Tattva-viveka
cancer and sadhus etc....
Haridas.bts - June 15, 2005 4:27 pm
i wanted to be a bit more specific about this topic in relation to my nama Guru-Sripad Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja and any bonafide sadhu that contracts illness.
Firstly, an elevated sadhu does not get sick in the same way as a neophyte or conditioned soul does. He takes on karma from others and also Krsna will make such a vaisnava sick to speed up their return back to Godhead.
BTSwami tried many things and his disciples who care for him have looked into all alternatives to cancer treatment including the hulda clark method. While the hulda clark method has worked for some it has NOT worked for all. There is no big cure for all diseases in the material world. If there were then there would be a bigger scarcity of sickness. Sridhar Maharaja (SP disciple) also tried hulda clarkes treatments for his hepatitis and it did NOT work, amongst other methods.
Personally speaking, i was getting treatment from someone a while back who was wellversed in the clarke method and i had disasterous results. My wife and i undertook a programme of zapping, and cleansing using various herbal potions and cleanses from the h clarke school of thought.
We started with a colon cleanse which proceeded to give me heamaroids(piles) and then a kidney and parasite cleanse which proceeded to give me serious bruising and tenderness around the kidney areas.
All these regimes were accompanied by "zapping"
This was over 2 years ago and i still have the heamaroids and it has got worse to the extent that i again went to the allopathic doctor for examination and they have arranged for me to have an examination due to suspect colonic cancer or at the very least ulcers in that most unfortunate and delicate place.
If the clarke methods work for some that is great but i would strongly advise against telling one and all that it is THE CURE to beat all cures. If it were then 100% would be success stories and there are others who have actually DIED after being reccomended to stop alopathic stuff and adopt the clarke method, but i doubt these would be advertised by those who are making money by this method.
I suspect that these are some of the reasons why BTS didnt go for this treatment due to some danger involved.
Plus also please remember that BTS made a prayer before he got the cancer which resulted in him getting it in the first place-a prayer that he might take on some of our stuff himself to make our lives easier.
Any day now we expect his departure- daily updates are on www.btswami.com if anyone is interested in following his last days.
The only cure for all diseases is Krsna consciousness via Nama bhajan and sankirtan and a good dose of Maha Prasad, nothing else is going to work and if we think like this then this is part of our illusion and bodily consciousness. If we are going to get sick, we will get sick if it be the desire of the Lord, and we will get well if it be His desire also.
Ultimatly our biggest disease is the false ego and vaisnava aparadha, we would do well to take the cure of the holy name and rely on Krsna to guide us via guru back to Godhead, there is no need to continue in the body unecesarrily, in fact if we are given a time limit then it might put us in the desired state of urgency needed to drop all attachments and develop our needed love of god.
hope u r all well
hari
Bhakta Ivar - June 16, 2005 8:53 am
There are spiritual reasons for everyone getting sick, not just the sadhus or paramahamsas. The notions that saints take on the karma of others or that God makes saints sick so that they return to him quicker may be true, but we cannot be sure they are. I guess they are a matter of faith.
Although there may be spiritual reasons for sickness, one will always find physical causes as well, and may try to find out what those causes are so that the body can be cured, unless permanent damage has been done. Maharaja has both tried to cure the disease, with regular and alternative methods, and at the same time surrendered himself fully to Krishna. Indeed, for some diseases just cannot be cured. Everyone has his destined longevity.
Ivar
Bhakta Ivar - June 16, 2005 11:10 am
> in fact if we are given a time limit then it might put us in the desired state of urgency needed to drop all attachments and develop our needed love of god.
Can love of God be developed in that way? I doubt it. Spiritual growth is a gradual process, as gradual as the orbit of a planet, the circle that starts with incarnation and ends with excarnation, from bondage to salvation, from ignorance to illumination. One cannot skip a degree or minute of that circle. It cannot be forced by fear or a deadline.
The human body seems to be designed to live 120 years. This is the view of the Indian sages who developed the astrological Vimshottari dasha system, and also the view of the Life Extension movement. Thus one could say that this is God’s design, and if it’s His design then this is His desire. It’s not God’s desire that we die at an early age.
Ancient Indian rishis lived much more natural lives than present day spiritualists. Yet we become surprised when saints become sick or die early. Even if they never ate excessive saturated fats or refined sugar in their lives (mahaprasada or otherwise), they too have lived in an unhealthy atmosphere, inhaling exhaust fumes or toxins found in unnatural building materials. It’s practically unavoidable. Something should be done about this, because what’s the use of spiritual education if all those who have grasped the science die at a premature age? Those who have realized spiritual truths should stay with us as long as possible, so everyone can benefit from their presence.
What I mean is that the time limit doesn’t necessarily come from God. Indeed it’s against the natural design of God! Of course, “not a blade of grass moves without the will of God”, but we should keep in mind how the universe, how life on Mother Earth, is supposed to function. God may have allowed the mess we have created, but did He desire it?
The brahmana cast should figure out ways to restore the natural ways, thus serving as an example for the rest of human society. In that sense developing ecovillages should be regarded as a great service, a direct service to God.
Hmm, I’m rambling.
Ivar
Haridas.bts - June 16, 2005 11:16 am
hari-> in fact if we are given a time limit then it might put us in the desired state of urgency needed to drop all attachments and develop our needed love of god.
ivar-Can love of God be developed in that way? I doubt it. Spiritual growth is a gradual process, as gradual as the orbit of a planet, the circle that starts with incarnation and ends with excarnation, from bondage to salvation, from ignorance to illumination. One cannot skip a degree or minute of that circle. It cannot be forced by fear or a deadline
hari-are you forgetting the example of maharaja pariksit? 7 days to live?
sometimes a sense of urgency is needed to let go of the bodily concept of life-BTswami has said many times that sickness can help us advance dramatically.
his words not mine
Bhakta Ivar - June 18, 2005 8:57 am
Bhakta Ivar - June 18, 2005 9:00 am
The benefits of sickness and the time limit will come to all of us, when the body is really old and worn out. They don't have to come at an early age though.
Ivar
Haridas.bts - June 18, 2005 9:21 am
ivar
you are totally missing the point
just last night i was reading BTSwamis latest book entitled "die before dying"
wherein he clearly stated that the cancer has forced him to look deeper into what anarthas/ attachments are still left and eradicate them. Obviously he is also being humble, but we have to remember that ilness for devotees is minimal-as it is only token karma.
So, what is suppossed to come to us will and there is nothing we can do about it.
However, we can try to take treatments and if it is our destiny we will recover and if not-then boom, we are incapacitated or have to leave the body.
You keep talking about "gradual" growth, where are you getting this from? We are to expediently and efficiently try to advance as quickly as possible to go back to Godhead. Admittedly, some may be on the slow track and some on the fast and some in between, but the longer we prolong full saranagati/ self surrender then the longer we will stay in this world.
We have to have the mindset that we are trying to go back to Goloka, this means that both our feet should not be in the material world-rather one in it and one out of it or at least gazing towards the trancendental direction. I get the impression that both your feet are seriously grounded in the material world and you are not yet convinced that this is a place of adyatmika, adhidaivika and adhibautika or the 3 fold miseries of which sickness is one of them.
I have never read in any sastra or vaisnava book that we are to be healthy and live a long life- to the contrary, health and prosperity can be a curse for the prakrta bhakta as he/ she will most likely be complacent and wish to stay on this plane. If you have this idea please back it up with quotes etc....
if you cannot then please think about what you are proposing.
I hope you can read Bhagavad Gita and Sri Isopanisad- everything i am saying can be backed up from these 2 sastras-reading should be a daily thing after all
ys
hari
Bhakta Ivar - June 18, 2005 10:35 am
> sometimes a sense of urgency is needed to let go of the bodily concept of life-
That’s my point. It may help you let go of the bodily concept of life, but can it give understanding or love of God? Can it evolve you on all the required levels? Can it teach you all the lessons you need to learn on Earth? No. Indeed, sickness may not even be that helpful to get rid of the bodily concept of life, because pain is constantly influencing the nervous system, bringing the attention back to the body. You may have problems getting enough sleep, making you inattentive during reading and hearing. When your nose and throat are filled with mucus, how will you chant? When there’s a tumour in you brain, how will you perceive reality?
Yes, we are not this body, but how intricately linked is the body and our consciousness! Maybe a broken nail will not influence perception, but what about ADHD, dementia or a coma?
Pain and suffering may encourage a desire for freedom from birth and death, a desire for moksha, but that is a negative thing, not a positive.
> BTswami has said many times that sickness can help us advance dramatically.
> his words not mine
Although they are his words and not yours, I still have a slightly different view, which may or may not be correct. There are examples of devotees (in recent times) who got ill at an early age, and we have seen how absorbed they became in chanting, how their character changed etc. We see dramatic changes in behaviour, indeed. But the question remains: what if they had lived another 50 or 70 years, how absorbed would they have been then? And another question might be: yes, they were actively engaged in sadhana, but did they attain the highest levels of bhakti and leave the cycle of birth and death, or has their intense absorption given them an auspicious rebirth? And what would have happened if they had simply lived another 50 or 70 years? Might they have achieved that goal in that single lifetime?
There are quite a few examples of devotees (and sannyasis) who had been undergoing intense pain for years, but still couldn’t get rid of the bodily concept of life and fell down. (Some “fell up” because they realized they were in the wrong situation, but that’s another issue.)
The reason why I started studying alternative medicine in 1995 was because I had come to the realization that practically every senior devotee in ISKCON was complaining about severe chronic pains (backpain, headaches), diseases or indigestion. Lectures by senior preachers were canceled, or they couldn’t attend the programs. As I soon found out it wasn’t simply their past austerities or the karma of disciples that were to blame. And certainly it wasn’t Krishna speading up the process.
However, if one wishes to preach or believe that, one is free to do so.
Ivar
Bhakta Ivar - June 18, 2005 12:14 pm
> if you cannot then please think about wat you are proposing.
Indeed, I’m proposing that one should not base one’s thinking on quotes and slokas alone. Clinging to the past, to what others say or have said, is like living in the reflected light of the Moon. The source of that light, the Sun, is much brighter. The Moon has important qualities, but how much more important is the Sun? And how will one understand the Moon unless one knows the Sun? One must learn to think and experience for oneself (as the authors of the slokas have done), and if one can’t, at least not criticize those who (try to) do.
> You keep talking about "gradual" growth, where are you getting this from?
From experience. Think deeply about the matter, and you will understand what I mean.
> the longer we prolong full saranagati/ self surrender then the longer we will stay in this world.
God doesn’t have to force us into surrender. Illness, pain and death cannot stimulate the loving surrender that is required. But yes, one has to make a personal endeavor. But even when one makes a very concentrated effort, it will still be a gradual process.
> I get the impression that both your feet are seriously grounded in the material world
I don’t think you understand my feet. Let’s just say I allow them to be where I feel they will not slip. And they are on some kind of staircase, so I’m careful.
> and you are not yet convinced that this is a place of adyatmika, adhidaivika and adhibautika or the 3 fold miseries of which sickness is one of them.
Well, you are not correct in that regard. I’m well aware of the kleshas.
> I have never read in any sastra or vaisnava book that we are to be healthy and live a long life-
Why would you need to read such an obvious and natural thing in the sastras? No, it’s not the goal to become very old, nor am I saying that this is the goal of life. I’m simply saying that premature death serves no purpose, and that the apparent benefits of disease do not weigh up against a long life of spiritual progress, in a body and nervous system that functions properly.
> to the contrary, health and prosperity can be a curse for the prakrta bhakta as he/ she will most likely be complacent and wish to stay on this plane.
Prosperity is not under discussion. You seem to be translating a scripture here, but it doesn’t remind me of any. Would you please mention where it comes from? Are you perhaps translating a word that means “bodily comfort” as “health”?
I think there’s one sloka (from an upanishad, possibly Isa, but it could also be the concluding verses of Brahma-samhita) where the author says: “In this way (with the spiritual mindset described in the previous slokas) one may strive to live a hundred years and then attain the supreme abode.” I’ll see if I can find it.
Ivar
Madangopal - June 18, 2005 3:16 pm
Sorry to get into what seems to be becoming a private dispute here...
You are both intelligent persons with valid arguments coming from each of you. However, it seems you should not be in this conversation together. Ivar, I think I understand your points, but someone in Haridasa's position (guru leaving cancer-ridden body) is not going to be a receptive person - there is too much emotion involved, naturally.
Two quotes (one from that great section of Bhagavatam that Guru Maharaj keeps quoting) that demonstrate the validity of both of your arguments:
One for Ivar!
kāmasya nendriya-prītir
lābho jīveta yāvatā
jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā
nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ
Life's desires should never be directed toward sense gratification. One should desire only a healthy life, or self-preservation, since a human being is meant for inquiry about the Absolute Truth. Nothing else should be the goal of one's works.
And here's one for Haridasa!
anarthopaśamaḿ sākṣād
bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
lokasyājānato vidvāḿś
cakre sātvata-saḿhitām
The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth.
So, self preservation and ultimate realization often contradict eachother. Be nice!!! 
Syamasundara - June 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Well, many thoughts come to mind.
Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Kunti Devi both seem to welcome distress, as it does spur one to focus on the transcendental reality, both out of a desire to end pain, and out of remembering that we don't belong in this realm of pain.
Others could say that the body is a temple of the Paramatma, or a god-given instrument to exhaust our karma, based on our desires (guna) and our activities (karma), but it doesn't belong to us, like any of the material ingredients that constitute it. Therefore we should maintain it well and engage it in relation to he who did create the ingredients and anything else.
I think there is some scope for Ivar's point that if you have a mission as an acarya, it kind of helps if you have a body that won't fall apart. At the same time, a devotee who is as advanced as an acarya is under the influence of Svarupa sakti, ehatever happens to him.
My reaction to hearing that a devotee should welcome distress, as a healthy life would fuel his enjoying spirit is: What kind of devotee is that?
When the scriputures refer to devotees they mean pure devotees. At the same time, when we say mango, we think of the ripe fruit, but a green mango is still called a mango.
So maybe those statements are for those devotees, who are on the path but not quite there.
So, if one is a devotee in the full sense, he really doesn't care if he's healthy, unhealthy, poor, rich or whatever. His focus is somewhere else, and the wind that blows into his sails comes from the same place.
And if someone is a neophyte, all he should really invest on should be his relation with mantra and guru, because if he does, shold he be blessed with a long healthy life, he won't take advantage of it to indulge in material pleasures, and should he be "blessed" with a short or distressed life, he will know what to do, like Pariksit maharaja.
Audarya-lila Dasa - June 18, 2005 4:24 pm
The thing is - if we think about any condition we find ourselves in there is usually a good scientific, or material explanation. That doesn't negate the fact that karma is playing itself out. It is not a fact that because we can see a material cause that there is therefore no spiritual cause for an action or circumstance.
From a spirtual prespective and a material perspective there is really nothing healthy about being encaged in a body that has built in obsolesence. Materialists are busy trying to find ways to extend the duration of their bodily confinement and to improve it's overall 'health'. That is not to say that spiritualists shouldn't take care of their bodies or be involved in enterprises that help alleviate suffering - it's just that the focus of a spiritualist is ultimately on spirit and finding a solution to the bodily predicament altogether.
The irony of this discussion for me at least is that in a healthy state there is no doubt that sadhana can be more focused, but so also can be more easily get involved with the world and our relationship to it. In a state of mental or physical imbalance it is certainly much more difficult to focus on sadhana. When the mind is perturbed it is so much harder to focus and when the body isn't cooperating it is quite difficult to engage ourselves steadily in bhakti sadhana. The ideal situation is to live a balanced and healthy life in the association of sadhus who inspire us to keep our attention on the goal and help us to focus on our sadhana.
At the end of the day - whatever impetus causes us to go deeper into our spiritual life and become more introspective about where we are and seriously endeavoring to progress - I consider that to be directly Krsna's blessing.
Haridas.bts - June 20, 2005 10:52 am
okay, i am going to respectfully vanish from this discussion as i do not wish to have arguments and thereby contaminating a nice discussion forum. Everyone has a right to express themselves as long as their "opinion" is based on guru sadhu and sastra, if it is not then it is mere speculation only.
Our opinions are indeed invalid if that is all they are. My "opinions" as far i can percieve with my limited understand from 15 years trying to be a devotee, hearing from souls more advanced than me,obeserving their behavior and reading the books are sound and not mimising the siddhanta. I am also trying to represent the school of thought that my nama Guru BTSwami has shared recently in recent books and lectures.
I conclude finally by answering Ivars last reply and thank you to everyone who has requested that things become peaceful.
I do not know Ivar, so i cannot judge him personally, nor do i wish to do so-he seems sincere enough but I only wrote out of concern that i personally feel that he doesnt understand the basics of the sidhhanta i.e the world is a place of suffering, Krsna is the controller, we have misuded our free will and sickness is not really something we should control etc......
below is my replies:
-IVAR-That’s my point. It may help you let go of the bodily concept of life, but can it give understanding or love of God? Can it evolve you on all the required levels? Can it teach you all the lessons you need to learn on Earth? No. Indeed, sickness may not even be that helpful to get rid of the bodily concept of life, because pain is constantly influencing the nervous system, bringing the attention back to the body. You may have problems getting enough sleep, making you inattentive during reading and hearing. When your nose and throat are filled with mucus, how will you chant? When there’s a tumour in you brain, how will you perceive reality?
-HARI-Sickness CAN help you let go of the bodily concept of life, to start with it can make you DISGUSTED with the body and all its problems. It doesnt have to take old age to do so. Sickness will NOT give you love of God, but it can be the CATALIST to help one make a change internally to TRY HARDER to achieve such.
If we study the teachings of Queen Kunti we will see that her life was full of problems and as such it made her TURN TO KRSNA AS HER ONLY SHELTER, due to ignorance we take more shelter of the body than we need and health for most kanisthas will be something that has the POTENTIAL to make us feel happy with the body.
-IVOR-Yes, we are not this body, but how intricately linked is the body and our consciousness! Maybe a broken nail will not influence perception, but what about ADHD, dementia or a coma?
Pain and suffering may encourage a desire for freedom from birth and death, a desire for moksha, but that is a negative thing, not a positive.
-HARI-It requires negative experiences from this material world and body to make us disgusted and realise that we need out of here, if we had positive experiences all the time then we WOULD BE MORE POSITIVE ABOUT THE BODY AND THE WORLD IN WHICH IT INHABITS.
-IVAR-Although they are his words and not yours, I still have a slightly different view, which may or may not be correct.
-HARI- sadhu satra and guru are our guidlines, you admit that your view/opinion may or may not be correct so that is a sign of uncertainty- we SHOULD BE CERTAIN BEFORE MAKING A STATEMENT IN ISTHAGOTHI STATEMENTS OR PREACHING OTHERWISE WE RUN THE RISK OF SPECULATING AND MISREPRESENTING THE SIDDHANTA. His words not mine, his view therefore mine, this is what a disciple has to do-abandon his own thoughts and adopt the mindsets that are healthy for him. our free thinking can and usually does get us into trouble. this is a very serious issue
-IVOR- There are examples of devotees (in recent times) who got ill at an early age, and we have seen how absorbed they became in chanting, how their character changed etc. We see dramatic changes in behaviour, indeed. But the question remains: what if they had lived another 50 or 70 years, how absorbed would they have been then? And another question might be: yes, they were actively engaged in sadhana, but did they attain the highest levels of bhakti and leave the cycle of birth and death, or has their intense absorption given them an auspicious rebirth? And what would have happened if they had simply lived another 50 or 70 years? Might they have achieved that goal in that single lifetime?
There are quite a few examples of devotees (and sannyasis) who had been undergoing intense pain for years, but still couldn’t get rid of the bodily concept of life and fell down. (Some “fell up” because they realized they were in the wrong situation, but that’s another issue.)
The reason why I started studying alternative medicine in 1995 was because I had come to the realization that practically every senior devotee in ISKCON was complaining about severe chronic pains (backpain, headaches), diseases or indigestion. Lectures by senior preachers were canceled, or they couldn’t attend the programs. As I soon found out it wasn’t simply their past austerities or the karma of disciples that were to blame. And certainly it wasn’t Krishna speading up the process.
However, if one wishes to preach or believe that, one is free to do so.
-HARI- i think i have said enough above, i do not need to comment on the rest as it is detracting from the original point. I wish ivor all the best in his kc and apologise if anyone including ivor is upset at my tone or insistency
ys
hari
Ivar
Bhakta Ivar - June 21, 2005 12:16 pm
Dear Hari,
In your letter you have told us you will vanish from this discussion. You don’t have to as far as I’m concerned. We can discuss this topic and still be peaceful. I do respect your choice to withdraw. But since you have not done so yet (rather than silently withdrawing you have made many new comments) the discussion will continue.
You have expressed yourself the way a devotee tends to express himself. Indeed it’s the way I used to express myself, if you can imagine that! I’m very familiar with the Teachings of Queen Kunti, because I translated it into Dutch (I worked for the BBT), listened to all the original lectures of Srila Prabhupada, learnt the slokas by heart and sang them during the day for many months. I also had a tape with Srila Prabhupada’s favorite Srimad-Bhagavatam slokas (containing the two verses quoted by Madan Gopal) which I listened to constantly. As far as the basic knowledge of the difference between the body and spirit is concerned, I didn’t count, but I must have heard or recited every sloka of Bhagavad-gita (Dutch, English or Sanskrit) somewhere between 1000 and 2000 times. I translated it once. I know a bit about detachment due to my being a brahmacari from age 18 till 24. You know how it goes: scholar meets scholar and he gets married.
You are not making me angry or irritated. It feels like I’m discussing all these topics with myself. The discussion helps me get more clarity on these issues, and thus I’m thankful. I’m not trying to convince you of anything.
Now I would like to discuss some of the topics in your last reply.
> “…the basics of the siddhanta i.e. the world is a place of suffering, Krsna is the controller, we have misused our free will and sickness is not really something we should control.”
I agree that the first three points belong to the core of Vaisnava siddhanta. It’s not hard to find slokas supporting these statements. The fourth point can be discussed. There are scriptures dealing with health, there were physicians in Caitanya lila etc. Krsna states in Bhagavad-gita that one should not eat too much or too little. We could say that this refers to the amount of food in general, but it also describes the orthomolecular viewpoint perfectly. Orthomolecular means “the right amount of nutrients.” A few hundred years ago we had no knowledge of nutrients (vitamins, minerals, amino and fatty acids), but now that knowledge is available. Using our free will to obey Krsna’s command, we have to make sure we don’t eat too much or too little. That may mean taking food supplements, like vitamin C, and avoiding harmful substances like saturated fats. If you don’t, eventually certain organs and systems will become weak and diseased. When that happens, it is not Krsna speading up the process, but failure to combine ancient teachings (the Gita) with modern knowledge. It is our choice to focus on sadhana and scripture exclusively, which is OK, as long as we also take responsibility for the results.
Indeed, there are several if not unlimited levels of reality, and thus one could also look at disease as a stimulus for spiritual life. I’m quite hesitant to simply take examples from Puranas to understand situations in our life. In the first place because there are quite a few mythological characters in them, or hystorical persons with added features, in the second place because the situations they are in serve the storyline (which in turn allows the characters to discuss philosophy and theology, or display certain qualities like surrender, devotion, tolerance etc.), and in the third place because suffering, pain and difficulty in the life of eternal associates of the Lord cannot be compared with ours, because our lives have different purposes.
> “Sickness CAN help you let go of the bodily concept of life, to start with it can make you DISGUSTED with the body and all its problems.”
A very important point to discuss: if one’s body has problems, can one become disgusted with physical existence in general?
Let’s think about it. What happens when you have chronic pain in the back, and you see dancers on stage? Your consciousness is presented with two versions of the human body: one with pain and limited movement, and one that is flexible and expresses joy. You may be disgusted with your own situation, and you may intellectually have your thoughts about the dancer, but what happens on the emotional level? You will feel some jealousy: “I wish I could move like that.”
The same with a bad relationship. You may think that a bad marriage helps you become detached from women (or men), but what happens when you see a smiling couple holding hands, or hear of a couple that has been happily together for 50 years? Again, the disgust cannot be applied to all versions of the subject. That’s why Krsna basically says that becoming disgusted is not very useful, because only a higher taste can make the mind detached. You must experience a spiritual pleasure that is higher than the best emotional, physical and sexual pleasure.
When one reaches those stages one will not feel disgusted about the discomforts of the body, no, one will feel disgusted about the positive experiences of the body: yadavadhi mama ceta krsnapadaravindam, “whenever I think of intercourse with a woman, I spit at the thought.” Pleasure, health, wealth, all these things will become insignificant. But don’t try to imitate such disgust, because the only thing you can do is feel disgusted about the negative, about which the entire world feels disgusted: pain and disease. Remember what Krsna said: they come and they go. When you base your detachment and renunciation on such temporary things, it can easily be shaken. But what do you need to attain a higher taste? Well, in the first place you need a properly functioning nervous system so you can investigate the truth, so you can have direct experiences of enlightenment. And that’s why I say that (aspiring for) perfect health is not contrary to the goals of a Vaisnava.
Manasa deha geha, but what are you going to offer? I say offer Him the best body you can. Find out how, and do it.
> “It doesn’t take old age to do so [feel disgusted].”
Old age is not the factor, a long life of study, life experiences and prayer is the factor. An example. Every student has, say, 6 years to prepare for the final exams. Let’s say you are one of those students and you’re in your second year. Everyone is studying a bit, but since exams are still far away, there is also time for different types of relaxation. Now the principle comes up to you and tells you that you need to pass for these exams by the end of that year. You’re going to change your lifestyle! You will stop hanging out with friends, and study with an unimaginable intensity. It’s the catalyst you mentioned. By the end of the year you know so much more than your friends, and you’re so focused on your goal. But the question remains: will you be able to pass for that exam? Do you have a greater chance of passing for that exam than your friends?
Of course there are always some talented students who skip some years and pass for their exams. They can be compared to some of the exalted Vaisnavas who died at an early age. But they are the exceptions, not the examples.
> “If we had positive experiences all the time then we would be more positive about the body and the world in which it inhabits.”
Rupa and Sanatana Goswami gave up a life or plenty, and when they got sick or desired suicide, the Lord cured them and ordered them to take good care of their bodies. Arjuna was a wealthy prince with, we can imagine, a well developed muscular physique. Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaj was a handsome man. We have seen pictures of the young Swami Tripurari, a very attractive young man. Srila Prabhupada recruited many attractive, healthy and wealthy men and women.
I agree that “positive experiences all the time” might be a hindrance to spiritual growth. But there are difficult times for everyone, without exception. Mars, Saturn, Rahu, Ketu and Pluto will regularly influence sensitive points in our birthchart.
> “Sadhu sastra and guru are our guidelines,…”
Agreed, guidelines.
> “…you admit that your view/opinion may or may not be correct so that is a sign of uncertainty”
Yes, and more than that it’s a sign of humility. Especially on relative issues we should not think we know all the answers. And when we talk about the motives of God (“Krsna is speading up the process”) we must be even more careful!
> “we SHOULD BE CERTAIN BEFORE MAKING A STATEMENT…”
A statement, yes, but a point of view, a thought, an opinion may always be expressed. And as far as being certain is concerned, you are not certain of the ultimate truth of your views, only certain that they were spoken by one or more of these three: guru, sadhu and sastra.
> “OTHERWISE WE RUN THE RISK OF MISREPRESENTING THE SIDDHANTA.”
The siddhanta consists of sambandha, abhideya and prayojana. I don’t think we’re really discussing the siddhanta here, rather side issues, perhaps indirectly linked with abhideya, but there’s not much chance of creating a heresy.
> “…this is what a disciple is supposed to do – abandon his own thoughts and adopt the mindsets that are healthy for him.”
I would like to know which sastra suggests this idea. Are you aware that there are different ways we can change our thoughts and mindsets? Abandon our own thoughts, is that really necessary? Adopt a mindset, sounds scary to me. Now we’re coming to the issue of psychological health, which is even more closely linked to spirituality. The guru will inspire you to think better, help you develop a healthy mindset. You must understand his words, not simply repeat them. He must encourage you to discover the same truths that he has discovered. We must critically examine whatever truth is spoken to us, either by guru, sadhu or sastra, even by Krishna whispering something into your ear. God has not given you a brain to forego its use.
Again, I may be wrong on any of the above points. “This is my truth, tell me yours.”
Ivar