Tattva-viveka
Importance of Varnasrama
Swami - May 9, 2005 2:25 am
It may be useful to discuss Varnasrama.
What is it?
What is its relevance to Guadiya Vaisnavism and the times in which we live?
There are many notions out and about concerning this topic. Some are more correct than others. There may be some room to think about this differently and still be correct. Let's discuss it.
Rama-priya - May 9, 2005 8:16 am
Varnasrama-dharma is the system of social and spiritual division for four varnas or social orders (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra) and four asramas, or spiritual orders (brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasa). Its goal is to help people make spiritual advancement, pure the heart and the mind.
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave us ideal, being beyond varnasrama system He says: " I am not a brahmana, nor a ksatriya; I am not a vaisya nor a sudra, I am not a brahmacari, nor a householder, not a vanaprastha, not a sannyasi. But since Lord Sri Krsna, the maintainer of the gopis and the overflowing ocean of nectar, is the only source of universal, transcendental bliss, I claim to be a servant to the servant of the servant of His lotus feet." Saying this He indicates, that varnasrama is material identity, that someone see oneself as vaisya, sudra, brahmacari or grihastha etc.
From another side for those, who cannot totally absorb oneself in such spiritual consciousness I think that some spirit of varnasrama dharma is necessary – to act according to own possibilities and be responsible for own actions, do everything what is pleased to Sri Guru and Sri Krsna and do such service with full responsibility and consciousness. Offering result of own work to Krsna I think it can be some application of this system in our times. It is difficult to classify oneself to any of these groups, but each one can do what he or she does as offering to God, trying at the same time to develop consciousness seeing oneself as a spirit and servant of God.
Y.s.
Rama-priya
Bhrigu - May 9, 2005 9:35 am
The basic meaning of varnashrama-dharma is rules relating to varna and ashrama. Thus, for example, a brahmin brahmacari is enjoined to carry a staff of palasha-wood (and a ksatriya one of another type of wood, and a grihastha no staff at all). Still, in practical terms, material varnashrama is concerned primarily with purity. The two primary questions could be said to be "Who can I accept food from?", and "Whom can I marry?". For Western devotees, neither of these questions is relevant.
Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati spoke about a "daivi-varnashrama" to help people practice KC within society. The classical view of Vaishnavas was the system with Babajis and Matajis that had transcended ordinary society, but it had degenerated during his time. BS wanted to insitute a new system, training a spiritual elite of brahmana brahmacaris and sannyasis to provide spiritual teaching and leadership to the other varnas and ashramas.
Bhaktivinoda Thakur suggested that community elders decide the varna of every child at the age of 15. Generally it would follow that of their parents, but in exceptional cases it could be different. If lower, the child would get a two-year time to rectify him/ herself. After this, the appropriate (upanayana etc) samskaras would be performed.
However, there are two problems with this. 15 is way too late to start a Vedic education. If somebody is going to learn parts of the Veda by heart, they have to start much earlier. At the same time, 15 is in many cases much too early to decide the nature of a child. I know many persons who were very different from what they are as adults when they were 15.
I don't know how to resolve this, or even if it really needs to be resolved. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's idea seems to have been to focus purely on the brahmana brahmacaris and sannyasis, and let secular society take care of the rest.
Gauravani Dasa - May 9, 2005 10:06 am
For the west, the essence of varnasrama is that one be enaged according to his psycho-physical constitution. Once a person is in a proper position from which his/her propensities are enaged, one can practice spiritual life--offering the fruits of one's work to God--without being too distracted by the details of material life. This system allows one to be mentally peaceful, engaged in work that is satisfying according to one's conditioning, while at the same time purifying.
As Guru Maharaja, mentions in his Gita commentary, one's position is not as easily classified into the four varnas, so the work that one finds satisfying will cross these boundaries, and therefore be engaged in a variety of work.
Shyam Gopal Das - May 9, 2005 2:48 pm
I think that in another way we can see the spirit of the varnasrama system. It not just engages us in what we are most suited for, but it engages us in work that we are most suited for and which is at the same time close to developing God consciousness. It's work that is God positive so to speak. I know you have said quite the same thing, Bhakta Fred, but I want to add that some jobs may make one mentally peaceful while at the same not being very much God conscious.
Having entered the business world myself recently, I have actually noticed the many business courses with a spiritual edge and have been thinking about how maybe the symbolism of varnasrama dharma can become a tool for preaching Krishna conscious. But then again, I think too much.
Gauravani Dasa - May 9, 2005 3:26 pm
I agree. My understanding is that even though the job itself might not make us God conscious, detachment from the fruits of that work, perhaps in the form of donating money to build a temple or publish a book about Krishna, would make us God conscious.
I don't have direct experience of it, but I could imagine how if one where to give the fruits of his work, whatever kind of work it may be, that gradually one could see his work as service. The act of giving the fruits to Krishna could in fact purify one to the point that if their work is not directly increasing their love for Krishna, he/she eventually looses their satisfaction with it and goes on to more conducive activities.
Of course a "traditional" varnasrama system would include work that is directly cultivates God consciousness, but in the modern world, esp the West, its hard to make a living and support your family inside of a traditional system.
Swami - May 10, 2005 3:57 pm
It is said that in satya yuga there is only one ashrama, hamsa. This sounds like something beyond varnasrama. Whereas in kali yuga it is said that everyone is born as a sudra or less, which sounds like something beneath varnasrama. Does anyone know where the statement "kalau surda sambhavah" comes from? What does it imply?
Gauravani Dasa - May 11, 2005 12:38 am
It is said that in satya yuga there is only one ashrama, hamsa. This sounds like something beyond varnasrama. Whereas in kali yuga it is said that everyone is born as a sudra or less, which sounds like something beneath varnasrama. Does anyone know where the statement "kalau surda sambhavah" comes from? What does it imply?
In his introduction to Sri Gayatri Mantrartha Dipika, BG Narasingha Maharaja states that "kalau-sudra-sambhavah" comes from the Skanda Purana.
It seems to imply that adherence to varnasrama-dharma is a means to a goal outside of itself. If in satya-yuga varnasrama is basically negligible, and in kali-yuga it is practically unrealistic to implement in a strict sense, then to whatever extent it is practiced in either case is only serving a purpose ultimately outside of itself.
Swami - May 11, 2005 4:05 am
Yes, spiritually speaking it is devinitely not an end unto itself. The Bhagavatam says
dharmah svanusthitah pumsam
visvaksena-kathasu yah
notpadayed yadi ratim
srama eva hi kevalam
SB 1.2.8
"Execution of one's duty in varnasrama is only so much labor if it does not give rise to love for Hari katha."
and
atah pumbhir dvija-srestha
varnasrama-vibhagasah
svanusthitasya dharmasya
samsiddhir hari-tosanam
SB 1.2.13
"O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties of varnasrama is to please the Personality of Godhead."
In other words, varnasrama dharma is only as valuable as its execution pleases Hari, and we know that it does not do so very much in comparison the Bhagavata dharma. Both of these verse fall in the section of the Bhagavata (1.2.6-1.2.29) where Suta Goswami answeres the sages question from chapter on as to what the higest dharma is. It is a very important section with many verses worth learning.
Gauravani Dasa - May 11, 2005 12:55 pm
SB 1.2.7: "By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world."
SB 1.2.8: "Execution of one's duty in varnasrama is only so much labor if it does not give rise to love for Hari katha."
This detachment and rise for love of Hari katha can only be experienced subjectively, right? Its seems like we have to look for these things in ourselves and to the extent that they may not be developing, do we make adjustments personally, follow the lead of our Gurudeva or a combination of both?
It seems possible for a person to make adjustments (sometimes with an agenda), while attempting to impose his own adjustments/emphasis on others, and ultimately having the reverse effect stated in the SB.
Swami - May 11, 2005 6:54 pm
Fred, your questions are not entirely clear to me.
Regarding the first one, it is important to understand that even though the Bhagavata says that knowledge and detachment quickly follow bhakti, it will usually take some time for this to manifest, as it will and more so for taste to appear, at least in a lasting sense. Knowledge and detachment are corrolaries. They correspond with one another. One in knowldge does not purse enduring happiness in relation to things that do not endure. One in knowlwede is thus detached as well. This knowledge and detachment in turn correspond with liberation, which is subordinate to or follows bhakti. So the full sense of this verse is that when one gets suddha bhakti, knowledge and detachment immediately follow. Thus there is no need to pursue knowledge or detachment—the path sof jnana and vairagya—which is difficult, when by pursuing bhakti, which is comparatively easy, jnana and vairagya follow automatically.
So one must be a little patient. Otherwise, consultation with sri guru is always desirable. Even when we personally determine that we should make adjustments in our sadhana in pursuit of a taste for Harinama, if at all possible, we should seek confirmation from sri guru.
The second question is less clear to me. So I will wait for clarification before I try to answer it.
Gauravani Dasa - May 11, 2005 7:08 pm
I was just thinking of a specific example: a devotee might feel that part of implementing varnasrama means that women should be subordinate. This could end up more discouraging than encouraging.
Swami - May 12, 2005 2:26 pm
It has happened!
Overall I think that most advocates of varnasrama have a very superficial idea of all that actual varnasrama dharma consists of. It is very detailed and complex. The idea of four division of labor and ashram is the basic framework, but one would have to study the Dharma sastra to fill in all the details. Such a study might disenchant even many of its modern day advocates. Mostly there seems to be a picking and choosing of what appeals to someone in the system while leaving the rest out that is behind the campaign for implementing it. A cursory look into the "no sannyas for women" issue in the name of upholding varnasrama would be revealing. Such research would mandate no sannyas for most men today, unless they like to wear tree bark for underwear (unfortunately the emoticons don't seem to be working).
Brghu might have some knowlege of the details found in the Dharma sastra.
Otherwise, clearly, Vaisnava Dharma is above Varnasrama Dharma. Bhakti sastra transcends Dharma sastra. But what does that really mean? Didn't Maharpabhu follow varnasrama?
Bhrigu - May 12, 2005 3:03 pm
Brghu might have some knowlege of the details found in the Dharma sastra.
We don't even have to go to the dharma-shastras: just take a look at the Bhagavatam, Narada's teachings to Yudhisthira about the ashramas in the seventh canto. Brahmacaris with long, matted hair, belts of kusa-grass, dandas...
It seems to me that much of the Varnasrama discussion out there today is focused on trying to keep women in "their place". It's not only about men trying to keep up the patriarcate; there are legitimate issues of family values behind it as well. As an institution, the family is not faring very well today, and that is a problem. But such issues could perhaps be dealt with more easily if one did so without mixing in all the extra stuff a varnasrama-debate will bring with it.
Mahaprabhu did follow the rules for varnashrama in many ways. At times he broke the rules (such as when he danced with the body of Haridasa in his lap), but generally he was strict about them. He almost exclusively accepted prasadam only from brahmanas, for example. But why? To show that he was serious, not just another sentimentalist. Society was very strict with such things in those times.
Some of this applies even today, I think. For example, if we take prasadam with Indian devotees in India, we will make a fool out of ourselves -- and by extension, Guru Maharaja -- if we don't know all the rules for eating in the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava way. But if we start eating with our fingers in a restaurant in the West, we will be equally foolish. That's why trying to introduce some kind of varnashrama in the West is so problematic. What will be the point of it?
Sometimes we hear that varnashrama means to work according to your propensities, but that's what everyone does, isn't it? If Joe likes driving cars and therefore works as a taxidriver, does that make him a follower of varnasrama?
Guru-nistha Das - May 13, 2005 2:47 am
"What is its (varnasrama's) relevance to Guadiya Vaisnavism and the times in which we live?"
Varnasrama's relevance to Gaudiya Vaishnavism is that we should understand that eventhough we are devotees, most of us are under the influence of the modes of nature, and it's important to know ourselves in a material sense and see where we are at. If our intermediate goal is nistha, well-integrated position in the world helps foster sattva and lead us a step closer to our goal.
Varnasrama is relevant for the times we live in in a way the people should be more aware of their natures and understand their psychophysical makeup better, in order to make the environment more sattvic and in that way more conducive to spiritual life. But then again, what does it mean in practical terms that the substance of varnasrama could help modern people be more integrated? Should we start handing out leaflets on the streets of San Francisco that inform people about the three modes of nature and in what way they bind them? I don't think so. 
"Bhakti sastra transcends Dharma sastra. But what does that really mean? Didn't Maharpabhu follow varnasrama?"
It means that Dharma sastra is meant for regulated life that should ultimately lead to bhakti. And bhakti sastra describes the goal itself?
Swami - May 13, 2005 11:05 am
"Bhakti sastra transcends Dharma sastra. But what does that really mean? Didn't Maharpabhu follow varnasrama?"
It means that Dharma sastra is meant for regulated life that should ultimately lead to bhakti. And bhakti sastra describes the goal itself?
Does follwing dharma sastra naturally lead to bhakti? Is the Bhakti sastra only ablout the goal?
Gauravani Dasa - May 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Those who follow dharma sastra, developing satva and more faith in the scripture, will eventually find that the sastra speaks about more than just dharma. The combination of increased faith and piety could lead one to pursue spiritual life, transcendening religious life of dharma. Just like how Arjuna demonstrates his knowledge of dharma before Krsna begins to speak about the soul.
I think naturally is a good word as opposed to automatically, which implies that bhakti is dependent on dharma.
Bhakti sastra also speaks about the relationship between bhagavan, jiva and maya (sambhanda), the means for realizing that relationship (abdhideya), and the actual goal (prayojana).
Swami - May 13, 2005 1:42 pm
Good answer Fred. Only bhakti gives bhakti, but it is good to be religious too. Indeed, advanced devotees will be inclined to preach to the religious sector, giving them the opportunity to develop faith in bhakti. Yet addiction to dharma can also be a problem, especially when bhakti says things like api ced suduracaro . . . People addicted to dharma may have difficulty developing faith in bhakti and tend to be concerned that if they do not follow dharma sastra with regard to something they may be culpable even while engaged in bhakti. Just look at the example of Dharmaraja Yuddhistira himself in the Kuruksetra War when Sri Krsna told him to tell a lie. Oh Hari! thief of the heart!
Jason - May 14, 2005 8:40 pm
What about a person whose propensities are engaged, though they may not be situated completely in one ashram or another. (ie. people living with their fiances, partners, etc.) Though it may not be the "ideal", is it really detrimental?
Jason
Jason - May 14, 2005 8:47 pm
In Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 3:203, The example of Advaita Acharya is given as a model householder. It's often been told to me that this should be the way in which we try to execute the "ideal" grhastha ashram. Many don't even come close. Often times one person of the relationship isn't practicing to the extent that the other is. Does that mean that the relationship should be dissolved in search of something more favorable?
Swami - May 19, 2005 1:29 pm
So Vaisnava Dharma is superior to Varnasrama Dharma. Why then did Bhaktivinoda Thakura tell Bhaktisiddhnata Saraswati Thakura to preach "daiva varnasrama," and what does this term mean?
Hari Bhakti - May 19, 2005 7:49 pm
I am not sure of the detail as to why Bhaktivinoda Thakura told Bhaktisiddhnata Saraswati Thakura to preach "daiva varnasrama".
Although I do know that daiva varnasrama follows the idea given in the Bhagavad Gita (4.13?) of catur-varnyam. This is where Krsna says "the four divisions of human society were created by Me" essencially qualifying all people to take up brahminical culture.
Following the idea of catur-varnyam, the idea of asura-varnasrama, which bases social order of varna is indicated by birth is denied.
Gauravani Dasa - May 19, 2005 9:56 pm
During the time of Srila Bhaktivinoda and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, there was a great cultural emphasis on varnasrama, albiet a very corrupt and materialistic one. Bhaktivinoda emphasize daiva-varnasrama in order to demonstrate to those who were accustomed to the social structure that Vaisnavism could be practiced "inside" of it while factually being transcendental to it.
Doesn't daiva-varnasrama basically mean the same thing as Vaisnava dharma, ie, performing activities for the pleasure of the Lord?
Citta Hari Dasa - May 20, 2005 6:37 pm
So Vaisnava Dharma is superior to Varnasrama Dharma. Why then did Bhaktivinoda Thakura tell Bhaktisiddhnata Saraswati Thakura to preach "daiva varnasrama," and what does this term mean?
Daiva-varnasrama refers to a form of varnasrama for devotees. It was conceived of by BVT to give support to the practice of the newcomers to bhakti. Although Vaisnava dharma is superior to varnasrama dharma just because one takes up Vaisnava dharma does not make her or him automatically transcendental to the influence of the gunas. Devotees still need to be engaged according to their propensities, at least until they are pure enough to no longer be driven by those propensities.
Swami - May 20, 2005 9:38 pm
During the time of Srila Bhaktivinoda and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, there was a great cultural emphasis on varnasrama, albiet a very corrupt and materialistic one. Bhaktivinoda emphasize daiva-varnasrama in order to demonstrate to those who were accustomed to the social structure that Vaisnavism could be practiced "inside" of it while factually being transcendental to it.
Doesn't daiva-varnasrama basically mean the same thing as Vaisnava dharma, ie, performing activities for the pleasure of the Lord?
Bhakti is hearing and chanting, etc. about Krsna. One who has faith that by doing this alone all dharmic obligations are fulfilled treads the path of suddha bhakti. Performing one's duties in varnasrama does please the Lord, but only indirectly. This is not the same as bhakti. Bhakti is about cultivating a personal realtionship with Bhagavan.
Daiva varnasrama has two meanings. One meaning is a varnasrama system in which one's varna is not detrmined exclusively by birth, but rather in consideration of guna and karma. The second meaning is, as Citta Hari has mentioned, some form of varnasrama for Vaisnavas. The former is an example of the corruption said to be a symptom of kali-yuga. Before I go on, can anyone cite the Bhagavatam on the corruption of varnasrama in kali-yuga.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - May 20, 2005 10:42 pm
SB 12.2.12-14
ksiyamanesu dehesu dehinam kali-dosatah
varnasramavatam dharme nasne veda-pathe nrnam
pasanda-pracure dharme dasyu-prayesu rajasu
cauryanrta-vrtha-himsa-nana-vrttisu vai nrsu
sudra-prayesu varnesu cchaga-prayasu dhenusu
grha-prayesv asramesu yauna-prayesu bandhusu
By the time the age of Kali ends, the bodies of all creatures will be greatly reduced in size, and the religious principles of followers of varnasrama will be ruined. The path of the Vedas will be completely forgotten in human society, and so-called religion will be mostly atheistic. The kings will mostly be thieves, the occupations of men will be stealing, lying and needless violence, and all the social classes will be reduced to the lowest level of sudras. Cows will be like goats, spiritual hermitages will be no different from mundane houses, and family ties will extend no further than the immediate bonds of marriage.
Swami - May 20, 2005 11:59 pm
SB 12.2.12-14
ksiyamanesu dehesu dehinam kali-dosatah
varnasramavatam dharme nasne veda-pathe nrnam
pasanda-pracure dharme dasyu-prayesu rajasu
cauryanrta-vrtha-himsa-nana-vrttisu vai nrsu
sudra-prayesu varnesu cchaga-prayasu dhenusu
grha-prayesv asramesu yauna-prayesu bandhusu
By the time the age of Kali ends, the bodies of all creatures will be greatly reduced in size, and the religious principles of followers of varnasrama will be ruined. The path of the Vedas will be completely forgotten in human society, and so-called religion will be mostly atheistic. The kings will mostly be thieves, the occupations of men will be stealing, lying and needless violence, and all the social classes will be reduced to the lowest level of sudras. Cows will be like goats, spiritual hermitages will be no different from mundane houses, and family ties will extend no further than the immediate bonds of marriage.
More important than this is what the Bhagavatam has to say about the beginning of kali-yuga. Keep trying. Hint: It has something to do with the speaking of the Bhagavatam itself.
Citta Hari Dasa - May 21, 2005 12:32 am
SB 12.2.3:
dampatye 'bhirucir hetur
mayaiva vyavaharike
stritva pumstve ca hi ratir
vipratve sutram eva hi
Men and women will live together merely because of superficial attraction, and success in business wil depend on deciet. Womanliness and manliness will be judged according to one's expertise in sex, and a man will be known as a brahmana just by his wearing a thread.
Vrindaranya Dasi - May 21, 2005 2:21 pm
SB 1.18 details how the misconception of thinking a brahmana is higher than a devotee marked the beginning of Kali-yuga. The chapter describes how right after the disappearance of Sri Krsna, a brahmana boy cursed the great devotee Maharaja Pariksit.
One of the symptoms of Kali-yuga is the degraded position of the brahmanical class, and this quality is demonstrated in the chapter: although Maharaja Pariksit was a great devotee and thus higher than a brahmana, the brahmana boy did not understand this and cursed him for not showing his father respect. While the incident started Kali-yuga in motion, it also prompted the speaking of the Bhagavatam, which reveals the means for deliverance in the age of Kali, Krsna sankirtana.
This story also shows that when brahmanas, the leaders in the varnasrama society, are corrupt, the whole system becomes corrupt. Therefore, the best means of deliverance in Kali-yuga is taking shelter of the holy name.
Swami - May 22, 2005 5:47 pm
Yes, that is what I was looking for Vrindaranya. The other Bhagavatam quotes were also good, as was Hari Bhakti's citing of the Gita. All of this says that one's varna is determined by one's qualities and activities, not birth. Whereas when birth alone is the determining factor, we have asura varnasrama.
This was prominent during the time of Bhaktivinoda. Thus he told Bhaktisiddhanta to establish the correct conception of varnasrama, in which guna and karma determine one's varna, and which is an inferior religious path to that of Vaisnava dharma also known as Bhagavata dharma. At the time, many people thought differently, thinking that varnasrama's brahmanas was superior to Vaisnavas. Furthermore the same misconception in which birth dismissed one's actual qualifications had overflowed into Vaisnava dharma, and thus in some Gaudiya Vaisnava lineages gurus were determined by birth alone regardless of the qualities or realization. Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati also addressed this.
Seeing the confusion of kali yuga infiltrating the ranks of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, Bhaktisiddhanta also sought to establish daiva varnasrama for Gaudiya Vaisnavas who still had material desires, even though they were on the paramahamsa path that transcended varnasrama. In consideration of this idea of daiva varnasrma, we have three types of varnasrama: the asura varnasrama, then a-daiva varnasrma (ordinary varnasrama) and then daiva varnasrama (varnasrama for Vaisnavas).
More on this daiva varnasarma for devotees later. Jaya Nrsimha Bhagavan Jaya Bhakta Prahlada.
Swami - May 25, 2005 5:09 pm
The idea of Daiva Varnasrama for devotees comes from Bhaktivinoda Thakura and SB 11.20.27-28. These verses state:
“Having awakened faith in the narrations of My glories, being disgusted with all material activities, knowing that all sense gratification leads to misery, but still being unable to renounce all sense enjoyment, My devotee should remain happy and worship Me with great faith and conviction. Even though he is sometimes engaged in sense enjoyment, My devotee knows that all sense gratification leads to a miserable result, and he sincerely repents such activities.”
Thus even though faith in bhakti has awakened making one eligible to tread the paramahamsa marg, upon entering this path one is not immediately freed from material desire. Ordinarily, those with material desire are eligible to follow the karma marg or varnasrama dharma. However, faith in bhakti relieves them of this burden, even while material desires remain.
At the same time these devotees cannot act like paramahamsas. Therefore because they will inevitably be drawn by their material propensities in spite of their faith, let there be an arrangement to engage them accordingly in consideration of bhakti. That then is the idea of Davia Varnasrama for devotees. It was meant to serve as a support for bhakti that would provide a sense of material balance in a society of devotees.
Given the socioreligious culture in which this idea arose, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura organized his disciples into four service groups and four ashrams that were roughly analogous to the divisions of occupation and spiritual status described in varnansrama dharma. For example, those inclined to study, preach, and worship the deity were considered brahmanas in his daiva varnasrama, and only they would take sannyasa. Those inclined toward management would manage the math and organize. Well to do householders were the vaisyas, who funded and built temples. Those who could not follow the practices well and would come and go were the sudras. He grouped his disciples like this while making it clear that Vaisnava dharma was transcendental to varnasrama dharma.
The vision of Bhaktivinoda in this regard and the dynamic attempt to implement it by Bhaktisiddhanta are noteworthy. Through their vision and efforts they provide us with a precedent for emphasizing the need for horizontal support to bring material balance to those involved in the vertical growth that Gaudiya Vaisnavism is ultimately about. Interestingly enough, contemporary spirituality could not agree more. It stresses that vertical spiritual progress, although not dependent on it, is nonetheless facilitated by effort spent on the horizontal development of brining psychological and social balance as well as ethical principles into the life of the practitioner.
We should be proud to be members of the Bhaktivinoda Parivara. Any modern person involved in Gaudiya Vaisnavism will have to realize that they are indebted to Thakura Bhaktivinoda, who envisioned the need to interface our tradition with modernity in order to keep it alive in the world. And we would not know of this vision of Bhaktivinoda were it not for Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and his disciples.
It should be clear that the corruption of Varnasrama Dharma in general that inordinately stressed birth over one’s qualities and activities, overflowed into Gaudiya Vaisnavism as well. Thus in preaching the proper conception of Varnasrama in general, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura also preached against the idea that birth in a particular parivara alone qualified one for being an acarya. This of course led to his conception of the Bhagavata Guru Pramapara that we are about to discuss on another thread.
These are important topics.
Gauravani Dasa - May 25, 2005 8:25 pm
Thank you for that comprehensive post.
Given the socioreligious culture in which this idea arose, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura organized his disciples into four service groups and four ashrams that were roughly analogous to the divisions of occupation and spiritual status described in varnansrama dharma. For example, those inclined to study, preach, and worship the deity were considered brahmanas in his daiva varnasrama, and only they would take sannyasa. Those inclined toward management would manage the math and organize. Well to do householders were the vaisyas, who funded and built temples. Those who could not follow the practices well and would come and go were the sudras. He grouped his disciples like this while making it clear that Vaisnava dharma was transcendental to varnasrama dharma.
Could there be divisions even within the designations of the varnas listed above? For example, a well-to-do householder might make his living as a professor at a university--a brahmincal occupation yet one that supports the funding of the temple, rather than direct preaching that a temple brahmin might engage in.
Vrindaranya Dasi - May 26, 2005 12:05 am
Thank you, Guru Maharaja, for that enlivening, clear overview of Bhaktivinode Thakur's conception of varnasrama. It gives a progressive angle on varnasrama, as opposed to the general presentation, in which varnasrama is an attempt to go back to a perfect society that existed somewhere in the distant past. Your presentation of how daiva varnasrama fits into the paramahamsa marg was also very cogent.
Swami - May 26, 2005 12:54 am
Thank you for that comprehensive post.Could there be divisions even within the designations of the varnas listed above? For example, a well-to-do householder might make his living as a professor at a university--a brahmincal occupation yet one that supports the funding of the temple, rather than direct preaching that a temple brahmin might engage in.
I don't think professors get paid much. Babhru?
Otherwise there are many possibilities.
SashidharaDasa - May 26, 2005 1:11 am
Maharaja thank you very much for the post on DaivaVarnashrama
I remember hearing in BhaktiVedanata Swami Prabhupada's lectures many times that ISKCON's idea is to create more first class people ie more Brahmin class..
How to understand that statement ?
ys
-Sashidhar
Babhru Das - May 26, 2005 4:03 am
It depends on many things, beginning with where they teach. I don't get much; moreover, the work feels much less brahminical in many ways than many might imagine (long story). However, some at big private universities make real money and teach few classes.
Some of us are better off figuring out how we could engage ourselves more in preaching.
Bhakta Ivar - June 1, 2005 11:14 am
Brahminical in the sense of people in touch with brahman, spirit, who base their lives on spirit, and who can lead others towards spiritual understanding. Not necessarily the varna.
Within the ISKCON there had to be a specific brahmin class, a brahmana varna, too. Without a thoroughly developed brahmana class, how can you lead society towards spiritual understanding?
Ivar
SashidharaDasa - June 1, 2005 8:02 pm
Bijaya Kumara Das - June 2, 2005 8:47 am
Thus in preaching the proper conception of Varnasrama in general, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura also preached against the idea that birth in a particular parivara alone qualified one for being an acarya. This of course led to his conception of the Bhagavata Guru Pramapara that we are about to discuss on another thread.
These are important topics.
Thank You Guru Maharaja.
Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura no matter what occupation or varna we were in base engagement of us neophytes on facts and I can not thank Him enough for You or His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada by whos grace we have all come to know one another.
SB 5.18.11 purport
After one’s mind becomes cleansed by chanting Hare Kåñëa, one gradually comes to the platform of Kåñëa consciousness and then reads books like Bhagavad-gétä, Çrémad-Bhägavatam, Caitanya-caritämåta and The Nectar of Devotion. In this way, one becomes more and more purified of material contamination.
As stated in Çrémad-Bhägavatam (1.2.18):
nañöa-präyeñv abhadreñu
nityaà bhägavata-sevayä
bhagavaty uttama-çloke
bhaktir bhavati naiñöhiké
“By regularly hearing the Bhägavatam and rendering service unto the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is practically destroyed, and loving service unto the glorious Lord, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.” In this way, simply by hearing of the powerful activities of the Lord, the devotee’s heart becomes almost completely cleansed of material contamination, and thus his original position as an eternal servant who is part and parcel of the Lord becomes manifest. While the devotee engages in devotional service, the passionate and ignorant modes of material nature are gradually vanquished, and then he acts only in the mode of goodness. At that time he becomes happy and gradually advances in Kåñëa consciousness.
All the great äcäryas strongly recommend that people be given a chance to hear about the Supreme Lord. Then success is assured. The more we cleanse the dirt of material attachment from our hearts, the more we will be attracted by Kåñëa’s name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and activities. This is the sum and substance of the Kåñëa consciousness movement
SB 11.1.5 purport
In India there is a class of men known as nityänanda-vaàça, who claim to be direct descendants of Lord Nityänanda and therefore worthy of the highest respect for their position in devotional service. In this regard, Çréla Prabhupäda has written in The Nectar of Devotion, “In the Middle Ages, after the disappearance of Lord Caitanya’s great associate Lord Nityänanda, a class of priestly persons claimed to be the descendants of Nityänanda, calling themselves the gosvämé caste. They further claimed that the practice and spreading of devotional service belonged only to their particular class, which was known as nityänanda-vaàça. In this way they exercised their artificial power for some time, until Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura, the powerful äcärya of the Gauòéya Vaiñëava sampradäya, completely smashed their idea. There was a great hard struggle for some time, but it has turned out successful, and it is now correctly and practically established that devotional service is not restricted to a particular class of men. Besides that, anyone who is engaged in devotional service is already a high-class brähmaëa. So Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura’s struggle for this movement has come out successful. It is on the basis of his position that anyone, from any part of the universe, can become a Gauòéya Vaiñëava.”
In other words, the essence of spiritual knowledge is that every living being, regardless of his present status in life, is originally a servant of the Supreme Lord, and it is the mission of the Lord to reclaim all of these fallen living entities. Despite his past situation, any living being who is willing to surrender again at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord or His bona fide representative can purify himself by strictly adhering to the rules and regulations of bhakti-yoga and thus act as a high-class brähmaëa. Nonetheless, the seminal descendants of the Lord think themselves to have acquired their ancestor’s character and position. Thus the Supreme Lord, who is the well-wisher of the entire universe and especially of His devotees, bewilders the discriminatory power of His own descendants in such a contradictory way that these seminal descendants become recognized as deviant and the actual qualification to be a representative of the Lord, namely unalloyed surrender to the will of Kåñëa, remains prominent.
hope everyone can handle the diacritics
Gauravani Dasa - June 10, 2005 4:40 pm
I received the following questionaire this morning and thought I would share it with the Tattva-viveka members. I always remember Guru Maharaja's comments on varnasrama from his Gita commentary and in light of this thread, these questions sound rather loaded and archaic:
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*** Please paste this on word document, then you can reply to each question, and afterwards you can forward to e-mail address below. Thank you.
From: Bhakti Raghava Swami
Date: June 9, 2005
To: Selected devotees
Subject: Varnasrama Questionnaire
Please accept the blessings of Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. The following is a series of questions concerning varnasrama dharma. The purpose of this exercise is to gain additional insights and understanding as to how various devotees regard and understand the concept and principles of varnasrama. The long term aim is to help find ways in which devotees can more systematically promote and realize Srila Prabhupada's desire and order to implement varnasrama dharma. The questionnaire may be replied to verbally or in writing. In most cases it will be more practical to respond in writing. If you chose to write your responses, kindly take the necessary time to think about each question before writing the response. If you prefer to tape your responses, please forward document as an attached file using MP3 format.
The materials collected will be shared with other devotees, unless you specify otherwise. You may reply as briefly or as elaborately as you desire. There will be another Questionnaire seeking specific information about the varnasrama project in which you are presently involved. The title of that Questionnaire is PROJECT PROFILE. The purpose is to collect useful information on existing Varnasrama community projects in different parts of the world so that devotees may know more about your activities. If you already have all your information available on a Website, I will appreciate knowing your URL. I thank you for your kind participation in replying to the Questionnaire.
Trusting this finds you well.
Your servant,
Bhakti Raghava Swami
* Please forward your replies to my e-mail address at bhakti.raghava.swami@pamho.net
VARNASRAMA QUESTIONNAIRE
1. How, when, why and where did you become involved with Krishna consciousness?
2. How, when, why and where did you become interested in varnasrama?
3. What is your specific interest and present involvement with varnasrama?
4. Most devotees live in the cities. How to attract them to rural life? Or can they lead a varnasrama lifestyle in the cities?
5. According to you, what are some of the most crucial aspects for the proper systematic development of varnasrama?
6. What are your realizations on cow protection and how involved are you in protecting cows?
7. How would you rate ISKCON's concern for varnasrama on a scale 1 to 10, number 10 showing the highest concern?
8. How would you rate ISKCON's concern for cows on the same scale?
9. How practical is varnasrama in our modern world?
10. What are some of your realizations since being involved with varnasrama?
11. Which areas need most attention in helping establish varnasrama?
12. What are your understanding, interest and involvement in varnasrama education?
13. What is the most difficult thing about a varnasrama lifestyle?
14. What is the most pleasing thing about a varnasrama lifestyle?
15. Should a women's role be primarily that of a housewife, or should they be allowed to take up some careers or professions outside the home?
16. What is your view on compulsory education?
17. Do you have any suggestions for persons who may be interested to start a varnasrama community?
18. What are your thoughts about introducing the sacred thread for those who fit more in the category of ksatriyas and vaisyas?
19. In which way our brahmanas and sannyasis should be more involved with varnasrama development?
20. Any additional comments?
Citta Hari Dasa - June 10, 2005 5:00 pm
Loaded and archaic indeed. I doubt the maharaja would like to hear our answers to his questions.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - June 10, 2005 6:27 pm
promote and realize Srila Prabhupada's desire and order to implement varnasrama dharma
Did Srila Prabhupada really give an order to implement varnasrama? Another question would be what did he mean by varnasrama? Did ISKCON understood his directions correctly?
Bijaya Kumara Das - June 12, 2005 10:29 pm
Did Srila Prabhupada really give an order to implement varnasrama?
The only thing I remember about this is that we were told to become self sufficent as possible and to free up our dependence on outside sources allowing us to engage in more Krsna concious activities. The milk and food at that time in america was all polluted and most still is with additives and non vedic substances.
His Divine Graces solution was to produce our own food for a vedic life style as well as educate our own childern in the vedic culture where possible. Simple living and high thinking.
He wanted us to be an example to the world as to the right way to be engaged as human beings and try to help make more citizens Krsna concious. The example he always used was India the brain and USA the legs then the world would stand a chance of not coming to the brink of distruction.
You can veiw a poem at the Berekley Temple left of the alter to get a better understanding of the time and circumstances. The cold war was clearly happening then and some of the tention in the world has subsided, but seems to again be picking up.