know if he was surprised there are still disciples of Prabhupada who take disciples and are in good standing, or he was relieved that I hadn't received that name from some Gaudiya Matha guru or maybe the follower of some Hugging Mother who says she is Durga. Anyway all went smoothly, I went to the temple room and to my delight the deities were dressed like Sunday. They are much more mind-blowing live, but I hope this picture can give an idea.
Jaya Gaura Nitai!
Syamasundara - April 4, 2006 12:35 am
Saturday night we had the first gathering of Gurudeva's disciples and well wishers in Portland, thanks to the enthusiasm of Guruseva who was also the host. Her husband and son, Vaisnavananda and Taruna Krsna, also came, as well as Hrdaya Caitanya and Acyutananda, Gaura Krsna, Forrest and I.
Hari bhakti was nowhere to be found, and she was the only one who could contact Ragatmika, so we were two short.
Everybody brought a prep. Guruseva picked me up and I cooked at her house with her stuff, as I am poor and destitute (which reminds me I have to give my two bits on the other thread... sigh... we will have internet at home eventually and I'll be able to keep up).
Guruseva's idea was to start with prasada while it was hot. Nice feast: cashew pea rice, chole, potato cauli curd sabji, jagannatha dal, cuke raita, apple cider, cookies.
There was a bhajan while the offering was being made. Guruseva is learning or relearning everything since she joined GM years ago and then left, but she is very enthusiastic to make up for all those years. She wants us to meet so she can learn the songs, learn how to cook, how to make an offering, etc...
She bought all kinds of cookbooks, woks, tava for capatis, all just for that, so that's commendable.
After prasada we went up to her beautiful temple room. Her living room is a Waldorf school during the week, so the whole house is fenced by toddler barriers and gates.
I did and showed Guruseva a simple home standard offering that she could do, too. That temple room is really sattvic, well, visuddha sattvic; it really made me want to have my own house and have one room just for chanting and offering food, or even just to close the door behind me and stare at Vrajasundara and his associates.
I had had a headache all day and having a standing kirtan with my belly full surely didn't help, but eventually Hari Nama Prabhu kicked in and I forgot all my reasons to whine.
Ironically the kirtan was led by the only one who wasn't a disciple of Guru Maharaja, and let's just say that the vibes were distinct, without counting the Narasimha pranati after the kirtan. It felt like an Iskcon Sunday feast.
Forrest told me he took a chance to harmonize and think of Narasimhadeva's relevance in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I... had a headache.
After that we sat down and discussed how to keep doing this every week, and many ideas came up, like having a real feast once a month, but keeping it simple the other weeks, like salty and sweet fingerfood, so that we focus on sanga and kirtan, and regardless, the offering should be done first, but prasada should be heated up and honored at the end, or we'll fall asleep during any eventual reading.
As far as the reading, I must confess my mind always takes off when somebody is reading out to the others, as opposed to a live class, as if I thought that it's in the book anyway and I can read it whenever I want. Reading one paragraph each is not much better. I suggested we keep it real and alive as GM would like us to; maybe print out the sangas or whatever topic on tattva viveka, like the one on jiva daya and discuss it ourselves, or we discuss how krsna conscious or not we have been during the week.
The reactions were mixed. One said it sounds great, but he is not interested in Bible study groups, so maybe he will come before or after that for prasada and kirtan. Another said she is afraid of speculations that may come up and we should just ask GM for what reading to do and... read. Another one said that he also used to do that back in the Iskcon days, gather and argue on certain points in order to train and defeat those mayavadis and materialists (!!??), but now he is not interested in that. Thanks to my migrane I didn't dignify that with a reply.
Oh and all this was after that devotee had been going on about how we should gather every week and eventually we'll extend and open the invitation, and one day we'll have a big enough group to invite Maharaja over to speak, and Krsna will empower you, you know, if you pray, just see Providence, you ended up renting the very building that was the Iskcon Portland temple, so we can replace them now, there are so many people that would come....
All this on the very first meeting. I am not even sure we'll be as many next Saturday.
Myself I am on the fence, because I know that in his youth our GM used to gather with other brahmacaris and do "passive" reading, which turned out to be very dynamic, because if in the purport of a verse there was a quotation from another book, they would grab that book and read that verse, and if in that purport there was another quotation, they'do the same; so it's not exactly like one reading and the others snoozing.
At the same time I know he would approve of us engaging our intelligence and analyzing our own life in terms of our philosophy, or discussing tattva viveka.
All in all I am happy I will have a chance to do kirtana every week. I know how hard it was to live in Ireland; I had to fly to London for a kirtan. Paris and Madrid weren't much better compared to here, were I can associate with people of my same anugatya.
Here, no matter how lame our sadhana, singing, or understanding of philosophy is, we all share love for Guru Maharaja, so the sadhu sanga is there. That, together with prasada and kirtan constitutes three very important pillars and a chance to express the six kinds of love (giving and receiving gifts, food and realizations).
So I am grateful and hopeful about the future.
...
Swami - April 4, 2006 1:58 am
Nandatanuja has rendered a valuable service by making DVD's of many of my talks availale. Why not purchase a few of them and watch them for the class? That's my suggestion for now.
Panchatattva - April 10, 2006 2:09 pm
Ironically the kirtan was led by the only one who wasn't a disciple of Guru Maharaja, and let's just say that the vibes were distinct, without counting the Narasimha pranati after the kirtan. It felt like an Iskcon Sunday feast.
Forrest told me he took a chance to harmonize and think of Narasimhadeva's relevance in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I... had a headache.]
May I ask why it is such a terrible thing to have a kirtana sound "like an Iskcon Sunday feast"? And though you may feel it is outdated, the instruction to chant Narasimha pranati was given by Srila Prabhupada. Some devotees in Gauidya Vaisnavism are very attracted to Narasimhadeva, and I don't think it should be condemned. You mock Iskcon devotees that have a hard time adjusting to differences such as singing the maha-mantra broken up, but then have the same judgement yourself towards an "Iskcon kirtana". Can't kirtan just be kirtan?!!? Or do we have to distinguish it between Gaudiya Math kirtan, Iskcon kirtan, Swami Tripurari disciples' kirtan?
Jim Churchill - April 10, 2006 3:01 pm
I agree that negative comments are especially tiresome and I think sweeping generalizations against Iskon devotess seem out of place here considering Swami Tripurari's teachings (but perhaps I misunderstand those as well). One of the aspects of Swami's teachings that has most attracted me is the apparent openess and inclusive nature of the approach to Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Being so new to all of this, I generally feel like an outsider here on this forum but that is my opinion regarding disparaging remarks.
Jim
Swami - April 10, 2006 3:04 pm
Actually the devotee who led the kirtana is named Hrdaya Caitanaya dasa. He is a disciple of B.P. Janardana Maharaja and has not been a member of Iskcon for over 20 years. He served faithfully in my ashrama in San Francisco for serveral years in the mid to late 1980's. Probably since before Syamasundara became a devotee, which, by the way, was through Iskcon. I am gald someone brought this up. Overall I found your post/report, Syamasundara, to be repulsive, filled as it was with cynicism. Otherwise I was so happy to know that the devotees there were gathering together to glorify Sri Krsna.
Incidentally, we will be beginning the worship of Narasingha saligrama at the time of the Narasingha Catrudasi this year hear at Audarya. Jaya Sri Narahari.
Guru-nistha Das - April 10, 2006 4:58 pm
Taking the recent instructions available in the topic on Being in the World (Nrsimha avatara, differing moods, etc.), I would like to ask a question. How is it a devotee with a specific sentiment honors the descent of other avataras though lacking a taste for that specific manifestation of the Lord?
Nice question, Madan. Well, on Rama-navami we had a program and Guru Maharaja gave a really nice class. He was stressing the point of how the morality of Ramachandra is the basis for all of Krsna's lila, even in the amorous pastimes etc. He also drew from Gaura-lila and told the story of Mahaprabhu's meeting with Ram das and how Mahaprabhu was very pleased with Ram das' devotion for Rama.
Also, I was really charmed by how he was talking about persons who have real bhava for their istadevata, and how it is always a wonderful thing.
So yeah, Guru Maharaja was definitely talking about Ramachandra from a Gaudiya point of view, but certainly didn't have the attitude that all the "silly Ram bhaktas" should be tied to a chair and hit in the head with "Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam".
Pancha, good points! There are of course different tastes and I'm not going to say I like all styles of kirtan just to avoid saying my opinion, but there's certainly no reason looking down on any devotional style of doing nama-kirtan.
Madangopal - April 10, 2006 6:34 pm
Sorry, I moved my question to the questions thread so as not to distract from the thrust of this one...
Swami - April 10, 2006 6:35 pm
Let's keep any further discussion of the worship of avataras other than one's istadevata on the new thread started by Madan Gopala on this topic in the questions and answers section. Good topic: worship of the avatara.
Syamasundara - April 10, 2006 10:03 pm
Wow, I should have waited one more day before posting that, and most of of all, listened to my gut feeling that made me feel a little off since I posted it.
My hearfelt apologies to Hrdaya Caitanya dasa, the devotees of Lord Narasimha, the Iskcon devotees, and all those who felt affected by my erosive words.
I don't remember "mocking" the Iskcon devotees who chant the mahamantra altogether, but I remember noticing how some of us, hopefully only me, could develop the same closed-minded and suspicious attitude in a reversed way, and I made a note to myself to keep alert. I guess I failed.
I knew Hrdaya Caitanya wasn't in Iskcon. I guess my physical state of that day really impaired my judgement.
Thank you everyone for the sobering and kind words.
Syamasundara - October 27, 2007 8:43 am
Fire season here in San Diego. Yesterday I got out and the air smelled like burned straw. While I was trying to think of all the people who were in trouble, my mind couldn't help going to Vrndavana, carried by that smell, and helped by the fact that that's where my GM was flying to right then .
I biked downtown singing jaya Varsabhanavi Radhe Radhe over and over, meanwhile it turned out a huge forest fire has been going on outside San Diego since Sunday, it's now over 500,000 acres wide, and people don't know where to evacuate anymore.
Forest fire: Dava. Samsara-dava-anala-lidha-loka. Bhava-maha-dava-agni.
Sometimes it's impossible not to see Krsna everywhere. And yet some other times....
visvam purnam sukhayate
Is it just poetry? I must admit that since I moved to San Diego, where nothing ever happens, many things happened that brought my mind to Krsna and Vrndavana effortlessly. So, in one sense, I am glad this city is so bland and anonymous, it makes you see the transcendental substratum more easily.
And I am not referring to when I was here jobless and homeless, depending on Radha-Giridhari, the local deities; that's easy. I am talking of so many small, but very frequent reminders.
It would have been better to post about them as they happened, but I was always carried away by something or other. This same post was started two days ago.
Well, to begin with, I've never been recognized so much from my kanthi mala as it keeps happening here. They are usually whackos on the street, or on the bus, people who you would never expect to have had the incredible fortune of saying or even hearing the name of Krsna, but all of a sudden they go: "Are those Krsna beads?"
Two of these times were different. I was coming from selling T-shirts in Old Town, while I am getting on the trolley there was a group of student in front of me, as I pass them, one of them, who was Indian, noticed my neckbeads, a few seconds later we cross each other in the crowded trolley and I see he also has a small kanthi mala, but the exchange was so fast, that when he noticed me eyeing his neck while crossing him, he only had time to give me a brotherly nudge with his shoulder against mine.
That was so nice, we had a sweet little secret in the middle of all that crowd, we kept smiling at each other from our distant seats, like we had just found a very good friend, but I had never seen him before, nor did I see him again after that.
Another time, when I was already a rikshawala, and with very sore knees, I had gone to the gym downtown, where they have a sauna and jacuzzi. On my way out, a guy in the reception was staring at my neck. I had my upavita all around my neck, which looked kind of tribal and funky, I guess, but at the last moment he said: "Is that Tulasi?" I said "Sure is!" while smiling, but didn't even stop because I was worried about my pedicab's lights being stolen, so he said "Hari bol!!" and I raised my hands on the way out the door. The funny thing is that the other receptionist also said Hari bol after him. So, I am watched wherever I go... 
When there isn't a search for Sri Krsna, there is a loving search for the lost servant. Krsna sometimes goes out of his way to make you remember him, but really, if we are tuned in and have a good guide, it becomes impossible not to see Krsna everywhere.
I am sure most of you also have a moment when they see a bumblebee, or a heron, or a python. OK, maybe they are not the most common animals, but the point is that all the stories and analogies provided by our scriptures, are there to train us see Krsna behind the material manifestation, if not inside it.
We look at the moon and we think of Krsna, now even while looking at the stars, as GM recently taught us. Now that I am working on the road a lot, I get to assist to a lot of sunsets, and some evenings, when the sun is really red, if there are clouds above it, they take the color of Krsna's feet: bluish on top and reddish below. That is also the color around Krsna's eyes: the color of molten copper, or the sun at sunset. Then you really don't feel like working anymore, and dealing with crazy people, but no one can understand you, you just saw a sunset.
One day, during one of these sunsets, I was working at the San Diego Zoo, selling T-shirts, when the peacocks started to cry from inside. I immediately thought: "Krsna is coming back from herding at this time, the peacocks sing and dance at the sound of his flute, and the deer in a distance see the peacocks going back and forth and they perk their ears while scanning the horizon; Nanda Maharaja is climbing up the watch tower of his palace so he can see Krsna and Balarama coming back at last.
GM told us this in Eugene once during class. Meanwhile, there I was, in the middle of folding a T-shirt and unwilling to move a muscle, because a peacock had cried out.
By the way, I did see a heron and a python; I am telling you, this city is unbelievable.
For some reason there are herons in the bay and at the harbor, even ducks. I guess fresh water is really rare in Southern California. Herons are not common, but it's immediately a reminder whenever I see one (of Bakasura of course).
One day I got very anxious because the police were checking all the pedicabs, who are mostly from Turkey and Serbia, to see if they had remained here past the expiry date of their visa. I started to freak out because I am here legally but as a religious worker, so I started to read the lila of Aghasura, which gave me a different perspective. One or two days later, I see a man at the embarcadero sporting a python around his body and having kids take pictures for tips. I am expecting to see a nursing lady, a cart, a whirlwind, a bunch of donkeys, and a bull come my way any time now. Oh my God! That was a joke, but there you go! A forest fire!!! I forgot about that one.
Wow, Krsna really does go out of his way to make me remember him, but that was a little too much, no?
Krsna is an unlimited reservoir of kindness, but these statements resound the right way only in those who are experiencing it right when they hear them, or have experienced it so many times they keep remembering it, otherwise they are just words that are spoken and heard so often and so freely.
I read the Audarya Daily a few hours ago. Guru Nistha is also trying to be in this world, but not of it. We have been given an incredible gift. Our meditation and absorption can be constant and universal, that's why I liked that prayer (Inspiring quotes > Kartika drops), because it says: "May our heads offer our obeisances to everything within this world, because all things are also Your different forms."
One last thing that happened since I moved to San Diego. The easiest way to be reminded of Krsna here is of course the Friday night naga sankirtana downtown. One of these Fridays, I parked the pedicab and followed the procession incognito. There was a street bum that was also following them, but carrying a sign that said: "COULDA BEEN YOU"
He was showing it to all the people sitting outside the restaurants, who would laugh out loud, prey to hysterics.
At first I was annoyed and wanted to approach him and ask him: "Why do you even do that?"
Then I started to see Krsna's brilliant humor behind it. With Krsna we have to read reality on many levels, he's smart. All of a sudden I would see that sign, and it seemed to mean: "Yeah, that COULD have been you, you COULD have been Vaishnavas, but look at you, so miserable and you don't even know how much. You are laughing at yourselves, fools."
A forest fire, I still can't believe it...
Syamasundara - July 17, 2008 12:23 am
Jaya Sri Krsna!
Jaya Sri Krsna!
I came home from work a while ago. Mahatma was playing one of his tapes in the car. The song was addressing the Lord as Bala Mukunda.
He is the giver of liberation (mukum da) and he is just a child (bala). Isn't this wonderful? I started to chuckle in the car.
Anyway, it's hard to share these moments unless one is not living them, too. I guess we all agree that Krsna is wonderful, though.
Yamuna Dasi - August 23, 2008 11:05 pm
So, yesterday I went to the temple again full of second motives, to petition the LORD OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE to give a tiny job to this lowly me.
I've seen that this had been posted 3 years ago, but still could not resist my inspiraton to tell U a nice joke we have here in Bulgaria due to it's strong connection to your prayer's content. 
A mutra (this is the way people call those new Bulgarian rich guys who have like no more than 5 cm high forehead) entered a church to say a prayer for the first time in his life, since a "serios" problem was standing on his life-path. So he was just ready to start his plea when he saw an old poor lady next to him praying in deep meditation... so he started listening to her words with the initial motiv to get an idea how to address "the Boss". So he heard: "Our Father who are in heaven... give us our daily bread..." Here he could not stand this any more! He interrupted the poor old lady like this: "Look! Take these 100 $ and stop bothering the Boss with these minor things since I have serious problems to discuss with Him right now, OK!?"
:He He:
Premanandini - August 23, 2008 11:31 pm
I've seen that this had been posted 3 years ago, but still could not resist my inspiraton to tell U a nice joke we have here in Bulgaria due to it's strong connection to your prayer's content.
A mutra (this is the way people call those new Bulgarian rich guys who have like no more than 5 cm high forehead) entered a church to say a prayer for the first time in his life, since a "serios" problem was standing on his life-path. So he was just ready to start his plea when he saw an old poor lady next to him praying in deep meditation... so he started listening to her words with the initial motiv to get an idea how to address "the Boss". So he heard: "Our Father who are in heaven... give us our daily bread..." Here he could not stand this any more! He interrupted the poor old lady like this: "Look! Take these 100 $ and stop bothering the Boss with these minor things since I have serious problems to discuss with Him right now, OK!?"
:He He:
Yamuna Dasi - September 1, 2008 3:39 pm
I especially love these moments when He gives me some sign, when I can feel watched and taken care by Him… or even when there is a tiny slap but a clear one, not one of these hazy ones when you don’t know why and what for this came to you. I love His messages when they are clear!
But even when some message is COMPLETELY clear, sometimes we still cannot get it. I love the moment in a movie when Jim Carey is driving his car in a completely rebelious mood regarding God shouting to Him “give me a sign! I want a clear sign that you exist and hear me right now!” and a truck full of street signs passes him and comes in front of him… while he continues shouting “GIVE ME A SIIIIIGN!!! DON’T YOU HEAR MEEEEE!”
Once I was also in a very rebelious mood, but this time it was not towards Krsihna, but towards my Gurudeva B.A. Narayan Maharaj. I was finding it desparately unfair that he left this material world and didn’t take me with him. This was so egoistic and cruel! OK, I’ve heared that this is the real test for a disciple and that I can serve in separation and this is even higher (yea right!) etc. etc. I was feeling so lonely and so desperate and so tired of serving him in separation, that I bursted in tears in front of my home altar and put him a condition! Imagine how mad I was in that moment! OK, I will continue to love you and serve you in this stupid way of cruel useless separation, but I want you to GIVE ME A SIGN HERE AND NOW that you are at least watching and appreciating my efforts, OK?! I want a sign! I continued sobbing and putting conditions for some minutes and when were completely emotionally and phisically exhausted by doing this (you know how tired one feels after crying for 10 minuts only) I went to my laptop trying to focus and do something useful… obviously my conditions have not been heard… All of a sudden my ICQ sounded. Who cares! I am not in a chat mood… oook, let me at least see who it was, we are personalists finally, right?... Surprise! It was an unknown guy with the nick name GURU MURTY! My heart started beating… what’s that?! I started a chat with him and it came out that GURU MURTY was not a nick name, it was his birth name – an Indian man. He started asking me some questions about Krishna and devotion and before I could blink engaged me in preaching. While I was responding him I remebered the words of a Godbrother of Gurudeva who came to comfort us when he left this world – one of the things he told us was that from now our Gurudeva will come to us in a hidden way, sometimes as an unknown person, asking us “can you please tell me something about Krishna?” So here I was… smiling… realising that he heard me and was giving me this sign now… GURU MURTY called me and asked me “can you tell me something about Krishna?”… and I felt my Gurudeva watching me and giving me a wink… Here I am watching you, don’t worry…
In the Academy of Theology while studying Orthodox Theology a lot of definitions for faith were given to us, but I especially loved one! Maybe because it seemed the most… personal to me. It goes like this:
Faith is a subjective suffieciency of proofs!
Thank you Gurudeva, Guru Murty for supplying me my subjective sufficiency of proofs in that moment and thus giving me the chance to touch the threshold of faith…
Yamuna Dasi - September 1, 2008 4:01 pm
This Janmastamy a Bulgarian devotee shared with me an amazing story which happened to him just recently.
He is a big businessman and a company needed for something his service. Feeling that they are somehow cornered and in need of his services, he asked them few times higher price. They objected but he said that this is the price and if they don’t agree he is not going to provide the service. Next day the clients called him and said that even though the price is very high, they accept it. Real free market negotiations. But seems that Krishna didn’t like very much his “free market negotiation” mentality…
Just few days later he was driving through Yugoslavia passing by on his way back from Hungary to Bulgaria with his wife, one more woman and his 3 babies (he had a baby and an year later twins) when all of a sudden his car had a serious technical problem. He had to stop and search for some help. Imagine with 2 women and 3 babies and a broken car in Yugoslavia! He had to search for help but the car repair team which came seemed more like car robbers. He arranged then a hotel for the women and the babies close to Yagodina (a town in Yugoslavia) and had to give the car to the repair team. They came back the next day with the car and requested few times higher price than normal for fixing it. He felt so cornered and desperate! And in that moment remembered that few days ago he was the one cornering those clients of his… Free market negotiations! He immediately sent a message by his cell phone to his clients that he reconsidered and he is pleased with the lower normal price. Being brahmana he knew that if you made a mistake the best is to try to repair it ASAP. And immediately after sending the message to his clients, he all of a sudden remembered that he knew one of the drivers of that very same company and he was often driving to Yugoslavia… and he by chance even knew his cell phone number. So he called him and asked him where he was, and the driver responded “in Yugoslavia, 10 kms from Yagodina.” Can you imagine? So he came where they were and took them back to Bulgaria. His name was… Angel…
Quite subjective sufficiency of proofs again, isn’t it?
Obviously Krishna prefers his devotees to be rather merciful than just some free market negotiators and is ready to give them clear signs to lead them into this direction.
Syamasundara - September 1, 2008 4:16 pm
Faith is a subjective suffieciency of proofs!
Nice story, and I liked the definition of faith. The word subjective is key in that. It all depends on the consciousness of the individual; according to the level of devotion we have attained, we'll read the environment in different ways. That's why the Bhagavata is full of instances of people actually seeing Krsna, but not really seeing him, and that's why when one has a level of devotion that's 100% he or she sees Krsna everywhere.
So, when we pray for signs, we are actually praying to have a better vision ourselves, and more devotion, because Krsna is already there and everywhere.
Whenever we feel and express devotion, that is a representation of Srimati Radharani, and Krsna can't hide himself or his sweetness in the presence of Radharani; he can't even appear as Narayana.
Devotion reveals God, which ties perfectly with an instance that your story reminded me of, although I think I already mentioned it here.
Once I wasn't even praying for signs. I was just back in Italy, since my papers had expired, and my devotional life had become barely nominal; not disenfranchised, but not doing anything actively either.
One summer evening I was watching TV and saw some strange light in the sky, coming and going.
I looked out of the window and in the evening sky there was a huge, tall black cloud that was being lit by lightning every few seconds, and becoming golden and visible (which, if you don't know, is a metaphor given to describe the interaction between Krsna and his internal sakti).
I became so embarrassed and touched, thinking that Krsna was going out of his way for me to think of him. When there is not a search for Sri Krsna, there is a loving search for the lost servant.
But again, if it wasn't for the devotion that my GM and SSM instilled in me, I wouldn't have been able to read the environment in that beautiful way, which is all this thread is about.
Syamasundara - September 12, 2008 6:16 am
The other day I was watching the Tudors on DVD. The sister of Henry VIII was being sent to Portugal to marry the king, and escorted by one of his friends. While on the ship she became infatuated with this guy, so she calls him into her quarters and asks him to play cards as she was too bored. All her maidservants were there embroidering and such. She asked him if he would like some wine, and when he said yes, she just glanced at one of the maidservants and she had a pitcher and goblet ready. Later, during the game of cards, there was a whole double-meaning conversation going on. At one point she said his remarks were not fit for the ears of her maidservants, and they just got up and left, so the sister of the King of England remained alone with the duke, and.... anyway.
I was very much struck to see that scene. The damsels were one with the princess and they were facilitating her in everything, not even thinking for a second that they could have been enjoying with the duke themselves. It was the closest expression of parakiya and mañjari-bhava I've ever seen in a material context and it was so powerful.
I mean, quite a rasabhasa compared to the real thing, and those were more like sakhis than mañjaris, but anyway, I felt very honored that I could see that scene in that light, and I owe it to the association of everybody here.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 12, 2008 12:34 pm
Nice stories guys, really inspiring. I have to admitt that lately I have tough time in my spiritual life. It seems to me that the more my everyday life is messed the less I feel inclined for performing sadhana, praying to Krsna etc. It is rather spirit of contrariness; instead of looking for Krsna in the time of material commotion, I am becoming defiant, kind of: "You care for me? So do something, send me some signs. Why always I have to show that I care?"
Is it silly?
Bhrigu - September 12, 2008 3:52 pm
Is it silly?
Maybe, but I can relate to what you are saying. I had a big disappointment in my professional life early last summer, and my first thought was something like this. Why did you have to do this, Krishna? Come on, I'm trying to serve you here, and this is what I get! My next thought was one of defiance. Ok, you want to test me, then I will show you. I will not give you up. Of course, the best way to see obstacles is as lovingly arranged by Krishna for our purification, but in my case, that doesn't always come immediately...
Asking Krishna for signs is a common Gaudiya practice. I'm editing a book by Bon Maharaj in which he often does that.
Premanandini - September 12, 2008 11:08 pm
[
Is it silly?
it is human - and we are still also human.
i have same experience:
one older yoga-client brought me some beautiful flowers some weeks ago - as he is christian and also believing in god - i told him that i love flowers and that i offer them to the godess of love (Radha) and the god of joy(govinda ) - (my little gauranga radha giridari deities). - we talked a little about this - he liked the idea and in the end he asked me:" and do your gods give you something back- like love and joy?"
and I was for a moment speechless - my life is full of obstacles in all aspects since quite some time and love and joy dont seem to be most prominent......
I could just mumble:"Well, I quess they take care of me......" which was not really convincing - also not to me....
later i was thinking about this: I seem to have it more difficult in all aspects of life than "normal" people - how can i inspire others in my path if they dont see any obvious thing that they would like to have too???
It reminds me to the story with judhistira maharaja, i dont recall the exact words, but somehow krsna asked him, what he would like to have from him. And judhistira m. answered: " a lot of wealth, power, the most beautiful women, great learning, famce, success....."
krsna was astonished:" Why, whats that?"
and judhistira m. answered:" Yes, because how can people be attracted to become a deovotee of you by seeing us- who are your devotees - just see: everything lost because of our relation with you -send in the forest in exil etc........
if i am very wealthy, beautiful, successful, famous etc -people will become easier inclined to follow you and become your devote....."
I understand theoretically in my mind and intellect that these obstacles and "stones falling from heaven" is all for our purification etc, but still these questions are also kind of unanswered deep in my heart: " I am endeavoring honestly: doing my sadhana, chanting, reading, offering to my deities etc - but why do i have it more difficult than most of the people around me...................?
Syamasundara - September 13, 2008 6:59 am
I think it's a matter of aligning our present level of consciousness with our knowledge of siddhanta.
Some kind of mirror version of the dichotomy between tattva and bhava, or as GM says: "I know, but..."
We know that Krsna is the supreme controller, that the environment is friendly, we know about karma, maya and all, but we still feel miserable, and we petition the Lord to take us out of this valley of tears (no, wait, that's the Bible).
That's why the sastras are so important, and the expertise of a sadhaka lies in bringing all that theoretical knowledge to life and into his or her life, which is the theme of this thread.
Consciousness is everything; consciousness and knowledge: bhava and tattva.
Sometimes I also become defiant with the Lord when things happen, but not all the way. How could I? I know better. I do it for the sake of cultivating the relationship and dialog, but with a certain foundation of knowledge, and he is so ironic and reciprocates in many ways, but mostly embarrassing you with his affection.
Some other times I address the Lord in total distress, but the outcome is pretty much the same. As long as we keep Krsna on our minds:
smartavyam satatam visnor
vismartavyam na jatucit
Kamsa teaches.
All in all, though, it's not a very good idea to be defiant. That's usually for very advanced devotees, such as Jaya and Vijaya in their incarnations, or to some extent SP in his prayer, where he bargains with Krsna, instead of being "surrendered".
Interestingly, I noticed this morning, after reading and reflecting over this post, that whenever a challenging mood is expressed in relation to the Lord, he engages in the challenge to bring out the glory of a devotee (Prahlada, etc) or of devotion in general, as in the case of little us challenging the Lord, and then being humbled by his shower of mercy, and therefore becoming more devotional.
But still, I don't think it's wise. Again, in order to feel a certain way, we need to know a certain amount of siddhanta.
Every time I think of the attitude Madhavendra Puri was describing, so many points from the scriptures come to mind, that I don't even know where to start. Literally, I'm clogged. Every sloka or word from the acaryas I can think of seems so obvious that I don't want to mention it.
By this I don't mean to dismiss the feelings of all of us when we feel like Madhavendra. I like when SP equals buddhi-yoga with bhakti-yoga. There are no problems, only service, if we can see it.
The last time I remember feeling defiant was when I left early in the morning from the southern corner of Sicily, where I was working, to go to the foot of the Etna volcano, at the Northern corner, where some Iskcon temple, and a dear devotee was. It was quite a trip, by train, by bus, then I got lost in the hills, then I find the way up the hill under the midday August sun... only to find the gate locked and the intercom broken. I see a picture of Mahaprabhu dancing at the Ratha Yatra, and I tell Jagannatha: "I haven't come all the way here to go back because you lock the gate. I'll show you if I'm determined."
So, there I was, city boy me, about to climb a gate with bars so close that my foot wouldn't fit, and looking very sharp at the tip of the rods. And that was only to get into the private road. Then I get to the actual house, and again the gate was locked, I went around the mesh fence, and found a loose spot I could get in from. All in all it was very purifying.
Or should I have thought that maybe Jagannatha doesn't wish to give me darshan?
Once in Eugene GM gave a very intense class about laulya (greediness). I never heard him stress that point as much, but luckily, I only needed to hear it once.
However, I've been trying to save money for whatever future I'll have in Costa Rica since August 2007, and here I am, barely taking off, still flying very low, but the thought of blaming Krsna for not facilitating my dreams, albeit devotional, never even crossed my mind, and I do feel frustrated at times!
I guess I just live by the day, trying to stay afloat in my kayak along the fast river of material life, but as dangerous as it is at every curve, I have my life vest (guru), my helmet (sastra) and my... I don't know, parachute in the backpack, in case the river turns into 200ft tall falls (faith).
Prahlad Das - September 13, 2008 4:32 pm
I have been reading "Memories". A devotee gave me a couple copies a couple weeks ago.
I have been posting a couple in "Bengali Sweets" thread.
This seems pertinent here though
Bhagavat: Srila Prabhupada asked if we had any questions. I was an avid reader, and by that time I had read the little blue Bhagavad-Gita twelve or fourteen times. One of my favorite parts was "The modes of material Nature." Being philosophical by nature, I wanted to understand some of the more refined and subtle points. So I said to Prabhupada, "I'm confused because throughout your books and in your lectures, you say that when you become a devotee you're on the transcendental platform. But at the same time, you talk a out being affected by the modes of material nature. Although I'm a devotee practicing the principles of devotional service and experiencing a certain amount of transcendental pleasure, at the same time I feel affected by the modes of material nature. How is it that i can be on the transcendental platform and still be affected by the modes of material nature?"
Prabhpada smiled. He saw that it was a thoughtful and introspective question and said, "That is a very good question." He answered, "It is just like being on a boat. When you're on the boat, no one can say you're not on the boat. You are on the boat. But sometimes big waves will come and rock that boat, so your position on the boat may not be steady. Those waves are the modes of material nature, and the boat is the transcendental platform. You're on the transcendental platform, but sometimes the waves of material nature rock the boat, and therefore your position is not steady."
Then he asked, "How will you become steady? For that you have to learn from the captain of the boat, the spiritual master, how to steer the boat. If you learn expertly, then your position in the boat will be steady even in the greatest storm. Similarly, on the transcendental platform, if you learn from the spiritual master how to steer the boat of transcendence through the ocean of material life, then you will become steady even in the greatest storm of the modes of material nature. " I was extremely impressed at how Prabhupada explained complex philosophy with a simple analogy.
Premanandini - September 13, 2008 10:24 pm
Once in Eugene GM gave a very intense class about laulya (greediness). I never heard him stress that point as much, but luckily, I only needed to hear it once.
what did maharaj say about laulyam??? would you share please?
Premanandini - September 13, 2008 11:16 pm
I have been reading "Memories". A devotee gave me a couple copies a couple weeks ago.
I have been posting a couple in "Bengali Sweets" thread.
This seems pertinent here though
Bhagavat: Srila Prabhupada asked if we had any questions. I was an avid reader, and by that time I had read the little blue Bhagavad-Gita twelve or fourteen times. One of my favorite parts was "The modes of material Nature." Being philosophical by nature, I wanted to understand some of the more refined and subtle points. So I said to Prabhupada, "I'm confused because throughout your books and in your lectures, you say that when you become a devotee you're on the transcendental platform. But at the same time, you talk a out being affected by the modes of material nature. Although I'm a devotee practicing the principles of devotional service and experiencing a certain amount of transcendental pleasure, at the same time I feel affected by the modes of material nature. How is it that i can be on the transcendental platform and still be affected by the modes of material nature?"
Prabhpada smiled. He saw that it was a thoughtful and introspective question and said, "That is a very good question." He answered, "It is just like being on a boat. When you're on the boat, no one can say you're not on the boat. You are on the boat. But sometimes big waves will come and rock that boat, so your position on the boat may not be steady. Those waves are the modes of material nature, and the boat is the transcendental platform. You're on the transcendental platform, but sometimes the waves of material nature rock the boat, and therefore your position is not steady."
Then he asked, "How will you become steady? For that you have to learn from the captain of the boat, the spiritual master, how to steer the boat. If you learn expertly, then your position in the boat will be steady even in the greatest storm. Similarly, on the transcendental platform, if you learn from the spiritual master how to steer the boat of transcendence through the ocean of material life, then you will become steady even in the greatest storm of the modes of material nature. " I was extremely impressed at how Prabhupada explained complex philosophy with a simple analogy.
yes, this is very reasonable and makes sense and easy for me to visualise ( i am sitting in a very smal wooden boot with immense waves, water in my eyes, in the nose, swallowing water, getting see sick etc... :Batting Eyelashes: )
where in this analogie would be the "so called material" people, who seem to be very happy and undisturbed while i am in the big waves???
Prahlad Das - September 14, 2008 2:40 am
yes, this is very reasonable and makes sense and easy for me to visualise ( i am sitting in a very smal wooden boot with immense waves, water in my eyes, in the nose, swallowing water, getting see sick etc... :Batting Eyelashes: )
where in this analogie would be the "so called material" people, who seem to be very happy and undisturbed while i am in the big waves???
They are the aquatic life forms who are happy to live in the murky, freezing, salty, unforgiving ocean. We are all jivatma but we have accepted different types of designations. Animalistic bodies arent bothered by their lack of spirituality whereas humans have the urge to discover their true sense of spirituality. In the spiritual sense we change our physical bodies to suit our endeavors. :D
Bhrigu - September 21, 2008 7:13 pm
Some Thoughts on Having a Baby
On Tuesday morning at 4.03 our daughter was born after a relatively short labour here in Helsinki. We are still overwhelmed by the new life the Lord has placed in our care and tired after very little sleep for the last few days. I still wanted to write a few rambling lines of the experiences and realisations I have had during these days.
In today's Finland, almost all men take part in the birth and often stay with mother and child at the birth hospital for a few days before everyone returns home. So did I. I had of course heard stories about births and seen them on TV, but the experience was still overwhelming, both terrifying and wonderful. I have heard that Kamalaksa's brother almost puked at their child's birth. I felt like passing out at one point, but somehow managed to keep conscious (I am sure the midwife would have got a good laugh out of my dropping to the floor!). And I was just an awkward witness and helper, who didn't have to do anything!
The child is healthy and ok, so we stayed just the "normal" few days at the hospital afterwards, learning about how to care for the child, breastfeeding etc. The midwives and nurses were all extremely professional and helpful. I was amazed by how many Krishna conscious thoughts learning to get to know her led to. Learning slokas isn't really in fashion among devotees today, and a friend recently asked me what use there really is in learning slokas. Well, now I know that it helps if you get a child! I came to think of so many verses and songs during these days, for example
na jayate mriyate va kadacin... when thinking of how such a wonderful person could take birth in our family
ya nisa sarva bhutanam... when she stays up during the night and sleeps in the day
nama bina kichu nahiko ara chauddha-bhuvana majhe... when I couldn't do my puja every day but chanted my rounds full of thankfulness
pibata bhagavatam rasam alayam... when she doesn't want to drink her milk
dugdham gitamritam mahat... when her mouth is full of milk
bhumir apo 'nalo vayu... when changing her diapers
matra-sparsam tu kaunteya... when she immediately shows her reactions to heat and cold
etc
I also noticed that she calms down easily if she hears me softly chanting slokas, so she has heard the Siksastakam, so many nectar-verses of the Bhagavatam, tattva from the Gita, verses from the Brahma-samhita, and so on. My dream is that when she grows up, she will retain a fond memory of the sound of sanskrit verses, even if nothing else.
My feelings for this little creature have surprised myself. Extreme delight alternates with worries. When she looks like smiling I feel like bursting with happiness, while when the doctor at the hospital thought there was something wrong with her breathing and the x-ray showed something strange (which later turned out to be nothing, fortunately), I felt like dying. "Please let her not be another Harshashoka!"
Anyway, I am too tired to write more now, but please bless our daughter so that she will grow up to be a servant of Radharani.
Syamasundara - September 21, 2008 8:02 pm
Uahahaha right on!
Who's Harshashoka btw?
Madan Gopal Das - September 21, 2008 11:58 pm
Our very sincere congratulations to you and Laura! Having kids changes your life in incredible ways. I find it really pushes you to grow, confront the parts of yourself that you aren't aware of, and most of all to learn to be flexible. Welcome to the adventure! Gaurangi (a midwife/doula) will be very happy to know that you stayed through the labor! Glad to know you made it!! 
Does the little dasi have a name?
Madan Gopal Das - September 22, 2008 12:05 am
Who's Harshashoka btw?
Maharaj Citraketu's son from the Bhagavatam. 6.16.7p
The son of Citraketu was named Harsasoka, or "jubilation and lamentation." The living entity is certainly eternal, but because he is covered by a temporary dress, the body, his eternity is not observed. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara: "The embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age." Thus the bodily dress is impermanent. The living entity, however, is permanent. As an animal is transferred from one owner to another, the living entity who was the son of Citraketu lived as his son for some time, but as soon as he was transferred to another body, the affectionate relationship was broken.
Prahlad Das - September 22, 2008 3:22 am
Anuradha and I offer our heartfelt congratulations, Bhrigu Prabhu!!! When will you give her a name?
Bhrigu - September 22, 2008 8:05 am
Thank you! Her name will be given at the Namakarana-ceremony, which will be in a few weeks. Even amongst non-Vaishnavas, the custom in Finland is usually not to reveal the name beforehand. So you will all just have to try to contain your curiosity somehow!
Braja-sundari Dasi - September 22, 2008 8:46 am
Congratulations Bhrigu!
Gandiva Dasi - September 22, 2008 10:18 am
Thank you for that wonderful post sharing your awesome realizations about being a new father, congratulations on the birth of your daughter.
It almost makes me want to...
learn some slokas No it does make me want to , what a comfort to be able to remember all those slokas and songs and to be able to apply philosophy to such a momentous event in your life. Your daughter is very fortunate.
Yamuna Dasi - September 22, 2008 1:11 pm
Congratulations Bhrigu prabhu both for becoming a Dad and for being able to stay at the labor!
I wish Krishna to grant your daughter much more than you can dream for her to get! And seeing in this forum that you are a very learned devotee, I am pretty sure that you have a lot of great dreams about her, right?
So I wish U Krishna to surprise you by giving her much more than all you can dream of...
It's incredible that today just minutes after midnight a baby was born to my best friends here, also a baby of devotional family, the small Rishi. And yesterday in the morning in Hungary was born the baby of other 2 spiritual nepheus of mine... so I am two times a happy aunty...
Yamuna Dasi - September 22, 2008 7:56 pm
The other day I was watching the Tudors on DVD. The sister of Henry VIII was being sent to Portugal to marry the king, and escorted by one of his friends. While on the ship she became infatuated with this guy, so she calls him into her quarters and asks him to play cards as she was too bored. All her maidservants were there embroidering and such. She asked him if he would like some wine, and when he said yes, she just glanced at one of the maidservants and she had a pitcher and goblet ready. Later, during the game of cards, there was a whole double-meaning conversation going on. At one point she said his remarks were not fit for the ears of her maidservants, and they just got up and left, so the sister of the King of England remained alone with the duke, and.... anyway.I was very much struck to see that scene. The damsels were one with the princess and they were facilitating her in everything, not even thinking for a second that they could have been enjoying with the duke themselves. It was the closest expression of parakiya and mañjari-bhava I've ever seen in a material context and it was so powerful.
I mean, quite a rasabhasa compared to the real thing, and those were more like sakhis than mañjaris, but anyway, I felt very honored that I could see that scene in that light, and I owe it to the association of everybody here.
I would not be able to see the act of the damsels as support for love, since they were subordinate to the queen and in this way would have personal interest in supporting her even into this unmoral affair So I jiust don't see their actions as pure, sorry... Also the gopies do think that they can enjoy with Krishna themselves, so again not quite the same story
Yamuna Dasi - September 22, 2008 7:58 pm
Nice stories guys, really inspiring. I have to admitt that lately I have tough time in my spiritual life. It seems to me that the more my everyday life is messed the less I feel inclined for performing sadhana, praying to Krsna etc. It is rather spirit of contrariness; instead of looking for Krsna in the time of material commotion, I am becoming defiant, kind of: "You care for me? So do something, send me some signs. Why always I have to show that I care?"Is it silly?
I don't find it silly at all, you sound as a reasonabe passionate lover of Divinity, requiring mutual responce
Yamuna Dasi - September 22, 2008 9:37 pm
[Is it silly?
it is human - and we are still also human.
i have same experience:
one older yoga-client brought me some beautiful flowers some weeks ago - as he is christian and also believing in god - i told him that i love flowers and that i offer them to the godess of love (Radha) and the god of joy(govinda ) - (my little gauranga radha giridari deities). - we talked a little about this - he liked the idea and in the end he asked me:" and do your gods give you something back- like love and joy?"
and I was for a moment speechless - my life is full of obstacles in all aspects since quite some time and love and joy dont seem to be most prominent......
I could just mumble:"Well, I quess they take care of me......" which was not really convincing - also not to me....
later i was thinking about this: I seem to have it more difficult in all aspects of life than "normal" people - how can i inspire others in my path if they dont see any obvious thing that they would like to have too???
It reminds me to the story with judhistira maharaja, i dont recall the exact words, but somehow krsna asked him, what he would like to have from him. And judhistira m. answered: " a lot of wealth, power, the most beautiful women, great learning, famce, success....."
krsna was astonished:" Why, whats that?"
and judhistira m. answered:" Yes, because how can people be attracted to become a deovotee of you by seeing us- who are your devotees - just see: everything lost because of our relation with you -send in the forest in exil etc........
if i am very wealthy, beautiful, successful, famous etc -people will become easier inclined to follow you and become your devote....."
I understand theoretically in my mind and intellect that these obstacles and "stones falling from heaven" is all for our purification etc, but still these questions are also kind of unanswered deep in my heart: " I am endeavoring honestly: doing my sadhana, chanting, reading, offering to my deities etc - but why do i have it more difficult than most of the people around me...................?
Where is this story about Yudhisthir Maharaj from?
My heart was breaking reading what you wrote... have a feeling that I know you... from many years... if I am right, please confirm it to me.
I don't have an answer to what you wrote, seems that Krishna breaks the hearts to those who love Him... maybe brokenhearted people have softer hearts and have higher capacity to love and appreciate love when/if offered to them...
Premanandini - September 22, 2008 11:07 pm
...
Where is this story about Yudhisthir Maharaj from?
I quess that the story is found in Mahabharata - i just heard it from my diksa Gurudeva.........
have a feeling that I know you... from many years...
yes we know each other
just last weekend i met a very good spiritual friend of yours in hungary
I don't have an answer to what you wrote, seems that Krishna breaks the hearts to those who love Him... maybe brokenhearted people have softer hearts and have higher capacity to love and appreciate love when/if offered to them...
yes we have to become soft hearted - it is said that when srimati Radharani is in mana (transcendental anger) her heart becomes like a stone and then krsna tries many things to melt her heart - (like disquising as a doctor, a demigodess, a singer, touching the feet of her sakhis etc) - because only when her heart is melted - he can enter it again...................
personally i feel that i get more soft hearted by positiv experiences, loving, friendly exchanges etc. - these negativ experiences make me more hard hearted -and closed but must have some reason why these things are send to me.................
Prahlad Das - September 23, 2008 1:12 am
Thank you! Her name will be given at the Namakarana-ceremony, which will be in a few weeks. Even amongst non-Vaishnavas, the custom in Finland is usually not to reveal the name beforehand. So you will all just have to try to contain your curiosity somehow!
We're waiting
(Interesting about the custom in Finland)
Syamasundara - September 23, 2008 4:14 am
I would not be able to see the act of the damsels as support for love, since they were subordinate to the queen and in this way would have personal interest in supporting her even into this unmoral affair
What do you think my point was? 
May I suggest you read that post again?
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 10:01 am
I understand theoretically in my mind and intellect that these obstacles and "stones falling from heaven" is all for our purification etc, but still these questions are also kind of unanswered deep in my heart: " I am endeavoring honestly: doing my sadhana, chanting, reading, offering to my deities etc - but why do i have it more difficult than most of the people around me...................?
I was also finding that "seeing everything as the will of Krishna" and "seeing everything as the SWEET will of Krishna" are two very different levels of realization.
It's much more easy to accept that everything is the will of Krishna, by observing that it obviously is not your will that manifests. But to see this always as SWEET, that's the art! And the problem...
Actually, maybe it's not exactly necessary to see it always as sweet? Even the Brajabasis don't always see it as sweet, but they finally experience as sweet their love feeling.
But still, even if we are not able to perceive as sweet the will of Krishna at each and every moment by what happens to us, in Gita he promiced that finally one day he will dance with each of us in the way our heart wants... Can we believe him? He's such a cheater...
But his promice is the broadest and sweetest promice of God that I've ever read in any religious or spiritual book! To dance with me according to my ultimate desire... and this dance to last forever... What more could I desire? A life of eternal adventure with God... wow! Before meeting the devotees and the vaishnava Scriptures I couldn't even imagine that this is an option!
And actually it's always part of the real adventure that troubles should be - no trouble, no adventure! Do I want adventures? YES, I do! Do I want problems? NO, I don't! Well... it seems that I have to adjust my vision about the very nature of ADVENTURE... ) Before the real adventure can start for me... and before I am completely ready to enjoy it without spoiling the game with my complaints against the very nature of the game...
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 10:20 am
What do you think my point was?May I suggest you read that post again?
Sure, I just did it again. You have mentioned there that it's quite rasabhasya. My post was not an accusation for you, but rather a sharing of feeling why I am not able to see this scene from the film the way you see it. Why does it have to sound to you so sharp when it's full with smiles? And these are just smiles, not "ironical smiles".
Don't be so touchy and jumping, taking everything so personally, even when it's just a normal joke without any bad intention. If I had to jump every time you give me e pinch, I should be in a nearly constant jumping-dance in the forum
Syamasundara - September 23, 2008 12:16 pm
I am sorry if you have felt pinched by me. Maybe I am too matter-of-fact.
I don't see how I would feel accused in any way. I just like to stick to the words said, at first (smileys apart), and I didn't understand why you said: "So I jiust don't see their actions as pure, sorry..."
I am just applying logic here. Your words seem to imply that I was trying to prove that the sister of Henry VIII was possessed with radha-bhava, or that her activities were pure (word I never used), because she was behaving just like Radharani.
I wasn't even trying to prove that any such behavior in this world is only rasa-abhasa.
My point was that by the mercy of Sri Guru I could be watching a stupid TV series, yet my mind would keep going to Krsna-related topics (which is the theme of this thread). I could have made the same point mentioning another series, ROME, watching which, especially the dealings of the Romans with their slaves, I had some nice realizations or reminders about the relationship between purusha and prakriti, or about dasya.
That was my point....
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 12:31 pm
[/b]have a feeling that I know you... from many years...
yes we know each other
just last weekend i met a very good spiritual friend of yours in hungary ( he told you right?)
He told me that he is going to meet with you because it happened that you called him when he was talking with me. But I was not sure that you are the same person in this forum.
OK, now I know, thank you for the sign!
Glad to meet you again after some years of losing contact. I never stopped thinking of you during these years and asking some devotees about you. I am sure that your meeting in Hungary gave happiness and peace to your heart, as it always gives to mine... Sometimes I am thinking of going there to Maharaja's little ashram without electricity at the border between the forest and the field and stay there for some time... if he would let me do so...
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 1:13 pm
I am sorry if you have felt pinched by me. Maybe I am too matter-of-fact.I don't see how I would feel accused in any way. I just like to stick to the words said, at first (smileys apart), and I didn't understand why you said: "So I jiust don't see their actions as pure, sorry..."
I am just applying logic here. Your words seem to imply that I was trying to prove that the sister of Henry VIII was possessed with radha-bhava, or that her activities were pure (word I never used), because she was behaving just like Radharani.
I wasn't even trying to prove that any such behavior in this world is only rasa-abhasa.
My point was that by the mercy of Sri Guru I could be watching a stupid TV series, yet my mind would keep going to Krsna-related topics (which is the theme of this thread). I could have made the same point mentioning another series, ROME, watching which, especially the dealings of the Romans with their slaves, I had some nice realizations or reminders about the relationship between purusha and prakriti, or about dasya.
That was my point....
I got your point even though English is not my mother language
Just couldn't resist sharing that I don't have the same vision regarding this film as described by you... but I quite have this view when watching some Bollywood movies... Anyway there the similarities with lila are somehow... more clear.
I could not imagine that this would be as a pinch for you, not sharing the same feeling and vision regarding a movie.
Just my perception about amorous adventures inside the lila is strongly connected with the idea that the motivation of acting should be deviod of any material interest like not being fired by the Queen and losing your position if not contributing. I did not see their support for the sexual (not amorous) game as a selfless act, but rather as fear not to lose position if acting in a contrary way. You appreciated also the act of support of the damsels in the light that they were not desiring to enjoy with the duke, but from one side as I know the gopies do desire to enjoy with Krishna, so again the parallel was not clear for me. Also from other point of view they did not dare to desire to enjoy with the duke again due to fear of losing their positions, while the gopies had no fear at all for losing any material or social position. Summarising these three main points, I could not be able to see the movie as brightly as you did, that's all, sorry
Or if I have to be as soft and as brief as your Gurudeva, "You certainly have a fertile imagination."
Sorry Maharaj if quoting you out of place and context!
Syamasundara - September 23, 2008 6:39 pm
You say you've understood, but you keep making philosophical analysis and parallels.
Do you know the story of the Vaishnava seeing vultures circling in the sky and shouting Hari bol? That was my point.
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 7:45 pm
Well, my point is that I just don't share your vision regarding the movie.
Can't believe that it's so hard for you to accept that someone might not be sharing your opinion regarding such a minor thing as a movie. And also that you are getting sharper and vindictive... no problem, go for it.
Syamasundara - September 24, 2008 3:25 am
Oh, now I feel accused. Pray tell, when and how was I vindictive? And sharper? Quotations are welcome.
I do nothing but taking your words and responding to them. I don't know you, why should I have such intense feelings about you as you claim?
Anyway, since you haven't replied or mentioned anything about it, the story I was referring to is about two Vaishnavas walking by. At one point one sees vultures in the sky and shouts Hari bol! Hari bol!
The first devotees had no clue why he reacted like that, whereas the other one (with a fertile imagination) explains that the vultures must be waiting for a cow to die, when a cow dies you can use the hide to make mrdangas, and with a mrdanga you can glorify the Lord in a kirtana.
That should be easier to understand and appreciate, and that's all I meant. Imagine if someone came up and said: "Actually the death of a cow is never auspicious and those vultures were just looking to fill their bellies, they have nothing to do with Hari Kirtana."
How would you react to that? That's pretty much what your intervention felt like. My post had nothing to do with rasa-vicara or siddhanta, or not as directly as you took it.
It's not that I am not accepting your point. They are just two unrelated things.
Yamuna Dasi - September 24, 2008 11:19 am
Oh, now I feel accused. Pray tell, when and how was I vindictive? And sharper? Quotations are welcome.I do nothing but taking your words and responding to them. I don't know you, why should I have such intense feelings about you as you claim?
Anyway, since you haven't replied or mentioned anything about it, the story I was referring to is about two Vaishnavas walking by. At one point one sees vultures in the sky and shouts Hari bol! Hari bol!
The first devotees had no clue why he reacted like that, whereas the other one (with a fertile imagination) explains that the vultures must be waiting for a cow to die, when a cow dies you can use the hide to make mrdangas, and with a mrdanga you can glorify the Lord in a kirtana.
That should be easier to understand and appreciate, and that's all I meant. Imagine if someone came up and said: "Actually the death of a cow is never auspicious and those vultures were just looking to fill their bellies, they have nothing to do with Hari Kirtana."
How would you react to that? That's pretty much what your intervention felt like. My post had nothing to do with rasa-vicara or siddhanta, or not as directly as you took it.
It's not that I am not accepting your point. They are just two unrelated things.
Since I've joined the forum and was reading around I've noticed that you are a kind of sharper in your posts. Then I have experienced it on myself as well, but being a newcomer I was just observing and trying to catch the flow before making some fast conclusions.
You asked for quotes, ok, let it be. Even though I did not want to make it that way. But if you request quotes in order to support my point, who knows, maybe you will be ready to accept them and READ them as they are and get the underlying meaning.
Back to the topic - your constant sharpness in your posts.
The first topic I posted as a completely new person here was "The two different stories of Maharaja Parikshit". While the other devotees started giving their opinions and ideas responding the question, you have read my question in a completely different way, different than the way anybody else have seen it and understood it.
Quote:
"Your... reasoning and line of thought seem to imply that people like Swami, or so many other devotees I know, including me and you, are people of poor reasoning and intellect, that get easily satisfied or manipulated."
You have seen in my question offence to Maharaj and the devotees... But you were the ONLY one who have seen it this way.
Then you continued with your response and it was again sharp and surprising for me:
Quote:
"To answer your question again, who cares if people attached to reasoning are thrown off by the contradictions in the Bhagavatam?"
So Maharaj intervened with:
"This is not a good answer to a valid question. While it may be good to point out the limitation of reasoning it is also important to make sense out of the text as far as possible. "Why are there contradictions?" This question deserves more of an answer than, "Don't try to understand with your reason." "
And I thought that maybe I was not the only one who sees sharpness in your responses.
Then I have posted a second topic in "Q & A" - "Brahma gayatri - to be given to women or not?"
And for my surprise again I found your post sharp. And again Maharaj commented on it.
Quote:
"Otherwise I think you other comment, Syamasundara dasa, (gaya-tri) is lacking taste and is an inappropriate way to talk about some like NM."
At other topic I met another sharp comment of yours.
Quote:
"You either take it in toto, or you can stay with your doubts while your body decays."
Generally when one objects ANYTHING that you have said, then you start explaining (actually blaming the person) that he/she absolutely didn't get the point of what you have said or meant.
Then I continued reading through the forum seeing many interesting topics all around and I kept on seeing that very often your comments and posts were sharp and that Maharaj was also commenting on them.
Quote:
"Overall I found your post/report, Syamasundara, to be repulsive, filled as it was with cynicism."
And because I don't want to go on giving you quotes from the forum, will give you just one last example from the last message you posted towards me here.
Quote:
"I don't know you, why should I have such intense feelings about you as you claim?"
Don't you see? It's all around your posts... this desire to bite the other in any possible aspect. I was not claiming that you have "intense feelings about me". My claim goes much beyond - that you act very sharply in your responses and if one objects ANYTHING written by you, your sharpness takes personal. And as a whole this seems pretty vindictive and mean. Because actually by saying this last thing you are accusing me that if I dare to find you sharp and vindictive, this necessarily implies that I am finding myself very important as much as being able to provoke in you some intense feelings about myself, which is actually not possible at all. What is this? A gentleman behavior? With other words what you have written means: "Who the hell you think you are to even imagine that I could possibly have any feelings towards you which can make me act sharply or vindictively?"
And let's remember that all this argument started from WHAT? That I just didn't agree with a vision of yours towards a movie... And I expressed my disagreement as a joke, with a lot of smilies. And then you started explaining me how stupid actually I am by not understanding your point. I understood your point, I just didn't share it and dared to mention it.
Don't worry, I got the meaning of the vultures story - that one of them had higher spiritual vision than the other and it's pretty obvious as well which is the "other"
What bothers me and makes me worry is your overall attitude. I find it sharp, often cinical and repulsive.
Had no intention to make here all these critical analyses of your overall performance. I am just a guest here and a newcomer, but you asked me for it so I did it. I have no intention to put you down in the eyes of the other devotees here, neither that you and I make a competition of eloquence here, but I see that no matter how many times somebody finds a post of your sharp and objects it, your mind always succeeds to go around this saying "he/she did not get my point, I meant actually something else." In this way you always find the fault not in your own performance, but in the lack of depth of understanding from the other. Even when Maharaj makes a remark, you apologize and then you just go on the same way. It's great that you are able to appreciate and accept when he says something, but anytime when somebody else mentions the same thing, you accuse the person of "not getting the gist".
Do you want to know the opinion of others? Do you want to try to see the world also through their eyes or you are happy with your own vision and don't need such an extra diversity? Can you suppose that your watch can possibly be not "on time" and are you ready to take the brave step of asking somebody else "what's the time, please?" in order to compare it with what your personal watch shows?
If you are ready to try, you can ask the other devotees here about their opinion. I am also eager to adjust my watch, this is finally why I am here, for getting finer tuning. Tune me please! Who knows, maybe I am too sensitive and see shadows where there are no shadows. I am ready to check my vision here and now and adjust it to reality as it is.
So I am begging the devotees to correct me if I am wrong in all this. And I am ready to hear it here, in public, not in private messages and I promise to accept the opinion of the group as a vision closer to reality than my own. We are a family and if there is something wrong with my vision, please correct me.
If you are ready to do the same and ask the opinion of the other devotees here, let's take the trip together. Anyway I am rather a guest and you are rather a host. It's your home. Do as you like.
Yamuna Dasi - September 24, 2008 12:09 pm
We are gathered in this forum as Maharaj had written in the Svagatam (welcome) post of his:
“Tattva-viveka means deliberation (viveka) on truth (tattva). This exercise is necessary for devotees… Asking questions is as important as giving answers.”
Actually we are here to learn and to exercise the way to present the tattva (truth) to people by first learning what this truth is. But as we all know, there is something beyond tattva, and that is the realm of feelings. Gita's commentary of Maharaj is named “Bhagavad Gita - It's Feeling and Philosophy”. For some years I was quoting wrongly the title of the book as “Bhagavad Gita - It's Philosphy and Feeling” till Krishna did not make me the great joke of inspiring me to start translating it in order to find out that I had not even read and remembered correctly even the title! Even though outwardly I was amazed by the book, I had not even remembered and understood rightly its title. It was not “philosophy and feeling”, it was vice versa “FEELING and philosophy”! This made me reconsider my whole approach to the idea of translating it. Something was wrong with me, deeply wrong! If I would like to do so, I have to ask for blessings for this effort first, if I want at all it to be service, not just a personal burst of enthusiasm for flattering my “devotional” ego. So I asked my shiksha guru B.K.Tirtha Maharaj to bless me in this effort making it service, not just a whimsical desire. He did. Then next step is that I had to ask for the permission and blessing Tripurari Maharaj, the author, it's his book. So I called him and he kindly gave me both permission and blessings to do it. Then I started… but all of a sudden I realized that my feeling towards Arjuna was shadowed… by some doubts regarding his moral performance due to some stories from Mahabharata. I realized that how can I be translating Gita if I have a problem understanding some actions of Arjuna and this casts some shadow on my feelings towards him? I was not able to see him very brightly from the deep shadows of these doubts. So I wrote Maharaj through Sanga putting him all my questions regarding the moral and ethical aspects of the behavior of Arjuna and the Pandavas. For my great happiness he responded me and also some mystically arranged situations happened in such a way, that I regained my bright vision and appreciation for Arjuna and the Pandavas. And I thought that maybe now I am finally ready to start translating Gita. I called Maharaj to thank him for responding my question, giving my thanks by phone seemed more personal to me than just sending an email, and all of a sudden for my greatest surprise he invited me to this forum, about which existence I did not even know.
Looking backwards I can see the connection and the divine arrangement behind all these events. It was my path towards the feeling - closer to the divine feeling, the real gist of all that matters.
Yes, we are here to deliberate (viveka) on truth (tattva), but the highest truth/reality is finally a feeling… and it could be reached also only through feeling. Feeling is the frame of tattva and also the goal of tattva. So we are here also to exercise our feeling capacity, not just tattva. And we are here also to exercise the feeling frame in which we can present tattva. It's not enough to say something that is true as a claim. If we want to reach those who listen, we have to say it in the right way. That right way seems to be the path of sweetness. We have to speak sweetly about the sweetness. If we cannot do this, the message would not be delivered. If we are presenting the tattva of karma to people, but we have no real compassion to the karmically bounded souls, our message to “get liberated from karma” is not supported by an extended hand and remains just a cold slogan.
Feeling is the frame… and feeling is the goal.
And our path should necessarily pass through refining our feelings if we ever wish to be able to represent the message of “Bhagavad Gita - It's Feeling and Philosophy”.
Syamasundara - September 24, 2008 7:03 pm
Dear Yamuna,
Sorry if my words hurt you to this point, and thanks for the collection of quotes; it's a research I meant to do myself, and I never made the time for it.
Believe it or not, I read my posts around 3 times every time, as I am quite aware that I may be out of place sometimes, or all over the place, or sharp. I am not denying I may be or have been sharp, what I asked is why sharper? Sharper than what? Shrper since when? And why vindictive? It's not that you humiliated me in public, so I did something to retaliate, or anything like that.
I am simply responding to your messages, the words used and their meaning. I recognize that sometimes I should go in roundabout ways or overexplain things, because written communication can be quite tricky, and like I said, I revise my posts many times before posting them.
I found some of your analyses a touch unfair and tweaked. At this point I am stuck, because we are way out of the theme of this thread by now, and you refused to go on in private, which I would have very gladly done. I am not against having a public debate either, I just wonder how many people would really jump into it.
This is the third time that I've found myself ping-ponging with someone whose mother tongue is not English, like me, and there is some refraction between what I say, and what they understand, and their responses tweak time, space and logic, which makes me respond in turn in exasperation... and everybody else just reads passively, as if it was a personal argument that they are repulsed from getting involved with.
So, I won't really defend myself point for point. Your overall charge (about my sharpness) is true after all. Why not work on it anyway and forget self-assertion.
What I have to strongly dissent on, though, is certain statements such as me using "you don't get my point" as a weapon or shield, and that I only listen to something when it's Swami saying it.
It's probably not my place to say it, but while you advocate satyam bruhyat priyam bruhyat (truth should be said in a pleasant way), which is one of my favorite aphorisms, your analysis seemed selective, and lacking consideration for other posts of mine, that were very inspired, or inspirational, or received praise, or posts where my self-criticism and analysis wasn't lacking.
Other than that, the only host here is Swami, and I never meant to be unwelcoming to you.
Yamuna Dasi - September 24, 2008 9:40 pm
Dear Syamasundara,
I did not refuse to go on in private, I just proposed to the devotees in this forum that if they find me wrong in what I wrote to feel free to say it in public, not in private. I am ready to accept it this way.
I am also aware that English is not my native language, this is why I did not hurry to draw my conclusion that your posts are often sharp before seeing that other devotees here, for who English is a native language, also do find them sharp.
Also my point is not to humiliate you, because this brings no happiness to my heart. You asked for quotes, I gave them. I was following your request. Of course you can blame me that quotes are out of context or that they were "sellected and arranged", but if something is a quote it will by nature be so. I did what you requested hoping that this can be helpful to see from other point of view.
And because I am aware that it was me giving you these quotes, which still includes inevitably some subjectivity, I proposed you to get a broader view by asking the opinion of the other devotees as well. I am not telling you to accept my subjective view, I am asking you to take a brave step and ask the others... if you would like of course to know how they see it... and if you consider that the sum of their opinions will be a view closer to reality.
You are asking me "Sharper than what? Shrper since when? And why vindictive?"
Sharper than necessary... sharper than the polite tone and gentleman code supposes... sharper than a response of a vaishnava is expected to be.
Sharper since when? - I was not making a comparison in time, I don't know you for some longer period, so using "sharper" was not regarding time.
And why vindictive? - Because as I mentioned in your responses you are getting sharper as one objects anything you said and this sharpness takes quite personal direction. This makes if look quite vindictive.
"Why not work on it anyway and forget self-assertion."
Don't you see that you are again blaming me? That by writing all this the way as you requested it ("Quotations are welcome.") I am actually just pursuing "self-assertion".
Please, try to look at all this conversation from a distance, look what it is as a whole - you ask me to prove my point by giving you quotations, I do so, but you object that they are quotes and arranged and out of context (is there ANY other way for quotes being given if not to some extent cut and extracted from the context and presented in a certain order?)... and again that since English is not my mother tongue this could have been the problem (again a problem arising from my side, not from yours)... and finally that the purpose of me giving all these quotes is "self-assertion".
The way you are leading an argument gives absolutely no chance for the other side to say ANYTHING that you would not turn against the opponent. Even if you set the rules of the argument and even if the other person is trying his best to follow the rules set by you, still you turn around everything leaving no chance that the message could reach you.
You accused me that my "analysis seemed selective" - well, it is selective because you asked me to give you quotes to support my thesis regarding your sharpness. So I was following the topic set and so did the selection of quotes.
You accused me that I did not quote other posts of yours "that were very inspired, or inspirational, or received praise, or posts where my self-criticism and analysis wasn't lacking". One is quoting what supports the thesis, not anything and everything. Would you like me to post a quote of all the forum with it's few years old history? Is this the only way to be objective for you? Sorry, but this is technically impossible and is not the way for an argument to be run.
You found some of my analyses "a touch unfair and tweaked". OK, I propose the same - let's adjust our watches with the devotees here. I will accept their opinion. Would you?
I don't know the devotees here. You said that they would not like to give an opinion. OK, most probably you know them better since you are here from much longer than me and since most probably you know many of them personally and from years. But I am ready to try. I appreciate their delicacy, but I hope to hear from them. At least I would ask for their opinion. Would you?
And don't worry, your words did not hurt me "to this point". I am a professional trainer, no problem. It's just a conversation, which entered the realm of an argument.
Prahlad Das - September 25, 2008 12:27 am
Dear Sister Yamuna Dasi and Brother Shyamasundar,
I understand Shyamasundar's statement, "Why not work on it anyway and forget self-assertion." to be pertaining to himself. If one were to place his comment in context with the previous sentences it would support this. I'll repost it for re-reading.
So, I won't really defend myself point for point. Your overall charge (about my sharpness) is true after all. Why not work on it anyway and forget self-assertion.
By reading that statement in association with its surroundings I personally see it as Shyamasundar's acceptance of Yamuna's charge about his sharpness and choosing to work on it (forgetting self assertion) leaving himself defenseless in this regard.
Just a thought.
My comment is really aimed at the both of you, Shyamasundar Das and Yamuna Dasi because I feel that somehow the both of you are misunderstanding each other and are beginning to interact in a argumentatively reactive verbose way. The misunderstood quote is a prime example of what I mean. Shyamasundar, please correct me if I was wrong with my understanding of what you said.
Please forgive my intrusion, I hope this meets the both of you well
Yamuna Dasi - September 25, 2008 1:01 am
Thank you, Prahlad Prabhu!
Obviously it's my mistake putting this statement along with all the other claims placed against my post. I am happy that this one was not such
This makes all my remarks regarding self-assertion irrelevant. What a relief!
Prahlad Das - September 25, 2008 3:55 am
Thank you, Prahlad Prabhu!
Obviously it's my mistake putting this statement along with all the other claims placed against my post. I am happy that this one was not such
This makes all my remarks regarding self-assertion irrelevant. What a relief!
We are all hoping to be our perfect selves. This is why we are attracted to Vaishnava sanga. The Vaishnava mahatama is a self-realized perfected soul. We bow to these sadhus and hope they will teach us how we can perfect our selves. This association with them soothes us and comforts us.
We should try to act in such a way that they will notice us and take kindly to us. They are the reservoir of all good character...
bhavad-vidha bhagavatas
tirtha-bhutah svayam vibho
tirthi-kurvanti tirthani
svantah-sthena gadabhrita
My Lord, devotees like your good self are verily holy places personified. Because you carry the Personality of Godhead within your heart, you turn all places into places of pilgrimage.
S.B. 1.13.10
Where else but in the association (or due to the association) of these great saints and serving them can we truly experience "Being in the world, not of it".
Haribolo!!!
Prahlad Das - September 25, 2008 4:03 am
na hy am-mayani tirthani
na deva mric-chila-mayah
te punanty uru-kalena
darsanad eva sadhavah
Mere bodies of water are not the real sacred places of pilgrimage, nor are mere images of earth and stone the true worshipable deities. These purify one only after a long time, but saintly sages purify one immediately upon being seen.
S.B. 10.84.11
Prahlad Das - September 25, 2008 4:49 am
I once attended a Vaishnava discourse where the speaker discussed the response of Dharma to Maharaj Pariksit, after being questioned about his legs. Dharma placed no blame on anyone and wouldn't do so. He suffered his pain and asked, instead, for the King's judgement. It was encouraging to know that we can delete so much unnecessary stuff from our life just by trying to cultivate this type of attitude.
SB 1.17.12 - He [Maharaja Pariksit] repeatedly addressed and questioned the bull thus: O son of Surabhi, who has cut off your three legs? In the state of the kings who are obedient to the laws of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, there is no one as unhappy as you....
SB 1.17.13 - O bull, you are offenseless and thoroughly honest; therefore I wish all good to you. Please tell me of the perpetrator of these mutilations, which blackmail the reputation of the sons of Pritha.
SB 1.17.14 - Whoever causes offenseless living beings to suffer must fear me anywhere and everywhere in the world. By curbing dishonest miscreants, one automatically benefits the offenseless.
SB 1.17.15 - An upstart living being who commits offenses by torturing those who are offenseless shall be directly uprooted by me, even though he be a denizen of heaven with armor and decorations.
SB 1.17.16 - The supreme duty of the ruling king is to give all protection to law-abiding persons and to chastise those who stray from the ordinances of the scriptures in ordinary times, when there is no emergency.
SB 1.17.17 - The personality of religion said: These words just spoken by you befit a person of the Pandava dynasty. Captivated by the devotional qualities of the Pandavas, even Lord Krishna, the Personality of Godhead, performed duties as a messenger.
SB 1.17.18 - O greatest among human beings, it is very difficult to ascertain the particular miscreant who has caused our sufferings, because we are bewildered by all the different opinions of theoretical philosophers.
SB 1.17.19 - Some of the philosophers, who deny all sorts of duality, declare that one’s own self is responsible for his personal happiness and distress. Others say that superhuman powers are responsible, while yet others say that activity is responsible, and the gross materialists maintain that nature is the ultimate cause.
SB 1.17.20 - There are also some thinkers who believe that no one can ascertain the cause of distress by argumentation, nor know it by imagination, nor express it by words. O sage amongst kings, judge for yourself by thinking over all this with your own intelligence.
SB 1.17.21 - Suta Gosvami said: O best among the brahmanas, the Emperor Parikshit, thus hearing the personality of religion speak, was fully satisfied, and without mistake or regret he gave his reply.
SB 1.17.22 - The King said: O you, who are in the form of a bull! You know the truth of religion, and you are speaking according to the principle that the destination intended for the perpetrator of irreligious acts is also intended for one who identifies the perpetrator. You are no other than the personality of religion.
Audarya-lila Dasa - September 25, 2008 6:25 am
Thank you Prahlad Prabhu! Soothing words indeed.
My only opinion on this 'controversy' is that it is a distraction at best. Syamasundara merely pointed out that as a devotee he feels blessed that he can think of Krsna by seeing things even remotely resembling him or his lila. Yamuna merely pointed out that she didn't see the comparison between the English Queen and Radha the same way. Viva la difference. Let's leave it at that. I find it wonderful that Syamasundara is reminded of Krsna and his lila and I also find it wonderful that Yamuna took the opportunity to see the difference.
What I think should be dropped from the public discourse is the personal afronts - we can agree to disagree tastefully and respectfully.
There - I gave an opinion - though I do feel as Syamasundara suggested and I would guess that most others would feel the same.
Tadiya Dasi - September 25, 2008 3:40 pm
Congratulations, Bhrigu & Laura!!
I enjoyed reading your thoughts about being a father...and I look forward to meeting your daughter!
Babhru Das - September 25, 2008 7:35 pm
Congratulations to you both, Bhrigu. Reading your initial impressions reminded me so much of how I felt when my first daughter was born. The adventure begins!
Yamuna Dasi - September 26, 2008 5:01 pm
If "destination intended for the perpetrator of irreligious acts is also intended for one who identifies the perpetrator", do we take it that we should never name something that is not nice "not nice" or that is wrong "wrong", because it will make us equal to the person who is doing it?
Where remains the requirement to be able to discriminate and to be sincere?
If the society would follow this quote there should be no police, no public prosecutors, no jurnalists... and everybody would keep deadly silent when anything wrong is done.
Now I am witnessing a sad problem in one ashram here which looks quite much as blind following of this quote.
The temple president told one by one to everybody practically about one new devotee that he is mentally sick and was on a medical treatment before. That devotee felt that something is wrong and the others are saying and doing strange things regarding him, but he cannot understand what happens and why. I told him that maybe they are more careful in communicating with him because of his previous mental illness problems and treatment. He was incredibly surprised and told me that he was never having such problem and was never medically treated and asked me what to do. I told him to go and speak in private with the temple president and ask her why did she tell this to everybody if it's not true and to be careful to do it in private in order not to intimidate the person. Finally it's possible that she was badly informed. He went to the temple president and asked her why did she tell such a lie to everybody. She denied telling this to anybody. The others also don't confirm that they were realy told this and this is the truth and that devotee is not going any more to the temple because feels as in science fiction nightmare and still cannot believe that such thing happens...
Is this the ideal model of following "destination intended for the perpetrator of irreligious acts is also intended for one who identifies the perpetrator"? Nobody wants to be a lier so everybody lies and nobody tells the truth... Would be much easier to say the truth and the temple president to apologise to the hurt devotee, or this seems to contradict the quote?
Bhrigu - October 4, 2008 2:55 pm
Anuradha and I offer our heartfelt congratulations, Bhrigu Prabhu!!! When will you give her a name?
Today (asvina sukla pancami, kanya rasi, anuradha naksatra) we had the nama-karana-samskara, and she received the names Radha Rebecka. Thank you everyone for your blessings and congratulations! We feel very fortunate to be the parents of this beautiful child.
Braja-sundari Dasi - October 4, 2008 6:08 pm
Today (asvina sukla pancami, kanya rasi, anuradha naksatra) we had the nama-karana-samskara, and she received the names Radha Rebecka. Thank you everyone for your blessings and congratulations! We feel very fortunate to be the parents of this beautiful child.
Beautiful names! Let me offer some cows to the brahmana on this auspicious occasion 
:Cow: :Cow: (I wanted to offer much more... but there are some limitations on this forum )
Prahlad Das - October 4, 2008 7:48 pm
Today (asvina sukla pancami, kanya rasi, anuradha naksatra) we had the nama-karana-samskara, and she received the names Radha Rebecka. Thank you everyone for your blessings and congratulations! We feel very fortunate to be the parents of this beautiful child.
Gaura Hari!!!
Hare Krsna!!!
Welcome Radha Rebecka
Yamuna Dasi - October 4, 2008 10:53 pm
Glad to bring the topic back to its original line.
A dog bit me 3 days ago while passing through 20 meters of forest to reach my favorite sunny Gita-reading meadow. All of a sudden 4 big street dogs rushed on me barking severely and jumping to bite me. I’ve tried to look them into the eyes and not move since few times this was the way, but was impossible to keep an eye contact with all of them simultaneously since they surrounded me. When one of them bit me badly and my leg started bleeding I got it – no way, I must fight. After hurting one of them all of a sudden they all kept silent and just left. All this happened in around 60 seconds. There were many people in the park and nobody intervened even though the situation was really dangerous and in Sofia there were cases of street dogs killing people.
This story made me meditate on it when I reached my Gita-reading sunny place with a bleeding leg. All this must have happened for some purpose, to teach me something. Just recently in this thread I gave an idea to Syamasundara to ask the others about their opinion, hoping that this is the way one not to consider an opinion just a subjective point of view and disregard it. The story with the dogs showed me other aspect of reality – when surrounded by barking and biting dogs one is forced to fight and defend himself. So my idea seemed not to be as good as I thought.
Since reality is multileveled, I felt that I owe it a corresponding multilevel reading. All the incident happened when I was in the shadows of these 20 meters of forest, I entered there with a good purpose, to reach the sunny meadow, to reach beyond, but still I was right there, in the shadows when the dog bit me.
And the third aspect is that nobody got involved and it surprised me when it should not. To get into a risky situation even to save somebody requires a lot of courage and self-sacrificing spirit, and this is too high to be expected broadly. It is against the instinct of the normal human being to risk his own life for saving someone else’s, especially that of a stranger. Such a heroic act requires one to be not only beyond the realm of exploitation, but also beyond that of renounciation (keeping neutrality)… reaching the shore of divine love and mercy. Sa mahatma sudurlabha (such a great soul is very rare).
I was suffering these few days every time when I remembered how nobody came to help me and to even try to protect me. Felt so lonely and sad why people are so much afraid to even try to help and are desperately trying never to get involved. I continued to go to the same Gita-meadow and sometimes the same dogs were coming again and again… but bypassing me… sometimes barking, sometimes in complete silence. I was thinking if I should take with me something to protect myself, but finally decided that if it comes to a fight, it should be a fair fight, not using anything else. And continued somehow to suffer asking Krishna why nobody even tried to protect me… Today while I was reading Gita a small cute 4-5 years boy came to me alone and without any explanation just brought me a big thick stick, gave it to me and told me “take this, if the wolfs come to protect yourself”. Could not believe my eyes and ears! He came to protect me and tell me what to do… a little boy who knew nothing about the dogs biting me few days ago, nothing about my grieves for lack of protection, nothing about my doubts should I fight or not and if yes should I use something or fight “fairly” only with bare hands. He came so suddenly and gave response to all my questions, and melted my heart… I was not alone and I knew what I have to do. And He was also with me… I was not lost.
Shreekrishna - October 5, 2008 10:50 am
Krsna appears in mysterious ways!
Don't forget to get checked for rabies, since you did get a bite... Hare Krsna!
Yamuna Dasi - October 5, 2008 11:14 am
I was already an initiated devotee, but I had a big secret problem - I did not like Shrila Prabhupada. His style of writing was often too sharp for me, the way he was insulting sometimes the scientists was not ok for me, some statements which were in contradiction with clearly proven scientific facts were bothering me, the way he was leading an argument with some Christian or the arguments he was giving were too childish and unserious for me, his inclination to repeat one and the same thing too many times was too much, not to mention his sexist tendencies which I felt... good that at that time Krishna was saving me not to come across with the most severe of them, because my mind would have exploded. As a whole, I was not liking him. And this was bothering me more and more because my beloved Gurudeva was liking him a lot. I didn't dare to go and speak with him openly about this, I didn't want to hurt his feelings, but at the same time I was wondering how is it possible that Gurudeva does not see the things that were bothering me regarding Shrila Prabhupada, or in case he was seeing them, how come that they were not bothering him? Gurudeva was so extremely a person of the detail, so this was a real mystery for me! Anyway, I was thinking that I have to be happy that I liked him and found him so perfect, and not to bother so much if he finds Shrila Prabhupada perfect and I don't, finally it was not concerning me so directly. If SP was inspiring Gurudeva, and Gurudeva was inspiring me, then perfect! OK, nearly perfect... I was also considering that I am a leaf on the branch of SP, so a leaf cannot cut off the branch on which is growing even if not liking it completely. If that "imperfect" SP wouldn't have got on that ship with 2 heat attacks behind and with 5 $ in his pocket, I would not have had my Gurudeva! So even if I was not able to see as perfect every detail, the final result was perfect for me! I was also a kind of working on the problem - I read his biography and my sympathy for him grew considerably. But still so many things were bothering me... and I was so unable to talk with Gurudev about them in order not to hurt his feelings... Magic circle and I was completely hopeless to get out of it!
Until one day something very mystical happened! I was not sharing with anybody my internal antagonism against SP, but all of a sudden once when we were alone Gurudev took Gita, turned it at the back cover, pointed SP's picture there and asked me looking me directly in the eyes “you don't like him, right?”
I got frozen! How did he know my secret?! Then I felt so happy - Gurudev was feeling me, he was reading both my mind and heart as an open book! And he cared about me!
He pointed the picture of SP and told me “you don't like his huge golden ring, right?” Well, this was one of the minor things which I didn't like about him, but... yes, I didn't like his big golden ring... I was not finding it proper for a sannyas at all and was thanking Krishna that Gurudeva was not wearing any rings because I would have hard time accepting him if he would.
Gurudev very seriously started telling me the story of this golden ring - he told me that it was not a decoration, but a medical aid, and that it was not SP who wanted to wear it, but his disciples made it for him and obliged him to wear it. He was ill and a vedic doctor came to see him and recommended some kind of a stone which will have good influence to cure the illness and that stone had to touch his body. The devotees ordered this huge golden ring with that stone and with a hole under the stone, so that it could touch the body. SP was wearing it just to please his disciples and make them feel good that they do care about his health.
I felt so happy that Gurudev told me this story - it made me feel much better and my feelings towards SP got much warmer. Things are not always as they seem at first glance...
Of course I didn't tell my other problems with SP to Gurudev, they remained to be solved by the time, meditation and pray. I also developed some ways of how to pacify my mind when seeing something bothering - for example when coming across some sexist words of his, I was remembering how his wife sold his Bhagavatam to buy black tea and how much this must have hurt him... when coming across some harsh words about the Jews, I was remembering my own words when I read some statistics telling that on 11th Sept. from around 1500 Jews working in the World Trade Center, none of them went to work that day... so I said “what kind of people are these, to know and not to try to save anybody else except the Jews!” I don't consider myself anti-Semite even though I said this. When I was coming to some repeatedly repeated things I was thinking that most probably the commentaries for some Gita verses were extracted from tapes and he didn't notice that it's too much repeating the same as in the previous verse... and also that his public were the American hippies and maybe they needed that much repetition to get it... Regarding his arguments with Christians and his “Christ is like Cristo... Krishna” I preferred just to disregard them as childish and period. Later on I read from Tripurari Maharaj the explanation regarding “we shall throw bombs on them if they don't understand”, that SP's part in the lila is as a gopal and that he was acting as such in this moment, not really meaning what he said... Anyway, I found some balance in my vision for SP, even though so many things were bothering me about him, but all this could happen because my Gurudev was so delicate and sensitive and touched my heart with this story about the big golden ring! Sometimes the mind cannot be beaten directly with arguments, but the heart can be melted and thus indirectly the mind can be conquered.
Recently I was reading the Hare Krishna Women blog of Vrajabhumi and I felt sad that she did not have somebody like my Gurudeva to read her mind and please her heart before her mind explodes... I also thought how many times she must have been receiving slaps and whips when asking a valid question regarding SP and some of his statements, rather than getting some tender attention and heartfelt explanation, even if it being rather emotional than logical. This could prevent her wrath towards him and would most probably remove the magnifying glass through which she was looking at his mistakes, because for so long nobody wanted to openly admit that these were mistakes. Perfection can be explained on other levels, not on the simple ground of “lack of any mistake”. Such higher vision about perfection is necessary for us to grow... and to love.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 5, 2008 1:41 pm
I was already an initiated devotee, but I had a big secret problem - I did not like Shrila Prabhupada. His style of writing was often too sharp for me, the way he was insulting sometimes the scientists was not ok for me, some statements which were in contradiction with clearly proven scientific facts were bothering me, the way he was leading an argument with some Christian or the arguments he was giving were too childish and unserious for me, his inclination to repeat one and the same thing too many times was too much, not to mention his sexist tendencies which I felt... good that at that time Krishna was saving me not to come across with the most severe of them, because my mind would have exploded. As a whole, I was not liking him. And this was bothering me more and more because my beloved Gurudeva was liking him a lot. I didn't dare to go and speak with him openly about this, I didn't want to hurt his feelings, but at the same time I was wondering how is it possible that Gurudeva does not see the things that were bothering me regarding Shrila Prabhupada, or in case he was seeing them, how come that they were not bothering him? Gurudeva was so extremely a person of the detail, so this was a real mystery for me! Anyway, I was thinking that I have to be happy that I liked him and found him so perfect, and not to bother so much if he finds Shrila Prabhupada perfect and I don't, finally it was not concerning me so directly. If SP was inspiring Gurudeva, and Gurudeva was inspiring me, then perfect! OK, nearly perfect... I was also considering that I am a leaf on the branch of SP, so a leaf cannot cut off the branch on which is growing even if not liking it completely. If that "imperfect" SP wouldn't have got on that ship with 2 heat attacks behind and with 5 $ in his pocket, I would not have had my Gurudeva! So even if I was not able to see as perfect every detail, the final result was perfect for me! I was also a kind of working on the problem - I read his biography and my sympathy for him grew considerably. But still so many things were bothering me... and I was so unable to talk with Gurudev about them in order not to hurt his feelings... Magic circle and I was completely hopeless to get out of it!
Until one day something very mystical happened! I was not sharing with anybody my internal antagonism against SP, but all of a sudden once when we were alone Gurudev took Gita, turned it at the back cover, pointed SP's picture there and asked me looking me directly in the eyes “you don't like him, right?”
I got frozen! How did he know my secret?! Then I felt so happy - Gurudev was feeling me, he was reading both my mind and heart as an open book! And he cared about me!
He pointed the picture of SP and told me “you don't like his huge golden ring, right?” Well, this was one of the minor things which I didn't like about him, but... yes, I didn't like his big golden ring... I was not finding it proper for a sannyas at all and was thanking Krishna that Gurudeva was not wearing any rings because I would have hard time accepting him if he would.
Gurudev very seriously started telling me the story of this golden ring - he told me that it was not a decoration, but a medical aid, and that it was not SP who wanted to wear it, but his disciples made it for him and obliged him to wear it. He was ill and a vedic doctor came to see him and recommended some kind of a stone which will have good influence to cure the illness and that stone had to touch his body. The devotees ordered this huge golden ring with that stone and with a hole under the stone, so that it could touch the body. SP was wearing it just to please his disciples and make them feel good that they do care about his health.
I felt so happy that Gurudev told me this story - it made me feel much better and my feelings towards SP got much warmer. Things are not always as they seem at first glance...
Of course I didn't tell my other problems with SP to Gurudev, they remained to be solved by the time, meditation and pray. I also developed some ways of how to pacify my mind when seeing something bothering - for example when coming across some sexist words of his, I was remembering how his wife sold his Bhagavatam to buy black tea and how much this must have hurt him... when coming across some harsh words about the Jews, I was remembering my own words when I read some statistics telling that on 11th Sept. from around 1500 Jews working in the World Trade Center, none of them went to work that day... so I said “what kind of people are these, to know and not to try to save anybody else except the Jews!” I don't consider myself anti-Semite even though I said this. When I was coming to some repeatedly repeated things I was thinking that most probably the commentaries for some Gita verses were extracted from tapes and he didn't notice that it's too much repeating the same as in the previous verse... and also that his public were the American hippies and maybe they needed that much repetition to get it... Regarding his arguments with Christians and his “Christ is like Cristo... Krishna” I preferred just to disregard them as childish and period. Later on I read from Tripurari Maharaj the explanation regarding “we shall throw bombs on them if they don't understand”, that SP's part in the lila is as a gopal and that he was acting as such in this moment, not really meaning what he said... Anyway, I found some balance in my vision for SP, even though so many things were bothering me about him, but all this could happen because my Gurudev was so delicate and sensitive and touched my heart with this story about the big golden ring! Sometimes the mind cannot be beaten directly with arguments, but the heart can be melted and thus indirectly the mind can be conquered.
Recently I was reading the Hare Krishna Women blog of Vrajabhumi and I felt sad that she did not have somebody like my Gurudeva to read her mind and please her heart before her mind explodes... I also thought how many times she must have been receiving slaps and whips when asking a valid question regarding SP and some of his statements, rather than getting some tender attention and heartfelt explanation, even if it being rather emotional than logical. This could prevent her wrath towards him and would most probably remove the magnifying glass through which she was looking at his mistakes, because for so long nobody wanted to openly admit that these were mistakes. Perfection can be explained on other levels, not on the simple ground of “lack of any mistake”. Such higher vision about perfection is necessary for us to grow... and to love.
I don't like the idea of just thinking that the Guru is a mind reader so you don't have to tell anything to them. This tendancy has caused a lot of problems before.
Prahlad Das - October 5, 2008 4:44 pm
I don't like the idea of just thinking that the Guru is a mind reader so you don't have to tell anything to them. This tendancy has caused a lot of problems before.
I don't know if that is what Yamuna is saying. Although she did indicate that there were things she felt uncomfortable addressing, knowing it would cause sadness to her Guru.
This brings up a question: When is the right time to bring up a potentially antagonistic question?
I see your point; just thinking Guru is a mind reader is not healthy, but every disciple has the feeling that somehow Guru knows their heart. This is integral to Guru-disciple relationship. Krsna appears within the Guru form to address the disciple's heart.
Yamuna Dasi - October 5, 2008 9:10 pm
I don't like the idea of just thinking that the Guru is a mind reader so you don't have to tell anything to them. This tendancy has caused a lot of problems before.
Of course it’s not a good idea hiding our mind from Sri Guru, the story was a glorification of Gurudeva and Krishna’s divine arrangement, not of my stupidity.
This happened 17-18 years ago, I was a very young and inexperienced devotee and Bulgaria was a socialist country where religious preaching was punished with prison. The first devotee who preached to me was killed after being few times in prison. Gurudev was coming once or twice per year in Bulgaria and just for 2-3 days, so when I had the chance to see him I was rather eager to hear from him and afraid that he could be caught. There was no Internet and email, just snail mail which could be checked by the state. It was not much time to ask him about my problems accepting some statements of SP, also not my priority. It was such a fortune to see him that all the rest seemed insignificant and was fading, what to say about asking him a question which could hurt his feelings. I was able to imagine that what was he for me, same was SP for him and I would not advice anybody to even think about saying anything against Gurudev!
I hardly knew him and he was such a mystery for me. After this story I felt him much closer and was able to ask him openly anything. I was even asking him weird questions like “Gurudev, how can you say the things that you say, they are so amazing?” (Just imagine how is one supposed to answer such a question?!) 
Or “Devotees say that if I dream you it’s true, not just a dream. I dreamed you and in my dream I asked you some questions, should I accept the answers you gave me in my dream?” Or “Gurudev, I’ve heard the devotees saying that during the initiation the Guru is taking the karma of the disciple, did you do it really?”
This story was just the beginning of my bombarding him with questions…
Yamuna Dasi - October 6, 2008 3:58 pm
I was thinking about the idea of “fair fight”, the one that I mentioned regarding the fight with the dogs. And I remembered an interesting rendering to a story from Ramayana, which is one of the very few stories, which meet criticism against Rama's perfect character (together with sending away of Sita). The author of the book “The Symbolism of Hindu Gods and Rituals” seems to be an impersonalist, but the rendering given to the story is interesting.
Here it is:
“Another serious criticism of Rama's character is his apparent cowardice when he hid behind a tree to shoot his arrow at Vali. Vai and Sugriva were kings of the monkeys. Vali was the vicious king who threw his brother Sugriva out and usurped the throne. On Sugriva's representation to Rama, Rama devised a plan to help him out of his troubles. He bade Sugriva challenge his brother and fight him. As the fight was in progress Rama shot down Vali from his hiding place behind a tree. Here again is the friend in Rama blown up to a point of fault. Rama would go to any extent to help a friend. Besides this character being demonstrated there is a deeper mystical significance in this episode which Valmiki is trying to convey to mankind.
Vali, the vicious and immoral brother, represents lust, the lower nature of man. Sugriva, the virtuous and moral brother, represents man's higher nature. Vali is said to have gone through extensive austerity, tapas and earned a boon. By this boon he acquired half of the strength of the adversary whom he met in battle. Consequently, he was able to overpower anyone because half of the strength gained thereby plus his own was always more than that of the opponent. All this was meant to convey that the sense-objects of the world are extremely powerful. The power of lust has toppled great minds. The moment man comes in contact with the sense-objects the latter draws away half his strength and overpowers him. Man becomes slave to his own senses. In this episode Valmiki suggests to mankind the means of overcoming the power of lust. As long as man I in the midst of sense-objects it is extremely difficult to exercise his control and overcome temptations. The way to deal with them successfully is to stay away from them initially until he gains sufficient control over them. This is a practical approach to self-control. This is not to be construed as escapism. When a man is already under the influence of the senses he cannot afford to mix freely with the sense-objects in question. The initial abstinence is therefore recommended as a practical approach to gain the control over them. Once man gains self-control he can then afford to mix freely with the sense-objects. This idea is communicated by Rama avoiding Vali and shooting him from a distance.”
Is there a Vaishnava commentary on this story?
Maybe this example of Rama's partiality as a friend can be compared to Krishna's partiality to his devotees as stated by him in BG 9.29, even though Rama was usually representing rather the impartial and just aspect of Divinity and not the partial one. But such an additional symbolic rendering seems interesting as well.
Rama's partiality as a friend seems very strong, but it's strange why his partiality as a husband towards Sita was less than his partiality as a king pleasing the objection of a drunken subject of his by sacrificing his most devoted wife. Or maybe the idea is the readiness of God to sacrifice himself for us and thus repentance and responsibility to be evoked in our hearts (same as in the self-sacrificial act of Jesus), the same idea of God sacrificing himself for our sins.