in the name of trinad api sunicena

Haridas.bts - May 6, 2005 9:22 am

Sorry if anyone is getting fed up of my writings....


Anyways, this could have gone on the controversies section but i feel it has some philososphical possiblities.


When discussing Babhru prabhus defense against Danavir Maharaja, i was thinking about tolerance and the trinad api verse.


For a while-as i have had to tolerate a lot, i was thinking, by tolerating i am maybe making some advancement and maybe staying out of trouble, but at the same time, when someone does or says something wrong or offensive, if it is not mentioned or dealt with they are getting away with it in a certain sense. Not that Krsna doesnt notice, he will also deal with it.


But from a socialogical and moral point of view-if vaisnava societies allow their devotees-even seniors to blaspheme and even lie away at their hearts content then this is anti vaisnava culture.


A vaisnava, what to speak of a Guru/Sanyassi is supposed to be truthful, especially in kali as this is the last leg of dharma.


Babhru prabhus defense is excellent-it gets straight to the point and exposes aparadha and lies. IS this not the duty of a vaisnava-to stand for truth?


My own experience is that we are always told to apply trinad api sunicena in all circumstances-yes we can and not get angry when we ourselves are abused-but can we not do something about it i.e tell others and rally against ill behaviour towards one and all?


It is absolutely shocking how many treat each other, and falsely call each other prabhu.


If we really meant this word "prabhu"-then there would be no aparadha.


Iskcon thinks it can treat everyone outside its walls as lesser mortals and as such it has created a reputation and anyone coming into those walls WILL BE AFFECTED in their consciouness wether they also adopt this behaviour or not, because it will creep in their being-like it or not.


I say tolerate-but do not allow it to keep happenning, find the balance somewhere and draw the line.


what say you all?

Gauravani Dasa - May 6, 2005 3:41 pm

I am not able to address of all the issues raised in your post Haridas Prabhu, but I have heard Guru Maharaja say that we should be humble before God and his devotees. Yet when we are faced with vaisnava aparadha or apasiddhanta, we should be fierce in defending Guru and tattva. This requires a good understanding of the tattva itself, otherwise, how could one recognize the apasiddhanta? It seems that real humility before Guru and Gauranga gives rise to natural conviction required to defend both.


Like Srila Prabhupada, who humbly took the instructions of his Gurudeva and came to the West and preached very strongly, especially against mayavada philosophy, all on behalf of his Guru. If we don't have the impetus to take the Guru's instructions seriously, where will be the drive to defend those instructions and their application?


Just thinking out loud :)

Haridas.bts - May 6, 2005 4:02 pm

good points fred!


yes, one has to be humble, but yes act fierce i.e use ones anger in Krsna and Gurus service when offenses and offensive mentalities prevail. Not just for ones own good as when we hear aparadha we also become implicated, but also to let the offender know that we aint allowing that sort of junk to keep entering our earholes.


So, i am trying to find the balance. If you knew what Bhakti Vikasa Maharaja said about BTSwami you would actually be shocked, it is only that i do not want to contaminate this sacred forum that i do not post such.


I have also been trying my hardest not to write the offender in person and let him know that i do not accept the way he is trying to minimise my nama guru.


I do not believe it is going against the philosophy to allow someone to abuse us or others. It could be called self protection and this we have a right to do, after all spiritual life is compared to a razors edge and we could fall off if not careful, or maybe as we have seen from history people have left spiritual life due to abuse and neglect.


If someone chastises out of love and trying to help us advance then that is wanted and even embraced-i remember a few times BTSwami shouted at me and actually i was in exstacy! I wrote him a while back about this and mentioned that some of the best memories i have were of him being heavy-and he wrote back saying he was proud of me for having this attitude.


But...... what if someone is in a bad mood or has a bad attitude and wants to be mean out of frustration? we see this a lot, frustrated devotees and they relish taking out their frustrations on others. Do we let them do this?? and allow them to hurt us and wreck our emotional side or do we draw the line?


BTSwami speaks about forgiveness, and one point he makes is that forgiveness does not mean that what happened was right.


Best to get out of the way of people who just want to hurt us and not use loving weapons to help us advance and shake us out of illusion


Thanks for your reply fred prabhu!

Babhru Das - May 6, 2005 5:49 pm

In fact, I wrote that article precisely because it was such a blatant affront to our philosophy and to our Swami. If DG had simply been a little mistaken here and there, I might have taken a very differrent approach. But because it was absolutuely wrong at best and quite likely motivated by some personal enmity, and because it was so clear from the article that DG was just making things up and hadn't acually read the book he pretended to critique, I acted immediately. I showed his piece to my wife, then went in to our home office and wrote a first draft. Fortunately, I don't think I have it any more; when my wife read that draft, she raised her eyebrows and asked, "Is this what you really want to publish?" I was practically foaming at the mouth.


"Damned right ! He's so off, so out of line that . . . !" I ranted for a minute or two, then went back to the keyboard for a new draft as she chuckled and shook her head. First drafts can be good for venting, as well as many other things. Over the following few days, I had a lot of very good help in editing out any intemperate remarks from Satyaki, the folks at Chakra, Umapati Maharaja, and especially Vrindaranya and Swami. The finished draft was, I think, a pretty good example of the kind of writing I advocate among devotees. It was strong (strong enough that DG never responded, even to my personal emails) but not nasty.


My old temple president from my brahmachari days remarked that humility means being loyal to guru and Krishna. Because much of what I post on the Web and Web forums addresses the way devotees discuss issues rather than taking a stand on many of the issues themselves, I'm often criticized for being too soft, perhaps too inclined toward harmonizing. But I've told them that when I do express my opinion, there will be no mistaking it.

Gopisvara Dasa - May 6, 2005 8:49 pm

This discussion is relevant to me at this time since I am involved in a discussion with some devotees on another forum. We shouldn't shy away from pointing out discrepencies in understanding and siddhanta, to the extent we feel capable of making good points But sometimes if there is no fertile ground for good reasoning,due to pride, there is a strong tendency for the discussion to degenerate,coming from at least one side.

Then we may be called upon to exercise tolerance and generosity,being careful not to react to any unbecoming remarks and continue to discuss philosophy like gentlemen. When this is not fruitful,then it is better to invest your energy in a more productive engagement.As common sense as this may sound and seemingly not neccesary to point out, it is amazing how much discussion is going on bereft of this simple insight. Another example of manusyanam sahasresu.