Tattva-viveka
Responsibility of the Guru
Jason - January 25, 2005 7:52 pm
Hare Krsna!
I'm having a bit of a dillema lately and was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of some reading on the duties of a spiritual master. I know that the disciple has to live up to certain requirements, but I was wondering about how the spiritual master need to address things like, understanding where the student is at in his/her life (materially as well as spiritually).
I know this may be a vague question, but outside of "Spiritual Master And The Disciple" is there some more essential reading one could reccomend???
YS,
Jason
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - January 25, 2005 8:58 pm
Jason - February 3, 2005 7:47 pm
Thanks for your suggestion of reading "Sri Guru And His Grace". I actually had read the book, but took your words to heart and started to thumb through it again. In addition to that, after reading the various posts about the health of Bhakti Tirtha Swami (and noticing the mood of the exchange between Tripurari Maharaja and Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja), a few statements made in the book "came to life".
Sridhar Swami is talking about the various manifestations of guru (sastra, siksa, diksa, nama, mantra) and how it is our duty to accept them all. He goes on to discuss how we should view the acharyas of different sampradayas as well. The following quotes really struck a chord with me:
"And if the truth is found in a substantial way somewhere else, that should be accepted. Wherever there is devotion and the correct consideration about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, our guru is there. Who is our guru? He is not to be found in physical form; our guru is to be traced wherever we find the embodiment of the pure thought and understanding which Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu imparted to save us."
"If anyone has the ability to understand things properly, he will run wherever he finds help. If a man in a boat is passing through the current and finds himself in danger, then from whatever side help may come, he must run to that side."
"If we are sincerely searching after the real truth, then wherever we go may be a contribution to our experience for further preaching in the future. If we go somewhere, hoping with all sincerity that our thirst will be quenched, but find that it is not quenched, and feel some uneasiness, then, by the grace of the Lord, a connection with higher truth with come, and we will go somewhere else...gradually we will again find dissatisfaction, the need for something higher, and again we will progress further. In this way we may cross many guru paramparas before ultimately attaining the Vraja lila of Krsna as given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."
In the first quote it's interesting that Srila Sridhar Maharaja uses the word "substantial". The ultimate truth is always substantial, but I think that he's refering to the presentation of the truth as well. Perhaps a substantial presentation to some, isn't substantial to others? A mundane example may be how some math teachers can present the complexities of their subject in a manner that the students can REALLY understand. I found that I understood my Trigonometry class better when we did experiments in physics class (I could actually see the math in action). So many persons are presenting the philosophy of Krsna consciousness; and it's all the Ultimate Truth, but some present it in a much more practical, beautiful and even tangible way. I think it's the DUTY of the guru to not just be able to preach, but to enliven and inspire the disciple NO MATTER where he/she is at in their current spiritual life. I've often found that some gurus preach in a manner that leaves many persons feeling like, "Wow, if I ever get to that point in spiritual life, I've got something to look forward to." Then the student feels like they aren't being taken into consideration for where they're at presently. It becomes disheartening to think that you'll never measure up to the level of devotion and surrender that is often portrayed as where you should be. For a neophyte devotee who wants nothing more than to make some advancement and please the spiritual master, the idea that their spiritual master can't accept them for where they are and encourage them on that level, has got to be the worst feeling ever. Maybe it's "transcendental pressure" and it should be cathartic, but sometimes it's just unrealistic pressure.
The second sentence in the last quote is actually what I often pray for. I've developed a particular relationship with a spiritual master over several years, but I'm not sure if I have the same feelings that I did over a year ago. There is an "uneasiness" and it's almost heart-wrenching. So, when I chant, I'm also praying that I gain a better understanding of what to do. At least Srila Sridhar Maharaja ensures that as one desires something more, it will come. Patience has always been my favorite virtue.
I would love to hear some other advice.
YS,
Jason
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - February 3, 2005 10:09 pm
I'm not sure Sridhar Swami is advocating jumping from one guru to another and to another, kind of guru-shopping. You might have many siksa gurus, but only one is truly your Gurudeva. It's not fanatical amar-guru jagat-guru. It feels like home, it just feels right. It’s that quiet, warm feeling of dissolving in the surrounding, like sitting in a warm sunny spot in early spring. You don't have to pretend, be someone else. Like your parents' house. Sometimes you get spanked, sometimes rewarded, but always unconditionally loved. You can travel very far to get learned, to get life experience, but always always come back home.
Guru-nistha Das - February 4, 2005 5:33 pm
Nice thoughts, Jason.
This part was especially interesting:
"I think it's the DUTY of the guru to not just be able to preach, but to enliven and inspire the disciple NO MATTER where he/she is at in their current spiritual life. I've often found that some gurus preach in a manner that leaves many persons feeling like, "Wow, if I ever get to that point in spiritual life, I've got something to look forward to." Then the student feels like they aren't being taken into consideration for where they're at presently. It becomes disheartening to think that you'll never measure up to the level of devotion and surrender that is often portrayed as where you should be."
I'm of course highly biased, but let me share my story. I have been into Krsna Consciousness for eight years now and I always thought I would not get initiated in this life time. I was sure about it. I thought that I can't make the commitment, but meeting Guru Maharaja changed that quite radically. I realized that my previous hesitation was nto so much because of my ability to surrender, as I thought, but it was more about not having heard a presentation before that would thoroughly convince me. Based on my personal experience I would definately say that GM has an ability to see where people are at and relate to them accordingly. That's a characteristic of his I was totally blown away by, and still am.
It's also interesting that his books go so high and still his dealings with people are so down to earth...
As I said I'm biased like a corrupt government. But anyway, I really hope you'll find just the right mentor for you. And I fully agree with your opinion about patience. I wouldn't probably be at Audarya now if I had made hasty decisions.
Vrindaranya Dasi - February 5, 2005 5:21 pm
Dandavats,
You asked for some more advice, so here is my two-cents’ worth.
I totally understand your not wanting to be overwhelmed by unrealistic expectations. One of the ornaments of my Guru Maharaja is that he gives realistic expectations even when it means taking some heat from the devotee community, which is a sign of his great strength, imho.
Nonetheless, a few things stick out to me that I thought might make for an interesting counterpoint to the benefits of a guru having realistic expectations.
The first idea is that a guru really has only one duty, and that is to be Krsna conscious. By this I don’t mean the ability to espouse canned “Krsna conscious” dogma, but advancement in bhakti (they love Krsna and as a byproduct of this are free from material illusion). Whatever such a person does will be good for us. Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur’s guru, was quite sharp and doesn’t fit well with Western ideas of supportiveness, for example. Bhaktisiddhanta himself, for that matter, was very demanding of his disciples, as was Srila Prabhupada.
Although there is a problem of gurus having unrealistic expectations, the same goes for disciples. These unrealistic expectations often fall into idealizations of what a perfect person would be like, and given the prevalence of ideas of what a balanced, supportive, enlightened person should act, these are pressed onto the guru. Of course, no one could live up to these idealized expectations for a person, and so they set one up for disappointment.
I think that the following idea:
I think it's the DUTY of the guru to not just be able to preach, but to enliven and inspire the disciple NO MATTER where he/she is at in their current spiritual life.
would fall into the category of unrealistic expectations, unless you meant enliven and inspire in a very general way and not on a permanent basis. The inspiration of the disciple is as much if not more the prerogative of the disciple as it is of the guru. Not even Mahaprabhu could keep all his followers enlivened at all times (case in point, Kala Krsnadasa).
I hope this perspective is of help to you. Best wishes in the task of sorting out the complex issue of Guru-tattva. 
Ys,
Vrindaranya
NrsinghaDas - February 5, 2005 8:06 pm
This is a quote from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura that adresses this subject.
The transcendental meaning of the words cannot be conveyed to the senses of the conditioned soul so long as he does not agree to follow the method of submissive listening to the transcendental sound appearing on the lips of the pure devotee. There is a definite line of succession of the bonafide teachers of the truth. The bonafide teacher should be available sooner or later to the real seeker of the Truth. The bonafide Acharyya is not recognizable by the hypocrites and atheists who do not really want to serve Godhead. So long therefore, as the bonafide teacher does not manifest his appearance to the pure cognitive essence of the seeker of the Absolute Truth it is necessary for the candidate for spiritual enlightenment to concentrate on self-examination to be able to avoid harboring any lurking traces of insincerity. The words of the sadhu are also available, by his causeless mercy, for bearing the efforts of such candidates, for finding out their own insincerity.
Ultimatly it seems that everything is pointing in the direction of sadhu sanga, from whatever position we are in.
Gauravani Dasa - February 5, 2005 11:49 pm
Thanks you for your explaination Vrndaranya Prabhu. Arcana and I were talking about the same subject the other evening and I appreciated your similar explanations.
She made a statement that we really have no idea how Krishna may reveal His mercy to us. Our expectations, based on material conditioning, may get in the way of our seeing and accepting such mercy.
Brahma Dasa - February 7, 2005 9:09 am
I think it's the DUTY of the guru to not just be able to preach, but to enliven and inspire the disciple NO MATTER where he/she is at in their current spiritual life.
This statement brings to mind some of the mythology that has developed around Srila Prabhupada since his disappearance. People seem to want to believe that everyone he came in touch with was in some way mystically compelled to take up Krishna consciousness. Inwardly, of course anyone who comes in contact with a pure devotee is spiritually benefited. This is stated in the shastra. However, many that came into personal contact with Srila Prabhupada, had discussions with him, attended his lectures etc. went away with no visible attraction to Krsna consciousness at all.
As an idealistic new devotee I had a rude awakening in this regard. In 1972 Visnu Jana Maharaja booked a concert hall in Pittsburgh where he was to perform his transcendental rock opera. Srila Prabhupada was scheduled to speak before the performance. A lot of promotion was done and tickets were sold in all the hippy shops and record stores. Devotees also sold tickets on sankirtana and on the day of the performance gave hundreds of tickets away. I think that over a thousand people attended the rock opera with Srila Prabhupada speaking for about 30 minutes before hand.
In the course of preaching in Pittsburgh I came in contact with a number of people who had attended that event. The majority had come to see a concert, which they either liked or didn’t like. Most discouraging to me at the time was the feedback I received about Srila Prabhupada’s lecture. Some people visited the temple because of the overall presentation, but otherwise I did not meet anyone who said that they were profoundly moved by the lecture. Indeed most people who attended the event said, “The lecture was too long, or they could not understand what the speaker was saying because of his accent, or that they just weren’t interested because they had only come for the music. I was so affected by the apathy or distain that people expressed about the lecture that when I met anyone who said that they had attended the concert I refrained from asking them what they thought of the lecture.
Ultimately, this taught me that both the listener and the speaker must be qualified before the magic of Krsna consciousness will begin to manifest externally. Internally all who heard Srila Prabhupada and the maha-mantra at that event were mystically touched by it; but it may take lifetimes for those attendees to realize the transcendental effects of that day. The same can be said about those who bought books. Transcendental time bombs….Prabhupada used to call them.
The point I’m trying to make is that Srila Prabhupada was empowered by Krsna to spread his message, but even so--“The bonafide Acharya is not recognizable by the hypocrites and atheists who do not really want to serve Godhead. “Wanting to serve Godhead” requires some underlying eligibility (sukriti). Thus Srila Prabhupada used to say that his Guru Maharaja had sent all of us to help him in his mission. The guru's responsibility is to teach those that want to learn, yet in time, his mere presence, creates that desire. This is the mercy of bhakti.
Brahma
Narada-kunda Dasi - February 7, 2005 4:22 pm
The guru's responsibility is to teach those that want to learn, yet in time, his mere presence, creates that desire. This is the mercy of bhakti.
How nicely put and so true...
Jason - February 8, 2005 1:05 am
I appreciate all the responses. I understand that it's not beneficial for the disciple to have unrealistic expectations of the spiritual master, and when I mentioned the "duty" of the guru, I did mean in a general way. How can I continue to develop a relationship with a spiritual teacher who may not be able to accept that I'm in a particular situation with a particular set of circumstances that will have an impact on the service I can do and subsequently make some tangible, spiritual advancement?
How to delineate between feelings I may have for the person I thought I would take initiation from and spiritual feelings that this is the person who I feel confident in serving (knowing that the relationship will be reciporocal).
What I'm trying to figure out is this: I understand that I have responsibilities as a person who would like to take initiation and continue to progress in Krsna consciousness. Is it the responsibility of the spiritual master to be considerate of the student's particular circumstances, or is it the responsibility of the devotee to be able to do whatever the spiritual master decides is best?
thanks for your comments,
Jason
Gauravani Dasa - February 8, 2005 1:42 am
Guru Maharaja and I just had a conversation in which he stated that a person should be able to stand on his own two feet and make his own decisions that are favorable to his advancement in Krishna consciousness. Your Guru may advise you in a particular way, relative to your circumstances, but it is ultimately up to you to make the decisions and live with them. We should be mature and responsible enough to avoid allowing others to make decisions for us, although good advice goes a long way in helping us make these decisions.
I used to think that once I accepted a spiritual master, then my autonomy would dissapear. I realized that this is not the case, that Krishna consciousness means to use our free will in such a way that our Krishna consciousness will increase. For me this means a lot of honesty and self-analysis that will allow me to make favorable decisions and also be honest with my Gurudeva about myself.
I am certainly not expert in this area, so I would humbly advise you seek the advice of others as well.
Narada-kunda Dasi - February 8, 2005 6:24 pm
How can I continue to develop a relationship with a spiritual teacher who may not be able to accept that I'm in a particular situation with a particular set of circumstances that will have an impact on the service I can do and subsequently make some tangible, spiritual advancement?
From what I can gather, it seems the situation you are describing I have also experienced. With the advancement of a devotee, his/her vision becomes deeper and broader, his/her faith stronger. Then Krishna is seen where he was not seen before. Ultimately he is seen everywhere.
The guru we approach is on a certain level. If he cannot help us see Krishna in our lives and take us from there, but instead denies his presence because our settings are not what he can relate to from his own experience, he is weakening our inner feeling of being connected with the Supersoul, discouraging us and making us dependent on externals. This is the exact opposite of what he should be doing, but is unfortunately quite prevalent in some circles.
In other words, vairagya or denial should not overshadow bhakti or devotional service. Its predominance is a symptom of a jnani. Our principle is yukta-vairagya, accepting our situation as Krishna's mercy. Then there can be talk of progress.
Bhaktisiddhanta says everyone is at all times given the best guidance possible by their best friend. This friend speaks through others sometimes, or sometimes insists on being heard in the heart. Otherwise he manifests as a specific experience. I have no advice to give you. I wrote all this just to let you know that the situation you are in is in some form experienced by everyone on the Path. It's ultimately an opportunity to strengthen our commitment to bhakti by accepting what is favorable to it.
And rejecting what is unfavorable.
According to our realization and desire.
Your sincere inquiries are so pleasing to the heart. Thank you for being so open and honest. When you share your mind with devotees, things tend to clear up quickly...
Jason - February 8, 2005 8:36 pm
Haribol!
I appreciate the kind words from all.
Narada Kunda dasi, you mentioned how it's good to open up with the devotees and talk about things. I agree, but it is sometimes embarrassing. I don't usually "open up" too regularly.
This issue with me is a BIG one because I feel I'm at that crossroads. The prospect of initiation is right around the corner, yet I'm starting to feel uneasy.
Many of you had involvement within ISKCON at some point. You know how when you first came to the temples, they try to get you engaged in some service right away; often times not being sensitive to the fact that you may have other things to do. Sometimes I just feel that they neglect to see that people have lives outside of spiritual life/temple life.
I'm 29, I go to college, I live with my girlfriend, I work for ISKCON Prison MInistry writing to dozens of inmates, I format a quarterly newsletter and still work (managing and doing websales for a record store) full time.
I'm sorry to say, I can't be engaged in service 24-7. I do what I can, and over the last 6-8 months, I've gotton the overwhelming feeling that it's not enough.
Apparently, I should have not gone to school this semester, left my job and girlfriend for a few months and considered a trip to India and maybe studying at Radhadesh in Belgium. How would I have broken a lease, paid my bills, acquired the cash for traveling, convinced my girlfriend that she should come along while I studied Bhakti Sastri in the Belgium temple.....
Come on!
Talk about pressure. Is this realistic? Am I to just up and leave and do it under the assumption that my spiritual master ultimately knows what will "jump start" my "stagnating" Krsna consciousness?
OR....
Do I realize that his expectations of me and my life right now are REALLY out of touch, I'm not a brahmacari, and what I'm doing now is practical.
I've always thought that "slow and steady wins the race"
Sorry for the tone of this post. It's frustrating. This is what I mean when I say that I don't feel that I'm being looked at practically. Can't the relationship between the guru and the disciple be one where we "meet half way" with the understanding that by following the instructions of the spiritual master, I will make advancement over time? He REALLY understands where I'm at and creates a program that is suited properly for me, and in return, I follow his instructions and push forward as time and facility permits (with a degree of consistency). I think that this is more practical. I don't think it's a lazy approach either.
Thanks again....
YS.
Madangopal - February 8, 2005 9:37 pm
I will leave plenty of space for others to comment, but I was just struck by your post and had to give a thought or two. First of all, thank you for "opening up", it is very endearing to a community when people show their vulnerability. Please don't be embarrased.
At the beginning you talk about ISKCON expecting too much of you but then later you indicate quite clearly that it is your guru who is not having realistic expectations of your service.
If this is the case, please listen to the intelligent doubts you display in your posts. They are substantiated by many persons experiences. The guru does not serve you and just let you get away with whatever you want, but he/she must know how to engage you properly. Guru MUST understand your position and as you say, meet you half way in order to engage you in such a way that you will gradually offer all of your heart to Krsna, no matter your situation. That is the guru's expertise, how to inject the bhakti medicine into your life in a way that you can accept it, healing you a little at a time. If guru goes straight for the heart transplant without considering your blood type, you may reject the organ and guru has killed the patient!!
There are multiple ways that a disciple can reject the good guidance of guru out of desire for sense gratification, but I don't see that in your case. I think your sincerity indicates a conflict in this relationship. If you see Tripurari Swami in a siksa guru role I would consult him. I find him to be an expert physician.
Initiation is like a kind of marriage between guru and disciple and if you are having doubts about your spouse before the wedding I would really recommend you consult your well wishers.
Audarya-lila Dasa - February 9, 2005 1:14 am
Dear Jason,
Thank you for sharing. Knowing only what you have shared here publicly it is hard to make an unbiased comment regarding your situation. There is obviously a great deal of history and relationship involved.
One thing I would say to you is that you should never do something that you aren't convinced is the right thing just because of social pressure or institutional conventions.
It sounds, on the surface at least, that your benefactor is trying to get you to divest yourself from your material attachments. For some people this can be a very good thing, for others it will spell disaster.
I used to swim every afternoon at a YMCA in Madison, WI when I was living in the Midwest. I would see one gentleman come regularly for about a month and then I wouldn't see him for several months. It was a pattern with him. I watched him carefully and determined that he was pushing himself too hard and risking injury and mental burn out. I spoke to him about this (we worked out together on occasion with another swimming buddy) and he acknowledged his problem but didn't seem able to make the proper adjustment - so even though he knew it would be better for him to gradually increase the length and intensity of his workouts and when he was particularly fatigued do a light workout - he was unable to put it into practice.
In his case, even though he was introspective enough to understand his problem and have it verified by an independent and knowledgeable observer - he was unable to modify the behavior. Maybe if he had a coach that he trusted he could have overcome this problem - I don't know....
The reason I mention that story is two-fold - 1) each of us has to be a little introspective and learn what is best for us in terms of progressive Krsna consciousness, and 2) each of us needs a good guide who can confirm our insights and adjust our thinking and practice such that our insights and development will deepen and move ahead steadily.
You seem to be very close to committing yourself to this particular spiritual teacher. Given that, I would assume that he knows you fairly well. He must have a reason for asking you to do things you find difficult to do. Have you talked to him directly and voiced your concerns?
If you don't have full faith in this persons ability to guide you in your spiritual life, for whatever reason, you should step back and think very deeply about what your going to do. My nephew is in love and thinking about marriage. He has known his girlfriend for about a year now. He is only 18 years old. He asked me for my opinion about whether or not it was a good idea to marry before college. What I shared with him is that marriage is a lifetime committment and he is very young with little experience (not an easy thing to convince an 18 year old of). I suggested to him that nothing would be lost if they wait until they both complete their educations, yet many things would be gained. Their love and committment to a life together would have the chance to 'stand the test of time'. They would both gain some valuable life experience and move into adulthood and all the responsibilities that go with it. This would give each of them more perspective from which to make such a grave decision. I think he appreciated the advice. What he decides to do wtih it is up to him and his girlfriend.
My own opinion is that you are not ready for initiation. It may be simply because you are not ready or it may be because your guru has yet to made him/herself known to you. Chant and pray and continue to be honest and open.
Bhrigu - February 9, 2005 8:24 am
Dear Jason,
I agree with what Audarya-lila says about speaking about all of this with your guru. From what you write, it does seem that he is asking you to do something impossible, but there might be a sound plan behind it. I know how hard it can be to voice doubts to your spiritual authorities, but do try. Only after speaking openly about this with him will you actually know whether his expectations are unrealistic. If so, you might have to think again about asking him for initiation.
Babhru Das - February 9, 2005 7:38 pm
Jason, I also want to thank you for trusting us with your doubts. I think you may indeed be at a crossroads. It’s not clear from your post whether these expectations were expressed explicitly or implied, by local temple leaders, or by your guru. If Maharaja told you explicitly that he thought this was what you should do, or should have done, this should at least give you some pause. He may, as Audarya-lila and Bhrigu suggest, have a plan, which may or may not take into account your actual situation, by which I mean to include your capacity for “surrender” (for want of a better word, I guess). There’s a verse in the 11th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam in which Krishna tells Uddava that real virtue (sometimes Tripurari Maharaja uses “beauty”) means understanding our real level of advancement and behaving accordingly, being steady in a position for which we are actually qualified. Behaving otherwise, Krishna says, is impious. It seems to me that part of a guru’s duty to a disciple is to understand where the disciple actually is situated and move him or her steadily from that position toward the goal. Anyway, I’d suggest asking him to help you understand what the plan may be and submit any doubts you have to him. I agree that initiation is at least somewhat analogous with marriage, and I agree with the advice to step back for a moment until your doubts have been cleared. It’s probably better to postpone the wedding than to become a divorce statistic.
At the same time, we should also be eager for opportunities to increase our surrender, and our efforts should be a little beyond what’s “comfortable.” When we exercise, we get the best results when we push ourselves a bit each time (but not so much that we injure ourselves and can’t work out for a month). You seem introspective enough to have a clear idea where you are, but we (and I am addressing myself here, too) should try not to hold back. That also becomes an impediment to our progress.
I would hope that your guru and the local leaders would show some appreciation for the wonderful service you already do, and their encouragement to do more should build on that, not dismiss it as inadequate.
Jason - February 10, 2005 6:30 am
Haribol!
Thanks again for the responses. I agree with most of you on all levels.
Audarya-Lila das, you mentioned the need to "be a little introspective" about the situation. I agree. You mentioned not jumping into anything and I agree with that too. The story about your swimming buddy was nice. There have been times, before I came to SF, when I would be on a "marathon" of various services, and then burn out and "disappear" for a while. I managed to get to a point where I was consistent with service, reading, rounds, etc. and I brought that program with me when I came to the west coast. In seperation from Maharaja (and the devotees I had come to know in Chicago), I realized that it would take a stronger level of commitment to maintain the same steadiness that I had before I came here. I sought out the association of devotees in San Jose and "upped" my service with the IPM a little bit.
Shortly before I came to SF, I started to have some serious doubts about things (much of it in regards to how the devotees I had been associating with viewed certain social and philosophical issues). I thought that if I just stuck with my sadhana and did what Maharaja suggested, things would be fine. I neglected talking with him about my concerns. My concerns escalated (probably as a result of not tackling the problem up front, though there were other things that came up too).
Maybe I was being stupid....so, I decided to make arrangements for Maharaja to visit. This way I could have the association again and perhaps talk about some things. I had a great time and it was nice to be able to be close with him again, but I realized that the WAY I felt, wasn't the same. He gave a class one night about the responsibility of the disciple and I knew it was directed at me to some degree. I appreciated the class. He mentioned that the time before initiation is a time when the guru can watch the student AND at the same time, the student can monitor the guru. He referred to it as a "observation period". That really made me think.
I've talked with my "spiritual parents", a married couple in VA. (Srila Prabhupada disciples), who have always been REALLY cool and supportive; always there to listen and give some advise. They know Maharaja and were a little suprised.
I know that he is an advanced devotee with pure qualities. He has taught me a lot and I will always have that relationship with him. I'm just feeling that perhaps he's not the person I feel comfortable taking diksa from....siksa? Sure.
There's is the possibility that his ideal "plan" for me would have had some benefits, but I guess what it boils down to is that I'm not willing to do that right now. Is that immature? Selfish? I don't know? Maybe.
After 10 years of being around devotees, listening to spiritual masters, and learning little by little, I guess it still isn't enough. One reason is the fact that after one trip to Santa Rosa to hear Tripurari Maharaja give class, I felt like it was my first time ever hearing Bhagavad-Gita. I'm reading his Bhagavad-Gita and feeling like I've "missed the point" for the last many years.
Audarya-Lila is right! How could I be ready?
What's interesting is that the same fear that I felt as a young kid at Christian church with a desire to understand other religions.....I'm just now getting over the "spooky feelings" that I've had about visiting devotees from outside of ISKCON. I've been interested and attracted for a little while about getting to hear Tripurari Maharaja in person, and have only now taken steps to do so. I feel like a kid sometimes. What's more, I feel like I've been in a situation/community that has kept me from following my real desire. It's stifling sometimes. Confusing, often.
YS,
Jason
Jason - February 10, 2005 6:31 pm
Haribol!
So, last night I was reading Tripurari Maharaja's Bhagavad-Gita, and wouldn't you know that the purports to the verses that I read were very relevant to my situation. It was in 2.39:
In the previous verse(s), Krsna has been outlining the path that Arjuna should take. Maharaja continued to explain that the yoga that Krsna outlined for him was defined more as selflessness and sacrifice, b/c He knows that without a purified heart, Arjuna won't be able to assimilate the knowledge of the self.
Maharaja describes it as "niskama-karma-yoga" and that eventually, knowledge will manifest via selfless action (yoga as it's defined here).
Relevence: Perhaps I'm still to materially attached to realize that what anyone presents to me as a way to "jumpstart" my Krsna consciousness won't take root. Best to take the advice of Krsna in this verse....eventually it will lead to bhakti.
Interestingly, in verse 40, after explaining the "twofold glory of bhakti", Maharaja explains that bhakti yoga, even if improperly performed, produces positive results.
In verse 41, the "nistha" stage is described. I can relate in the sense that I try to hear regularly and do some service for the devotees. However, it's also pointed out that the devotees intelligence must be "fixed". That's the clincher, huh?
The relevance to my situation is really evident in Maharaja's purport where he elaborates on how Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur defines the stage of nistha.....he does so in two ways:
1. Fixed on the advise of the guru on how to execute bhakti (vyavasayatmika buddhi)
2. Equates attaining the grace of the guru with adherence to the guru's outlined practices for the student.
Hmmmmmmm.......
How do these two factors pertain to my situation particularly.....yep, lots of work to be done!
Amazing how Krsna will point you to verses just when you need them.
YS,
Jason
Citta Hari Dasa - February 13, 2005 6:08 pm
In other words, vairagya or denial should not overshadow bhakti or devotional service. Its predominance is a symptom of a jnani. Our principle is yukta-vairagya, accepting our situation as Krishna's mercy. Then there can be talk of progress.
I'd like to clarify a couple of points about vairagya and yukta-vairagya. The first is that vairagya and denial are very different things. Vairagya means detachment (vi + raga), and arises from knowledge. Denial is when a person does not want to look at a situation for what it is, which arises from ignorance. The person who has detachment does not deny the objects of the senses, he or she ceases to interact with them due to being uninterested in them.
The second point is about yukta-vairagya. The definition of it given by Rupa Goswami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.225) is: "When someone who is detached from worldly objects properly engages them in relation to Krsna, this is called yukta-vairagya. "
In explaining this Guru Maharaja says:
"The idea here is that monists see no ultimate value in things related to Krsna, thinking them to be material. Therefore they sometimes preach against using the tulasi mala, serving the Deity, etc., seeing these as things that need to be ultimately transcended. However, they are mistaken. In contrast to yukta-vairagya, Rupa Goswami calls such renunciation phalgu-vairagya, false renunciation (1.2.226). For example, should a monist reject food offered to the Deity (prasadam) thinking it to be ordinary food, his or her renunciation is false. This is the example cited by Sri Jiva Goswami."
Narada-kunda Dasi - February 16, 2005 11:45 am
Thanks, Citta-hari. Beautiful explanation. To me, "denial" in the context I had written it in previously meant precisely the denial of a situation being related to Krishna. This is anyway the underlying nature of every denial. I was hoping it would be clear from the previous paragraph(s) as I had no facility to elaborate further at the time.
Bhaktisiddhanta says how a devotee sees Krishna everywhere, while one averse to him denies his presence in everything.
He also says how a devotee is right even if he misquotes, while a nondevotee is "always and necessarily wrong" despite quoting exactly from the shastra.
I have no idea of how I'm coming across, so I really appreciate feedback. The stuff I write is from my personal experience, which I usually manage to link up to the right scriptural phrases, but sometimes it may not be precise. I see and feel the truths I want to share, yet the vaikhari stage -- spoken words -- apparently needs some oiling...
Yet what keeps inspiring me to write, despite my imperfections, is a desire to give my support and understanding to others. As long as I can sincerely exchange these primal energies, which use words only as a coating, with others, there is satisfaction on all (including Krishna's) sides and the real purpose is fulfilled...
To me this is real life. Discovering this magic world more and more, I could never go back to the world of intellectual studies. I've done my time there. 