Tattva-viveka
how to wear the garland of trnad api...
Madangopal - March 26, 2005 5:04 pm
The other night on the phone Swami was suggesting to us that we could get the most out of Gaura Purnima by wearing the garland of the trnad api sunicena verse and chanting the holy name in that spirit. I thought, "all right, let's try it!" About two seconds later my mind came up with a reason why I could not. 
Just see how practiced I am!
I falsely reasoned thus: as an aspiring devotee in the material world I must progress toward the madhyama stage, characterized by discrimination. Isn't discrimination the opposite of the straw in the street? Swami explained on a cd that the straw in the street just "blows along with the wind". But I know that Lord Gauranga did not just get blown away by Prakasananda Saraswati, Sarvabhauma or other great philosophers... He was very humble, but never sentimental or wishy washy.
So how are discrimination and humility compatible? Is trnad api only for the uttama while discrimination works better for the madhyama? That can't be right! It seems that discrimination involves so much non-humble processes like making judgements, ignoring sentiment or emotion, calling the shots... Any thoughts anybody? I want to wear that garland but my head is too big or something.
Shyam Gopal Das - March 26, 2005 5:48 pm
I don't know in which context this comparison was made: "Swami explained on a cd that the straw in the street just "blows along with the wind"." But I think you should take it as an illustration, maybe in the vein of we should blow along with Krishna. It takes discrimination to see with whom we should blow along with.
We don't want to blow in the wrong direction because of our humbleness. Humbleness means to surrender to Krishna, and it takes discrimination to see how we can surrender to Krishna and what we should renounce in this process. So I don't see any problem with using our discrimination to be humble...
NrsinghaDas - March 26, 2005 8:10 pm
I agree that there does seem to be some sort of contradiction between the standard of humility mentioned in the "trnad api" verse and the drescriminitory nature of the madhyama adhikari. The madhyama adikari is described as seeing different classes of persons, some are down right envious, while others although they are ostensibly making offences still fall into the category of innocent becuase it is inadvertant. The madhyama adikari has to distinguish all these things and deal with the people accordingly, wich may include avoiding, challenging, or even critsizing others in their own sampradaya. These things are not necessarily what comes to our mind when we think of "humbler then a blade of grass".
Ive thought about this on more then one occasion becuase one of the natural propensitys of the kanishtha is fualt finding. So I dont want to confuse my propensity to find fualts in others with the spiritualy motivated discrimination of a madhyama adikari.
As far as I can understand the main thing that seperates the two is the underlying desire of the devotee. If one has a storng desire to go twords Krsna then naturally they arent interested in the shortcomings of others. But because they have a strong desire for Krsna, He also provides them with the necessary intelligence to approach Him. Therefore the ability to descriminate is not directly desired by the devotee, but the ability to descriminate arises out of natural necessity, due to their direct desire to know Krsna. Because it is not initiated by their own eogism it is not pride, but instead they are being most humble because they follow descending knowlege or knowlege that comes from beyond themself . And because cooperation with proper desrimination assists one in aceiving Krsna it also selfless. Another cause for humility is that ultimatly we cant always know who is who even in very advanced stages. There are different pastimes that illistarate how even great devotees were not able to recognize other great devotees or sometimes even the Lord Himself. So a madhyama adikari can reflect on that point, and feel a sense of gravity that "Oh Krsna, I may make a mistake in my evalution, so please forgive me. My only motive is to find You, so any mistake I may make in the proscess, I ask that you except the purpose behind it and protect me."
Robertnewman - March 27, 2005 2:10 am
So how are discrimination and humility compatible?
Until we reach the uttama stage of awareness, we need to exercise discrimination in order to be truly and appropriately humble. The metaphor of the straw in the street, blowing around in the wind and being stepped on without protesting, is full of truth, but like any metaphor it can be counterproductive if misapplied or taken too literally without due consideration. We are advised to follow the saints and not to imitate them. That instruction is a prescription to exercise discrimination in all that we do, and such discrimination in itself is a manifestation of humility.
Swami - March 27, 2005 2:54 pm
I fail to see how discrimination and humility are incompatable. One must use one's head to soften one's heart. The humility Mahaprabhu speaks of has a context. It is humility in the context of serving Krsna. Thus it sometimes expresses itself outwardly as something that may appear proud. For example, someone may be lecturing from a high seat about Mahaprabhu's standard of humility. His humility is that he is doing Mahaprabhu's bidding, and on his order serving as guru and accepting appropriate respect.
This third verse of Siksastakam is about nistha and the madhyama adhikari. It speaks of humilty arsing from the soul, not the mind. Thus it is an ideal of behavior to be realized as one experiences one's own finite nature. In the meantime one must exercise mental humility, being humbled by one's own shortcomings, anarthas, and lack of appreciation for the fact that Rasaraja Krsna, the supreme enjoyer, has taken up the position of a sweeper in one's heart.
Swami - March 27, 2005 2:58 pm
The straw blowing in the wind example is about the idea that although a straw goes with the wind, we resist the favorable wind of Krsna consciousness and good advice. Thus we are "lower than the straw in the street." This comes from Thakura Bhaktivinoda.
Robertnewman - March 27, 2005 4:29 pm
This little sutra (from the school of Zen Vaishnavism) may also help resolve the apparent contradiction: "A smart straw; a wide-awake tree."
Karnamrita Das - March 28, 2005 6:24 pm
Some years ago I read one of Robert Schuller's books, "Prayer: My Souls Adventure with God", and one of his statments has stuck with me. He said that self confidence and humility are not mutually exclusive and can go together. Reading the above discussion I looked it up. He says on pg 155:
"I got it---super self-confidence balanced with true humility---through meditation and a soul-strengthening sentence from Scripture.
When your pride is rooted in the gifts and grace of God, your humility will be assured!"
' It is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose.' (Phil. 2:13)
'Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it.' (Phil. 1:6)
Anyway you may like him or not, but he made a good point here, though certainly he doesn't understand the standard of the humility of grass. A least he is on the right track. Take the nectar, leave the rest.
Maharaja has explained how humility and discrimination co-exist. A humble person isn't a fool who just praises every body blindly while he trembles in the corner. To be truly humble requires a high degree of knowledge and realization.
It seems like the question should be, how is the humility of the Uttama and Madhyam devotee expressed differently? Only the so-called humility of the Kanistha would lack discrimination.
Babhru Das - March 28, 2005 7:14 pm
I've been meaning to say something very much like what Karnamrita just wrote. Humilityand confidence are not mutually exclusive. We may remain humble in the Lord's presence, and introspection, careful examination of our real position, helps us understand that properly. But we may also be very confident in his presence, and confident in our relationship with him, much as a child may feel quite confident in a room full of adults because he (or she) is holding tightly his father's (or mother's) hand.
The kind of discrimination involved begins with understanding whom we're dealing with and behaving accordinly: Is this the Lord? A devotee? Someone who needs help? Someone inimical to God? We may also need to discriminate among those who are more or less advanced, but, as Maharaja says, the humility and discrimination we're discussing are ultimately the heart's business, so while we may use intelligence to guide us, we don't need to get too perturbed.
Gopisvara Dasa - March 29, 2005 6:05 am
AS WE KNOW SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA DEFINED HUMILITY AS THE ABSENCE OF THE ENJOYING SPIRIT.BY THAT STANDARD THE HUMILITY OF MOST, EVEN SADHAKAS IS FAR FROM COMPLETE.BUT ACTING FROM WHERE WE ARE,WHICH IS ALL ANYONE CAN DO,IF WE ASPIRE TOWARDS THAT LOFTY GOAL,TO THE DEGREE THAT WE GIVE OF OURSELVES WE ARE PRACTICING HUMILITY.
THEN WE HAVE EVERY REASON TO BE CONFIDENT,BECAUSE WE ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING.WE ARE ACTING AS A SOUL, A UNIT OF SERVICE. BEING PROPERLY SITUATED, WE CAN BE ASSURED OF SUCCESS BECAUSE FAILURE IS SIMPLY A TEACHER TO SHOW US THAT WE ARE MISALIGNED WITH REALITY.
THE CONFIDENCE OF ONE ON THE PLATFORM OF THE FALSE EGO,ON THE OTHER HAND,IS SIMPLY A KIND OF ARROGANCE STEMMING FROM IGNORANCE .IF ONE HAS KNOWLEDGE OF THE OUTCOME OF ACTING IN SUCH A WAY,THERE WOULD BE NOTHING TO BE CONFIDENT ABOUT.
AS WE APPROACH THE INFINITE,WE ARE HUMBLED BY OUR MINUTENESS,BUT SIMULTANEOUSLY ENCOURAGED BY OUR PROSPECT.
SEEN IN THIS LIGHT CONFIDENCE IS THE LOGICAL EXTENTION OF HUMILITY.
Vrindaranya Dasi - March 29, 2005 4:00 pm
Thank you, Gopisvara, for clarifying this issue for me. We often think of humility as the feeling that we are falling short. By extension we conclude that full humility is thinking that we are completely falling short. This certainly doesn’t bring much confidence, or discrimination, for that matter. Seen differently, humility is knowing that we are doing the right thing, even partially, but that it is all due to the mercy of Guru and Krsna, not our own merit. Thus according to our surrender to that mercy, we are full of confidence.
Shyam Gopal Das - March 29, 2005 5:11 pm
Thanks, Gopisvara. This puts humility in a much better light for me.
Madangopal - March 29, 2005 5:58 pm
Regarding humility and confidence being compatible, one temple president I had always used to quote an instance from Prabhupada lore. One devotee from Chicago asked Prabhupada what humility meant and the reply was "Being bold for Krsna." It is obvious that this was Prabhupada's external manifestation of humility as he would often refer to his accomplishments as the mercy of his spiritual master. In that attitude we see confidence in the master but nothing demonstrating faint-heartedness.
Citta Hari Dasa - March 29, 2005 7:11 pm
Discrimination in relation to oneself gives rise to humility, in that clearly seeing our shortcomings makes us humble. Discrimination in relation to others is required to effectively carry out the service asked of us by our Gurudeva. Humbly submitting to the will of guru and Krsna and fully exercising one's discriminative intelligence go hand in hand.
Madangopal - March 29, 2005 7:22 pm
Simple and well put Citta Hari. Thanks for summing it up so well.