Tattva-viveka

Bhagavad Gita, ch. 14

Krsangi Dasi - March 13, 2005 9:14 pm

Dear devotees

Astounding revelations were made at our 14th Bhagavad Gita evening as Bhrigu, Mikko, Jayanta Krishna, Sulochana, Kamalaksa and I discussed the three modes of nature. Read on to find out all about our secret fantasies of name, fame and glory.

Bhagavar Gita, chapter 14: Yoga of distinguishing the three modes of nature

In this chapter Krishna describes the three modes of material nature, and how they can be transcended by devotion to him. In text 14.5. the names of the different modes are mentioned for the first time, and in his purport Guru Maharaja gives a thorough explanation of them as well as compares them to some well-known Western theories.

Freud taught that a person should find a balance between Eros (roughly analogous to rajas) and Thanatos (tamas) to attain a peaceful state of mind, which resembles sattva. In the same way the ideal of Taoism is a balance of yin (rajas) and yang (tamas), so Gita's threefold concept of sattva, rajas and tamas actually corresponds quite well with these more well-known systems.

Reading about the three gunas we started trying to analyze ourselves and our own position. I remembered Guru Maharaja saying at a class that the essence of rajas is that you want to "be somebody". That pretty much sums up the state of my mind: I want to be well-known and respected, to be able to influence people. Bhrigu confessed that he remembers seeing photos of pyramids as a child and thinking that he would also like to be somehow remembered after his death. I admitted that sattva doesn't even really sound that tempting to me, all that peacefulness seems a bit boring...

Sulochana said that the thought of being some kind of a celebrity sounds terrible to her, she loves the fact that no one knows who she is. We talked quite a bit about dealing with the urge to be recognized materially, and whether it should be repressed or nourished. I've been wondering if I should get more involved in politics or not (I'm in the city council at the moment). On the other hand it's really time-consuming and ultimately pointless, but then again it's unlikely that I'd use all my spare time in spiritual pursuits even if I had more of it, and I believe that quitting politics now would leave me wondering if it could've turned into something really great. We all agreed that giving up something you really love without enough real taste for spiritual life will probably end up in time spent on something equally material. Rajas can degenerate into tamas if it's unnaturally suppressed.

Kamalaksa told us that when he first came in touch with Krishna consciousness he couldn't understand the concept of someone being bound to the material world by sattva. How could someone be too happy and balanced? But he said that at he moment he feels like this is his biggest problem in spiritual life: he's too satisfied in his present situation. He said that spiritual life also seems nice, but he has no great need to change anything in his life, no sense of urgency. This is quite hard for me to grasp as I'm constantly longing for something that I don't have but I guess this is the essential difference between sattva and rajas.

Bhrigu pointed out that even though I claim to be in pure rajas, always coming up with new projects that in the end just stress me out enormously, no one usually is completely controlled by one guna alone. All the three gunas are present in most of us, and alternately predominate our behavior. A person in pure rajas would only care about things that would make him or her more powerful and famous, so the fact that I even attend a Gita meeting that won't help me in my material career in any way shows that there's something more that makes me tick than just rajas.

I wondered if it's possible to become Krishna conscious directly from a situation where rajas is predominant, or if you have to attain sattva first. We came to the conclusion that if you can direct the energy of a rajasic personality to a Krishna conscious project there's no need to concentrate on becoming sattvic. A good example of this is how Prabhupada always tried to somehow engage everyone he met in Krishna's service regardless of heir background.

In text 14.14 it is said that when a person dies under the influence of sattva he is reborn in the heavenly planets. Text 14.15 tells that dying in rajas one is reborn as a human. This made me wonder if it actually would be better to die in rajas than in sattva as, at least the way I've understood it, the human form is the best material situation for the jiva to become Krishna conscious in. I guess we should remember that sattva isn't our absolute goal in life, but Krishna.

At the end of chapter 14 Krishna instructs Arjuna on transcending the gunas by pure devotion. He also gives a lengthy list of symptoms that a pure devotee can be recognized by. We wondered how we would react if a saint like the ones described here lived among us today, openly showing that a lump of earth and a piece of gold were equal to him. Most really advanced devotees hide their emotions for Krishna in order to act as a guide for the less advanced, but if we met a holy person living naked in the woods, or in an outhouse, we probably would dismiss him as a madman. The thought of such complete devotion is quite scary for us living in our neat homes, properly insulated to keep the Finnish winter outside.

Shyam Gopal Das - March 14, 2005 6:34 am

Krsangi, I thought you are already well-known and famous in Finland?

The way the gunas have been explained to me is that you can see them as the three primary colors, and that the gunas just like them can be mixed in all sort of ways to create new combinations.

Krsangi Dasi - March 14, 2005 12:59 pm

Well, some people know me here but Finland's a small country. And I'm not a proper celebrity like Paris Hilton or something, not even here. Plus I don't think I'd even like to be like her...

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - March 15, 2005 4:03 am

Kamalaksa told us that when he first came in touch with Krishna consciousness he couldn't understand the concept of someone being bound to the material world by sattva.

SB 7.15.43-44

In the conditioned stage, one's conceptions of life are sometimes polluted by passion and ignorance, which are exhibited by attachment, hostility, greed, lamentation, illusion, fear, madness, false prestige, insults, fault-finding, deception, envy, intolerance, passion, bewilderment, hunger and sleep. All of these are enemies. Sometimes one's conceptions are also polluted by goodness.

SB 7.15.25

One must conquer the modes of passion and ignorance by developing the mode of goodness, and then one must become detached from the mode of goodness by promoting oneself to the platform of suddha-sattva. All this can be automatically done if one engages in the service of the spiritual master with faith and devotion. In this way one can conquer the influence of the modes of nature.

Swami - April 1, 2005 3:06 pm

I wondered if it's possible to become Krishna conscious directly from a situation where rajas is predominant, or if you have to attain sattva first.

This question ties into the nistha thread, nasta prayesu abhadresu. Abhadra (inauspiciousness) that is almost completely removed at the stage of nistha is described in the following verse as the influences of raja and tamas, underscored as kama (lust) and greed (lobha), etc (ca). This, the verse says, brings one to goodness, sthitam sattve prasidati, indicating that nishta involves being primarily situated in sattva. So this seems to be the general course to transcendence—through sattva. Can anyone supply any other quoutes supporting the idea that transcendence is attained via sattva guna? Can anyone supply quotes or examples contradicting this idea?

NrsinghaDas - April 1, 2005 3:50 pm

Can anyone supply any other quoutes supporting the idea that transcendence is attained via sattva guna?

I think if one is a sadhana siddha passing through sattva guna is inevitable.

Can anyone supply quotes or examples contradicting this idea?

On the other hand, wich is the rare occasion that one becomes a krpa-siddha, like Jagai and Madai, it appears that they went from tama guna to transcendence in one clean swoop.

Shyam Gopal Das - April 1, 2005 4:45 pm

I just glanced through Kundali dasa's The Nectar of Discrimination and he quotes the following verses in support of the mode of goodness:

"SB 1.2.17: Sri Krishna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted.

SB 1.2.18: By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.

SB 1.2.19: As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy.

SB 1.2.20: Thus established in the mode of unalloyed goodness, the man whose mind has been enlivened by contact with devotional service to the Lord gains positive scientific knowledge of the Personality of Godhead in the stage of liberation from all material association.

SB 1.2.21: Thus the knot in the heart is pierced, and all misgivings are cut to pieces. The chain of fruitive actions is terminated when one sees the self as master."

I don't have enough time to comment now, but liked to add the above.

EDIT: I'm a bad reader as I just saw Guru Maharaj's already used these verses.

Madangopal - April 1, 2005 5:05 pm

Can anyone supply any other quoutes supporting the idea that transcendence is attained via sattva guna? Can anyone supply quotes or examples contradicting this idea?

Well, there is the analogy of the airport. The airport is like the mode of goodness and when you get on the plane and fly, that is transcendence. You can't get on a plane expecting to transcend if you haven't even gone to where the plane is parked - the airport. So the mode of goodness is the springboard to suddha-sattva, pure goodness.

Quotes from Srila Prabhupada:

If in all one's actrivities he strictly adheres to the mode of goodness, he will certainly develop his dormant Krsna Consciousness and ultimately become a pure devotee of Lord Krsna. (C.C. Antya 3.222 purport)

and an argument in the negative:

Unless one comes to the platform of sattva-guna, there is no question of perfection. (lecture, 1971, Gorakhpur)

This idea of progressing through sattva guna is embedded in the Vaishnava philosophy. The idea of the brahmanas (in quality, not birth) being the highest material designation, qualified for liberation, etc. and then the Vaishnava tops even the brahmana. Brahmana's represent the sattva guna and the vaishnava is transcendent.

Liberation is a state of pure goodness, but beyond that is Vaikuntha. Lower planets moving up to higher and then transcendental. Lower species of life up to higher, human, demigods (predominantly in goodness). In this way every aspect of the material existence is described in progression, with sattva guna at the top, closest to transcendence.

I try to think of examples contradicting the idea but they fall short. I thought of Mrgrari the hunter. Did the mercy of Narada launch him from his tamasic life to transcendence? Not really... He was instructed by Narada to regulate (sattva) his killing of animals and it appears that his behavior coupled with spiritual activities led him to transcendence. On the way, he was sweeping ants out of his way so as not to step on them - nonviolence (sattva guna).

The only way I can imagine that someone would not have to go through sattva guna to reach transcendence is if they received extraordinary mercy of the devotee, krpa-siddha. Still, it seems that many times this mercy is in giving a sattvik regimen AND transcendental activity like Narada above or Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada's 4 reg's are sattvika regimen coupled with transcendent action - chanting the holy names.

Swami - April 1, 2005 5:18 pm

Sriman Mahaprabhu took wild animals (tama guna) directly to transcendence. Certainly this is an example of krpa siddha. But does the course of sadhana siddhi require that one take birth as a brahmana in varnansrama before attaining prema?

Madangopal - April 1, 2005 5:54 pm

What is an example of krpa siddha amongst humans that does not include sattvika activity? As I think of examples I keep seeing the cultivation of sattva in addition to the krpa.

Another example I thought of was the prostitute and Haridasa Thakur. She did sattvika activities in conjunction with sadhana. She gave in charity, she shaved and wore simple clothes, lived outdoors. Her worship of tulsi and chanting of the holy name were her sadhana.

Sadhana siddhi certainly does not require high birth. These examples of Mrgrari, this prostitute, so much our Saraswata lineage demonstrate this is not the case.

But I'm wondering does transcendence require high (sattvika) activity, quality?

NrsinghaDas - April 1, 2005 7:05 pm

What is an example of krpa siddha amongst humans that does not include sattvika activity? As I think of examples I keep seeing the cultivation of sattva in addition to the krpa.

I dont know the pastime so well, but I think Jugai and Mudai fall in that category. If I remember correctly their only sadhana was a brief state of natural repentance, and being embraced by Mahaprabhu.

But I'm wondering does transcendence require high (sattvika) activity, quality?

Iam not sure exactly what this means. But I if I get the gist, you are reffering to the adhikara necessary for the sadhaka to pass from sadhana to transcendence. If that is what your asking, I think that it boils down to two things, sincere endevour and the mercy of those in a higher position.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 1, 2005 9:26 pm

Can anyone supply quotes or examples contradicting this idea (transcendence is attained via sattva guna)?

History of the life of Ajamila (SB 6.1.21) comes to mind, fallen brahmana obviously was not sattvic at the moment of his death, none the less liberated.

EDIT: Ooops, he got his lifetime extended for a short while and then liberated, sorry I forgot. So he actually could have been sattvic during his secong death.

Guru-nistha Das - April 2, 2005 1:11 am

Here's my shot:

In the purport to SB 1.2.20 Srila Prabhupada says:

"...And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification..."

Another one:

SB 1.2.24: Firewood is a transformation of earth, but smoke is better than the raw wood. And fire is still better, for by fire we can derive the benefits of superior knowledge [through Vedic sacrifices]. Similarly, passion [rajas] is better than ignorance [tamas], but goodness [sattva] is best because by goodness one can come to realize the Absolute Truth.

In the purport Srila Prabhupada says:

"...It is further comprehended herein that one has to rise to the platform of the mode of goodness (sattva) so that one can be eligible for the devotional service of the Lord..."

When I was going through the fourteenth chapter of Guru Maharaja's Gita commentary, I bumped into an interesting thing that I can't explain to myself and would like to get some clarification on:

Guru Maharaja mentions in more than one purport that although sattva is helpful for spiritual life, it nonetheless has a binding effect too. In the purport to text 6 he writes "However, in spite of sattva's virtue, it is nonetheless binding for the soul. It too must be transcended, for it produces attachment to the mental modifications that cause knowledge and happiness to manifest".

But in the purport to Text 11 he writes "Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says that the word uta indicates that the happiness of sattva is generated by the soul."

My question is, if the happiness of sattva is coming from the soul, why should we not be attached to it?

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 2, 2005 2:35 am

From what I understand, sattva-guna being by definition mode of material nature is just that -- material. Attachment to matter or contact with it is bad: Action -> Reaction -> Samsara. One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman (Bg. 14.26) -- spiritual level.

Guru-nistha Das - April 2, 2005 3:58 am

Yes, but that's what I don't understand: if sattva is material, how can the happiness of sattva be generated by the soul? Because if it's generated by the soul, how can it be material?

Swami - April 2, 2005 4:02 am

When I was going through the fourteenth chapter of Guru Maharaja's Gita commentary, I bumped into an interesting thing that I can't explain to myself and would like to get some clarification on:

Guru Maharaja mentions in more than one purport that although sattva is helpful for spiritual life, it nonetheless has a binding effect too. In the purport to text 6 he writes "However, in spite of sattva's virtue, it is nonetheless binding for the soul. It too must be transcended, for it produces attachment to the mental modifications that cause knowledge and happiness to manifest".

But in the purport to Text 11 he writes "Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says that the word uta indicates that the happiness of sattva is generated by the soul."

My question is, if the happiness of sattva is coming from the soul, why should we not be attached to it?

The conditioning of sattva guna is the ego of "I am happy," I am knowledgable" that results from the illumination that takes place in sattva. This illumination comes from the mind and intellect and sheds light on the fact that one is a soul. However, it is not sufficient to have clear theoretical knowledge of the soul, one must realize the soul. In sattva one is free from base desires and thus develops a sense of self satisfaction, sthitam sattve prasidati. By engaging in bhakti yoga in sattva guna, one comes to actual self realization.

Sri Visvanahta Cakravati does say that the happiness of sattva comes from the soul (atma). No one else says anything like this. I took it to mean he was saying that sattva's happiness is a result of the soul emerging from the darkness of rajas and tamas, causing illumination in the sky of the mind/intelllect just as the rising sun at dawn causes illuminationin the sky before it actually rises in full view. However, the word atma could also be translated as "self" rather than "soul," perhaps refering to a sense of material self satisfaction and contentment, and this seems to fit better with other commentaries.

It is good to see that you are reading so thoroughly!

Swami - April 2, 2005 5:00 am

Bhagavatam 11.25.29 says sattvikam sukham atmottham, "The happiness of sattva arises from the atma." This is opposed to the happiness of rajas said to arise from "objects," presumably the aquisition of sense objects, and the happiness of tamas that arises from delusion. Then Sri Krsna says that happiness derived from himself is transcendental (nirguna). So Visvantha Cakravarti seems to have drawn his conclusion from here, although he does not mention it.

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 2, 2005 7:24 am

. Can anyone supply any other quoutes supporting the idea that transcendence is attained via sattva guna?

Can anyone supply quotes or examples contradicting this idea?

here is one as to satva

BG lectures Hyderabad, November 25, 1972

Prabhupäda: When you become Vaiñëava, the brahminism is already included. General process is, unless one does not come to the sattva-guëa platform, he cannot understand what is Kåñëa consciousness. That is the general rule. But this Kåñëa, devotional service, Kåñëa consciousness movement, is so nice that simply by hearing about Kåñëa, you come to immediately to the brahminical platform. Nañöa-präyeñu abhadreñu nityaà bhägavata-sevayä [sB 1.2.18]. Abhadra. Abhadra means these three qualities of material nature. Even brahminical qualities. The çüdra quality, the vaiçya quality, or the kñatriya quality, or even brähmaëa quality. They are all abhadras. Because in brähmaëa quality, again the same identification comes. “Oh, I am brähmaëa. Nobody can become brähmaëa without birth. I am great. I am brähmaëa.” This false prestige comes. So he becomes bound up. Even in brahminical qualities. But when he comes to the spiritual platform, actually, as Caitanya Mahäprabhu said, “I am not brähmaëa, I am not sannyäsé, I am not gåhastha, I am not brahmacäré,” Not, not, not...These eight principles, varëäçrama, He denies. Then what You are? Gopé-bhartuù pada-kamalayor däsa-däsänudäsaù. “I am the servant of the servant of the servant of Kåñëa.” This is self realization.

And this may be one that by association we are raised to sattva but yet still have some bad qualities.

BG 7.1 San Diego July, 1972Prabhupäda: This is the process. By hearing, you become pious. Those who are hearing in this meeting, even they cannot understand the words which we are discussing, he’s, he’s becoming purer. He’s becoming... Just like one becomes purer by acting piously. So simply hearing, if one cannot understand the whole thing, he becomes pious. Puëya-çravaëa-kértanaù [sB 1.2.17]. One who is speaking Kåñëa’s words, and one who is hearing Kåñëa’s..., both of them are becoming purified.

So if we hear daily, regularly, nityam, nityaà bhägavata-sevayä, then... Nañöa-präyeñv abhadreñu nityaà bhägavata-sevayä [sB 1.2.18]. If you hear daily... Just like we are holding class daily in the morning. And bhägavata-sevayä. Sevayä means service. To make the place nicely cleansed so that devotees will sit down and Çrémad-Bhägavatam, Bhagavad-gétä will be discussed, this is called bhägavata-sevä, serving the Bhägavata. Nityaà bhägavata-sevayä... Nañöa-präyeñv abhadreñu. The whole difficulty is that our heart is covered with so many dirty things. So by this process, this bhägavata-sevayä, the dirty things will be cleansed. Not that exactly all cleansed. Even a little portion is cleansed, nañöa-präyeñu, not fully cleansed, präyeñu, almost, then immediately, bhagavaty uttama-çloke bhaktir bhavati naiñöhiké, immediately you come to the platform of bhakti-yoga. Little cleansed. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya träyate mahato bhayät. Not that... Therefore, we sometimes see that one who has taken to Kåñëa consciousness, still, he is committing something wrong. But that is not very, that is not a case of discouragement. You stick to this principle. Kñipraà bhavati dharmätmä. Api cet su-duräcäraù. We should not willingly do anything wrong. But due to our past habit, if we do something wrong, that we should not be discouraged, But stick to the principle, then gradually you’ll be cleansed. Nañöa-präyeñu abhadreñu. Präyeñu means almost cleansed, not completely clean. So we don’t claim that we have become liberated from all dirty things. There are so many dirty things still. But little clearance will help us to become a devotee of the Lord.

nañöa-präyeñv abhadreñu

nityaà bhägavata-sevayä

bhagavaty uttama-çloke

bhaktir bhavati naiñöhiké

[sB 1.2.18]

Naiñöhiké. This is the stage of attachment to Kåñëa. Mayy äsakta-manäù. There are different stages. So this niñöhä, firm faith. First of all, loose faith. Then, as we execute devotional service, the faith becomes firmer, firmer, firmer. And when it comes to firm, “Yes, Kåñëa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I am His eternal servant,” this is firm faith. Without any deviation. Bhaktir bhavati naiñöhiké.

tadä rajas-tamo-bhäväù

käma-lobhädayaç ca ye

ceta etair anäviddhaà

sthitaà sattve prasédati

[sB 1.2.19]

Sthitaà sattve prasédati. Sattva-guëa, when goodness, the modes of goodness... So progress in devotional service means one is becoming perfect. Because he is perfect, everyone is perfect, but he’s covered with some dirty thing. Just like gold is covered with some dirty earth. But if you wash the gold, or, by chemical process, if you cleanse, then real gold will come out. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Therefore Godly qualities are there, in every one of us. It is simply covered by these material dirty things. This will be cleansed by this hearing process. The more you hear, the more it becomes cleansed, the more you become fixed up in devotional service. Then more you give up your other nonsense habits. Käma and lobha. Other nonsense habits, they are based on two things: lust and greediness. Käma-lobha. Lust and greediness. These are two dirty things. So tadä rajas-tamo-bhäväù käma-lobhädayaç ca ye. Ceta. Your heart will be cleansed of these lusty things and greediness. Then you come to the pure modes of goodness. And as soon as you come to the pure platform of goodness... Tadä rajas-tamo-bhäväù käma-lobhädayaç ca ye ceta etair anäviddham. Then your heart will not be pierced by these nonsense two, rajo-guëa and tamo-guëa. You’ll be situated in sattva-guëa. Sthitaà sattve...

tadä rajas-tamo-bhäväù

käma-lobhädayaç ca ye

ceta etair anäviddhaà

sthitaà sattve prasédati

[sB 1.2.19]

Then you’ll see everything clearly and be satisfied. “Oh, this is my position.”

So this is the process of the more you become purified, the more you’ll be advanced in Kåñëa consciousness. And your advancement in Kåñëa consciousness will be tested, how you are developing good qualities. Officially I’m Kåñëa conscious yogi, but I am still addicted to so many nonsense habits—that means you are not advancing. That is the test. Yasyästi bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanä sarvair guëais tatra samäsate suräù. He hasn’t got to learn how to become good. Simply by executing this devotional service, he’ll be all good. That is the test.

Thank you very much. (end)

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 2, 2005 7:49 am

Sriman Mahaprabhu took wild animals (tama guna) directly to transcendence. Certainly this is an example of krpa siddha. But does the course of sadhana siddhi require that one take birth as a brahmana in varnansrama before attaining prema?

I would not think so.

Narada Muni may be an example. SB 7.10.13

"There are two classes of devotees—the sädhana-siddha and the nitya-siddha. Prahläda Mahäräja is a mixed siddha; that is, he is perfect partly because of executing devotional service and partly because of eternal perfection. Thus he is compared to such devotees as Närada. Formerly, Närada Muni was the son of a maidservant, and therefore in his next birth he attained perfection (sädhana-siddhi) because of having executed devotional service. Yet he is also a nitya-siddha because he never forgets the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Here it shows that ordinary human beings by devotional service may attain sadhana siddhi.

SB 10.8.48

"Their personalities are expansions of Kåñëa’s personal body; they are not ordinary living beings. Mahäräja Parékñit knew this, but he was curious to know from Çukadeva Gosvämé whether it is possible for an ordinary human being to come to this stage by sädhana-siddhi. There are two kinds of perfection—nitya-siddhi and sädhana-siddhi. A nitya-siddha is one who is eternally Kåñëa’s associate, an expansion of Kåñëa’s personal body, whereas a sädhana-siddha is an ordinary human being who, by executing pious activities and following regulative principles of devotional service, also comes to that stage."

By the mercy and association with the pure devotee it looks as though we may be elevated.

SB 10 . 9.21

"if those engaged in sädhana-siddhi follow in the footsteps of Kåñëa’s nitya-siddha associates, such sädhana-siddhas also can easily attain Kåñëa without difficulty."

Here it it shows that just by doing 1 of the 9 process of devotional service perfection is attained.

Madhya 22.135

eka aìge—by one portion; siddhi—perfection; päila—achieved; bahu—many; bhakta-gaëa—devotees; ambaréña-ädi—King Ambaréña Mahäräja and others; bhaktera—of devotees; bahu aìga-sädhana—execution of many processes of devotional service.

TRANSLATION

“There are many devotees who execute only one of the nine processes of devotional service. Nonetheless, they get ultimate success. Devotees like Mahäräja Ambaréña execute all nine items, and they also get ultimate success."

Swami - April 2, 2005 3:34 pm

Sattva, being clear like a crystal, is said to be capable of “catching the reflection of consciousness” and is thus a revealer. The illumination resulting from sattva reveals the nature of the world. Thus when the Gita says that one in sattva is one whose bodily gates (the senses) are illumined, it means that one in sattva is illumined as to the nature of sense indulgence and thus forgoes it. One in sattva sees the world as it really is, but has yet to fully realize oneself, although one in sattva is said to have a clear comprehension of the self resulting from removal of the perception of that which is not the self generated in tamas and rajas. Higher states of sattva bring with it the ability to control the mind and senses and the condition of desirelessness.

So it should be clear from the discussion that one passes through sattva into transcendence. However, this can be done directly through Vaisnava diksa and subsequent sadhana. It is not that one must first take birth as a brahmana. Just as bell metal can be converted into gold by a certain process process, so too it is said that one who is not a brahmana by birth of quality can nonetheless attain sattva guna and much more by Vaisanva diksa. Thus one who takes Vasisnava diksa seriously will pass beyond the lower influences of rajas and tamas into sattva and from there into transcendence.

It is also clear form the discussion that it is possible to go directly to transcendence (nirguna) by special mercy of Bhagavan.

Swami - April 2, 2005 3:38 pm

Krsangi has brought up annother question, and apparent contradiction. It is said that one who dies in sattva attains heaven, whereas one who dies in rajas reurns to human society. However, elsewhere it is also said that human society is the best palce from which to attain transcendence (see SB 5th canto). Let's see if we can resolve this apparent contradiction.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 2, 2005 5:00 pm

Complete devotion to the object of love is characteristic only of human life form thus reason for Krsna nara-lila. Death in pure sattva which will warrant liberation, is extremely rare, because of that death in mixed mode (ie. sattva 90%, rajas 9% and tamas 1%) will give you a birth in demigod body on heavenly planet. Birth as demigod will bring set of rules which will prohibit "fallen" condition (fallen in love, disregard to dharma, etc.) thus will prohibit behavior such as gopis running away from home, etc. Because total and complete surrender and devotion (such as in rasa-lila) is a paramount of the relationship between jiva and Godhead and more easily reachable from human society not demigod platform it is said that is the best palce from which to attain transcendence is human form, though attainment of transcendence is a side effect, not a goal.

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 2, 2005 6:32 pm

Krsangi has brought up annother question, and apparent contradiction. It is said that one who dies in sattva attains heaven, whereas one who dies in rajas reurns to human society. However, elsewhere it is also said that human society is the best palce from which to attain transcendence (see SB 5th canto). Let's see if we can resolve this apparent contradiction.

But why would one want to attain Heaven (service of Vishnu) when he can attain direct association of Krsna and participate in His lila by the mercy of the vaisnava?

Is it not said that the Demigods have little or no knowledge of Krsna and are thus forced to live out their karma and have to wait until they are again born into Bhumiloka to transend? For me this would seem like a sentence of forced service do to desires and thus deprive one of the ability to serve the devotees.

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 2, 2005 6:36 pm

though attainment of transcendence is a side effect, not a goal.

Dear Prabhu:

I do not understand. Is it not our goal to transend this material world and join directly in the service of the parampara (Sri Guru in Krsna lila) ?

NrsinghaDas - April 2, 2005 7:45 pm

Krsangi has brought up annother question, and apparent contradiction. It is said that one who dies in sattva attains heaven, whereas one who dies in rajas reurns to human society. However, elsewhere it is also said that human society is the best palce from which to attain transcendence (see SB 5th canto). Let's see if we can resolve this apparent contradiction.

The idea that sattva guna gives rise to spiritual life is not supported in the scripture (at least as far as I know :huh: ). Where as the idea that spiritual life gives rise to sattva guna is. The scripture says that spiritual life is the cause of spiritual life, (bhaktya sanjataya bhaktya). And this happens gradually due to good association, in degrees begining with sukrti.

As far as I understand, the reason that earth is ostensibly more favorable for spiritual life then heaven, or hell for that matter, is becuase it is a balance of suffering and pleasure, and thus it potentialy allows the jiva to revaluate the nature of material existance. And hopefully come to the point of brahma jijnasa. In otherwords heaven is so prevaded by sense gratification that no one takes the danger of material existance seriously, and in hell the suffering is far to extreme to formulate even a half sober thought. I guess Earth could also be considered favorable becuase the the bhagavatas may frequent here more often to canvass for potential Vaisnavas, knowing that the jivas are aware of their vounerable condition and that should enhance their receptivity.

But ultimatly it comes back to sukrti. I dont see why birth on this earth planet is more favorable then a birth in heaven or hell (at least as far as spiritual life is concerned), if the person on earth has no dissposition twords bhakti and the others (in heaven, or hell) do. As always, it will depend on asociation, wich can be had anywhere.

näräyaëa-paräù sarve

na kutaçcana bibhyati

svargäpavarga-narakeñv

api tulyärtha-darçinaù

Devotees solely engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Näräyaëa, never fear any condition of life. For them the heavenly planets, liberation and the hellish planets are all the same, for such devotees are interested only in the service of the Lord. s.b 6.17.28

Although sukrti may be more of a consideration in spiritual progress then just taking birth on the earth planet, birth here now is such a blessing that it indicates that there is probably sukrti behind it.

kalim sabhäjayanty äryä

guëa jïäù sära-bhäginaù

yatra saìkértanenaiva

sarva-svärtho ’bhilabhyate

Those who are actually advanced in knowledge are able to appreciate the essential value of this age of Kali. Such enlightened persons worship Kali-yuga because in this fallen age all perfection of life can easily be achieved by the performance of saìkértana.

kåñëa-varëaà tviñäkåñëaà

säìgopäìgästra-pärñadam

yajïaiù saìkértana-präyair

yajanti hi su-medhasaù

In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kåñëa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kåñëa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.

Swami - April 2, 2005 8:00 pm

The first thing one should do before attempting to answer this question is look up what the 5th Canto says about birth in Bharatavarsa (Earth). Then look up what the Gita says about dying in sattva, also look to the 11th canto in the Uddhava Gita , which paralleles the Bhagavad Gita and thus also has chapter on the modes of nature. What else does the Gita say about dying and attainment? Look in chapter eight and six.

Of the three answers offered thus far, I can't make much sense out of the first two (Nanadatanuja and Bijaya Kumara). The third (Nrsingha) has some merit (the first part about the nature of Earth as opposed to heaven or hell), but then the answer gets splayed out and comes up short.

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 4, 2005 4:04 am

Of the three answers offered thus far, I can't make much sense out of the first two (Nanadatanuja and Bijaya Kumara).

Dear Guru Maharaja:

This what I was trying to say:

SB 5.19 Summary

Thus one may be elevated to Brahmaloka, but then one must again descend to earth, as confirmed in Çrémad Bhagavad-gétä (äbrahma-bhuvanäl lokäù punar ävartino ’rjuna [bg. 8.16]). If those who live in Bhärata-varña rigidly follow the principles of varëäçrama-dharma and develop their dormant Kåñëa consciousness, they need not return to this material world after death. Any place where one cannot hear about the Supreme Personality of Godhead from realized souls, even if it be Brahmaloka, is not very congenial to the living entity.

SB 3.25.15 lectures in Bombay

So anyway, even if you go to the Brahmaloka, that is not also perfection. Äbrahma-bhuvanäl lokäù punar ävartino ’rjuna [bg. 8.16]. There is no benefit.

Because there also the four principles of miserable condition, janma-måtyu-jarä-vyädhi, they are there, even in the Brahmaloka. Brahmä also dies. Brahmä also takes birth. ..... That is bondage, bandhana. Guëeñu saktaà bandhäya.

As far as why birth on Earth is special it is because Krsna appears here.

Letter to: Tosana Krsna

Seattle

7 October, 1968

68-10-07

Regarding your question about this planet and Krishna's coming here, you may note that Krishna comes within this universe once in one day of Brahma. Duration of Brahma's day is very very long, it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita--432 crores of years forms the duration of 12 hours of Brahma's day. And similarly, there are 12 hours of night, so after 864 crores of years, Krishna comes in this universe, and whenever He comes, He of course, appears on this planet, that is the fortune of the people of this planet. We should know very clearly that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is neither Indian nor American, as much as the sun is neither Indian nor American. The original name of this planet is called Bharatavarsa, and before that it was known as Ilavrtavarsa. Now since the day of Emperor Bharata, this planet is know as Bharatavarsa, but in course of time, the human race divided, therefore we find so many other names. But the original name of this planet is Bharatavarsa, and in the Vedic literature, it is stated that anyone who takes birth on this planet, they are very fortunate. Because it is the special planet where Krishna descends when He comes.

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 4, 2005 5:20 am

. What else does the Gita say about dying and attainment? Look in chapter eight and six.

Once attaing Krsna by mercy of the vaisnava we do not return here.

"- CHAPTER 8 -

Attaining the Supreme

After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogés in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

Thus end the Bhaktivedanta Purports to the Eighth Chapter of the Çrémad Bhagavad-gétä in the matter of Attaining the Supreme.

trai-vidyäù—the knowers of the three Vedas; mäm—Me; soma-päù—drinkers of soma juice; püta—purified; päpäù—of sins; yajïaiù—with sacrifices; iñövä—worshiping; svaù-gatim—passage to heaven; prärthayante—pray for; te—they; puëyam—pious; äsädya—attaining; sura-indra—of Indra; lokam—the world; açnanti—enjoy; divyän—celestial; divi—in heaven; deva-bhogän—the pleasures of the gods.

There are many persons who create incarnations. They falsely claim an ordinary human to be an incarnation, but this is all foolishness. We should follow the principles of Bhagavad-gétä, otherwise there is no possibility of attaining perfect spiritual knowledge. Although Bhagavad-gétä is considered the preliminary study of the science of God, still it is so perfect that it enables one to distinguish what is what. The followers of a pseudo incarnation may say that they have also seen the transcendental incarnation of God, the universal form, but that is unacceptable because it is clearly stated here that unless one becomes a devotee of Kåñëa one cannot see the universal form of God. So one first of all has to become a pure devotee of Kåñëa; then he can claim that he can show the universal form of what he has seen. A devotee of Kåñëa cannot accept false incarnations or followers of false incarnations."

"The human life is meant for attaining eternal and unlimited happiness by spiritual realization. This spiritual realization is obtained by tapasya, or undergoing voluntarily the path of penance and abstinence from material pleasure. "

The attainment of freedom from material existence.

"BG 15. purport

In the Vedas also (Çvetäçvatara Upaniñad 3.8) we learn, tam eva viditväti måtyum eti: “One can overcome the path of birth and death only by understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kåñëa.” In other words, perfection of the yoga system is the attainment of freedom from material existence and not some magical jugglery or gymnastic feats to befool innocent people."

BG 6.24

If there is a delay in the attainment of success do not become discouraged

"Bhagavad-gétä 6.47

Ahmedabad, December 12, 1972

We are taking birth and dying without any knowledge. Bhütvä bhütvä praléyate. But this is not our position. Our position is as good as Kåñëa. Kåñëa is all powerful. We are minute. He is vibhu, we are aëu. That is the difference. Otherwise, qualitatively, we are all one. So why you are under this obligation of taking birth and dying again. This is our impure existence. This is our impure existence."

So we definately need Your help Gurudeva

Swami - April 4, 2005 1:07 pm

Bijaya,

The purpose of my suggesting that members look to certain chapters for information was to help them use that information to answer the question. You have not done so. The question is:

If according to the Gita one who dies in gooddness goes to heaven and one who dies in passion comes back to human society, and if as it is said elesewhere, huamn society is the best place from which to transcend material life altogether, is it not better to die in the mode of passion? The exercise here is to resolve this apparent contradiction with logic and scripture. Cutting and pasting large sections that are vaguely realted to the question is not helpful, and less so when one does not put them together with logic explaining what they say relative to the question. :blink:

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 5, 2005 5:11 am

- I would like to stop being born.

- Attain Me.

Bg 8.16

From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again.

- How can I attain You?

- Remember Me at the moment of your death.

Bg 8.5

And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body remembering Me alone at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.

- How can I remember You?

- Perform devotional service constantly.

Bg 8.14

For one who always remembers Me without deviation, I am easy to obtain, O son of Prtha, because of his constant engagement in devotional service.

- What mode of nature I will be situated while worshiping You?

- Goodness.

SB 11.25.10

Any person, whether man or woman, who worships Me with loving devotion, offering his or her prescribed duties unto Me without material attachment, is understood to be situated in goodness.

- What mode of nature is the best to realize You?

- Goodness.

SB 11.25.16

When consciousness becomes clear and the senses are detached from matter, one experiences fearlessness within the material body and detachment from the material mind. You should understand this situation to be the predominance of the mode of goodness, in which one has the opportunity to realize Me.

- Where will I go if I die in the mode of goodness?

- Heavenly planets.

SB 11.25.22

Those who leave this world in the mode of goodness go to the heavenly planets, those who pass away in the mode of passion remain in the world of human beings, and those dying in the mode of ignorance must go to hell. But those who are free from the influence of all modes of nature come to Me.

- I don't want to go to heavenly planets, I want to attain You.

- Lose all of your attachments, transcend all modes of nature.

SB 11.25.34-35

A wise sage, free from all material association and unbewildered, should subdue his senses and worship Me. He should conquer the modes of passion and ignorance by engaging himself only with things in the mode of goodness. Then, being fixed in devotional service, the sage should also conquer the material mode of goodness by indifference toward the modes. Thus pacified within his mind, the spirit soul, freed from the modes of nature, gives up the very cause of his conditioned life and attains Me.

- Why being born on Earth is very advantageous to attaining You?

- People who are born in Bharata-varsa (Earth) are properly trained to engage in the service of Lord Visnu according to the four social divisions [brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra] and the four spiritual divisions [brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa]. By following the principles of varnasrama-dharma, one gets the opportunity to associate with pure devotees. As a result of associating with devotees, one gradually renders service to Lord Vasudeva. One who lives there can elevate himself to full Krsna consciousness and achieve the highest perfection, even in this short life, by fully surrendering unto the lotus feet of the Lord. Bharata-varsa offers the proper land and circumstances in which to execute devotional service, which can free one from the results of jnana and karma (SB 5.19.19-28).

- What about demigods?

- Demigods in another hand, are certainly very engaged in material sense gratification, and therefore can hardly remember the lotus feet of Lord Narayana. Indeed, because of their excessive sense gratification, they have almost forgotten His lotus feet. When they have thus enjoyed vast heavenly sense pleasure and the results of their pious activities are exhausted, they return to this mortal planet again (Bg 9.21). Even if one is elevated to Brahmaloka, he must return to repeated birth and death (SB 5.19.19-28).

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 5, 2005 6:05 am

If according to the Gita one who dies in gooddness goes to heaven and one who dies in passion comes back to human society, and if as it is said elesewhere, huamn society is the best place from which to transcend material life altogether, is it not better to die in the mode of passion? The exercise here is to resolve this apparent contradiction with logic and scripture.

Dear Guru Maharaja:

Thank you for the clairification.

I shall certainly try.

So if one dies in the mode of passion in association with devotee they would be better off than dying in the mode of goodness.

"SB 5.19 Summary

We may also be reborn and begin again where we left off Like King Maharaja Bharat who took a birth as a deer but again got the association of Krsna. And if one dies in the mode of goodness and does not have the association of devotees then they lived a life devoid of Krsna conciousness.

"SB 3.25.15 lectures in Bombay

So anyway, even if you go to the Brahmaloka, that is not also perfection. Äbrahma-bhuvanäl lokäù punar ävartino ’rjuna [bg. 8.16]. There is no benefit.

Swami - April 5, 2005 12:59 pm

We are not quite there yet. Keep trying. I have given hints as to where to look for the answer, but no one has followed up on all of those hints :blink:

One more thing, if you are going to cite slokas from the Folio, you need to take out the diacritics and replace them with the correct letters if you expect anyone to read them.

Vrindaranya Dasi - April 6, 2005 5:12 pm

If according to the Gita one who dies in goodness goes to heaven and one who dies in passion comes back to human society, and if as it is said elsewhere, human society is the best place from which to transcend material life altogether, is it not better to die in the mode of passion?

The Gita actually says that one dies in the mode of goodness goes to the pure higher planets of the great sages. The Bhagavatam says, “Learned persons dedicated to Vedic culture are elevated by the mode of goodness to higher and higher positions” (SB 11.25.21) and “those who leave this world in the mode of goodness go to the heavenly planets.” (SB 11.25.22) So do those in the mode of goodness go to heaven or the higher planets of the sages? We can understand in this way: those following the karma marg who die in the mode of goodness go to heaven and those following the jnana marg go to the higher planets of the sages.

As for the devotees, their destination is described in the sixth chapter. The unsuccessful devotee who dies falling prey to material allurements takes birth in heaven to play out his or her material desires and later takes birth in a righteous or aristocratic family on earth. (Bg. 6.41) The devotee who dies after a long time of practice but doesn’t attain perfection is born into a family of transcendentalists on earth to continue spiritual practice. (Bg. 6.42)

We can understand that this is the general course but that there are exceptions because we hear from SB 3.33.7 that even those devotees born into families of dog-eaters are far, far advanced in spiritual life. In other words, being born into righteous, aristocratic, or transcendentalist families are not the only situations that devotees are born into. The devotee is dependant on the Lord, and the Lord may put a devotee into any situation for His own purpose.

What mode of nature I will be situated while worshiping You?
- Goodness.

In the beginning, a devotee might be primarily influenced by any of the modes of material nature, although the worship itself is of the nature of suddha-sattva. At nistha, devotees are firmly situated in sattva-guna, the lower modes no longer being present. On a side note, such devotees are not cultivating sattva but rather suddha-sattva. At bhava, suddha-sattva fully descends into the devotee’s heart. At this point on can perform bhakti proper. The devotee who performs bhakti proper is therefore situated not in sattva but suddha-sattva, which is the Lord’s internal energy and completely transcendental to the modes of material energy.

SB 11.25.10 is not talking about a devotee practicing suddha-bhakti. The verse says, "...offering his or her prescribed duties unto Me...", which means one following varnashram dharma. The platform of suddha-bhakti is Bg. 18.66, "Forgoing all religious injunctions, take exclusive refuge in me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear."

Swami - April 8, 2005 4:22 pm

Vrindaranya has given a comprehensive answer on this topic. I would only like to add that the devotee's next birth is ultimately in the hands of Krsna, and as others have demonstrated, it is of no consequence to devotees. A devotee wants to serve Krsna in any condition, and thus his or her life does not change, while the scenery may. Don't be copncerned with your next life, be concerend with this life and use you time wisely.