How gradual is spiritual growth? To what extent can we or circumstances influence it?
In another discussion I have expressed my view that spiritual growth is a gradual process “as gradual as the orbit of a planet, the circle that starts with incarnation and ends with excarnation, from bondage to salvation, from ignorance to illumination. One cannot skip a degree or minute of that circle. It cannot be forced by fear or a deadline.”
It’s my experience that I have grown as an individual throughout life, i.e. before I was a brahmacari, while I was a brahmacari and after I was a brahmacari (with brahmacari I mean one who is engaged fully in sravanam kirtanam arcanam vandanam etc.). But perhaps my perception is not that relevant.
Let’s assume that spiritual growth is a continuous process, at least from the point of complete bondage to the point of complete liberation. If we look at things that grow continuously, we see that they do so gradually. Trees are organisms that continually grow, and they do so gradually, albeit related to the seasons (which are a steady cycle too). Scientists believe the universe is gradually expanding. From midnight till midday the sunlight gradually increases, from midwinter till midsummer the days gradually become longer, from Amavasya till Purnima the Moon gradually becomes brighter. So the question is, why would it be any different for the soul?
The soul is by nature spiritual, yet it has identified itself with matter. It has moved from spirit to matter, gradually like the decrease of light from midday till midnight. It’s the phase of incarnation, of bondage. And just like there’s a point where darkness is at it’s maximum, there must be a point where one is as bound as one can be, as immersed in the flesh or identified with matter as a soul can become. It’s at this point, the 180th degree of the circle, that the process turns the other way, i.e. the phase of excarnation, of liberation. Preaching about liberation to one who’s still at 175 degrees will not be effective, nor will the lifestyle which belongs to one at 355 degrees be useful for one who’s at 185 degrees. This is what I meant when I said “one cannot skip a degree or minute of that circle”.
Everyone is at a different level of spiritual advancement. Those who are at a similar level tend to form groups, will institute religions, speak and write about their realizations. Their level makes them act, speak and pray in certain ways. Often those at lower levels think that if they act, speak and pray in the same way, and hear or read about their realizations, they too will reach those levels. That’s turning things around, and will not work. Those who truly have achieved those levels, will speak and write their own words, act spontaneously according to God’s will, address Him with their own prayers in their own language.
Hermann Hesse has written about this in Siddhartha. Siddhartha had been in search of truth throughout his life, and had left his home to live in the woods with his friend Govinda. There they heard about Gautama Buddha, and they went to see him. When they met him, Siddhartha understood that the Buddha had attained spiritual illumination, but couldn’t comprehend why his followers all acted and prayed like him, as if by imitation one can attain the same goal.
There are 26 qualities a pure devotee, or perfected soul, naturally displays. So when we attain enlightenment, these qualities will manifest. But if we try to manifest these qualities, will we attain enlightenment?
In ISKCON we see a very strong tendency to stress the externals of yoga. Many feel that the way to perfection lies in dressing, acting, speaking, praying and preaching the way Srila Prabhupada did. The goal of spiritual perfection is so much identified with the Acarya that one cannot comprehend a perfected being acting or speaking in any way different from him. They do not even recognize the high levels of some of his Godbrothers, simply because they didn’t preach as boldly as he did.
I believe it’s not spiritual organizations which stimulate one’s spiritual consciousness. Rather those whose consciousness attains certain levels of spiritual longing will feel comfortable, at home, in such spiritual organizations, if there are any around. The right organization will of course facilitate continued growth. Thus we see that Srila Sridhar Maharaj felt a strong attraction to scriptural study, Rama-lila, philosophical inquiry and even celibacy before he encountered the Gaudiya Matha. Srila Prabhupada had also been drawn to spiritual life before he met Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur.
Thus it is one’s level of spiritual growth which attracts certain books, teachers and groups into one’s life. Having experienced the deepest levels of bondage, one increasingly desires the opposite, i.e. illumination. That desire attracts light (truth), and as the light increases, so does one’s desire. Yet still in a gradual way. We’re talking bahunam janmanam here. From the Great Midwinter till the Great Midsummer. We cannot “practice being eager”, “develop spiritual greed”, because even if we externally try to do so, it will not be real (sahajya). One desires or one does not. If the desire is not there, one probably still has some “less exciting” lessons to learn in the areas of human relationships, responsibility, realism etc.
When one has learnt one’s lessons, realization of the truth, of higher and higher truths, will come naturally, with or without external effort. One will personally perceive the truth, not the truth reflected in the words of someone else. One will see the brilliant Sun, the Source, not it’s reflected light on the rugged surface of the Moon. One will recognize the truth in the words of others, as expressed in ancient and modern scriptures, but will always view life in the light of the Sun itself, the Source, the Supersoul in one’s heart. Such a person does not repeat scripture like a parrot, but speaks inspired words, straight from the Source of all knowledge, expressed through his own language and vocabulary. As Bhaktivinoda Thakura described the dilemma of Vyasadeva, wherein he expressed Vyasa’s thoughts thus:
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The peace of his conscience did not sanction his labors. It told him from inside, "No, Vyasa! You can't rest contented with the erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages of bygone days! You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store of truth from which the former sages drew their wealth. Go! Go up to the fountainhead of truth, where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any kind. Vyasa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have all been advised to do so.
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Ivar
I have a couple of comments.
How gradual is spiritual growth? To what extent can we or circumstances influence it?
It sound like you are assuming that spiritual growth is pretty much automatic like movement of the planet or expanding universe. You are assuming that soul goes through evolutionary stages and spiritually growing. I’m not sure it’s correct; soul is perfect to start with, it’s just bewildered by maya. Spiritual growth is not an automatic thing, for example because of the anarthas it can digress. I would probably compare it to an adult with attention deficit disorder -- deep down he knows what he has to do, but he is always distracted by little things surrounding him, so he cannot finish his job or finish anything in this matter. He is very frustrated and finally understands that he needs professional help. The doctor will give him a prescription or some concentration exercises, etc, but ultimately its patient’s responsibility to cure himself -- without him sticking to the therapy nothing will be done. So, my point here is that our spiritual growth is not automatic in human form. When we had been going through plant and animal life forms then I would agree with you -- they are guided by the instinct -- they do what they have to do, they have no choice. In human form we have a tendency to make very poor choices thus fall instead of rising.
Those who are at a similar level tend to form groups, will institute religions, speak and write about their realizations. Their level makes them act, speak and pray in certain ways. Often those at lower levels think that if they act, speak and pray in the same way, and hear or read about their realizations, they too will reach those levels. That’s turning things around, and will not work.
We have to follow the leader. We have to have a faith in our Guru. And we have to believe that success can be repeated. I want to be like my Guru, I want to see what he sees. So if I follow his steps I would like to believe that I will end up at the same destination. That’s why we dress like Hindus, that’s why we wear tilak, etc. Because we have been told that it’s conducive to our practice. Do we have to do it? Probably not -- do I feel more enlightened when I wear dhoti? No, but my Guru wears it and I want to be like him, besides wearing it puts me in a specific mindset -- now I look like thousands before me, I’m a part of something big, part of ancient tradition. So, I feel no harm in reading realizations of advanced devotees or dress and act like them because it gives me a glimpse into my potential and it inspires me to practice.
You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store of truth from which the former sages drew their wealth.
Those doors don’t have a sigh “Wipe your feet” or “Trespassers will be shot” -- assumption is that it’s common knowledge. It’s very encouraging to think that one of those days you actually might reach that door, but I would not recommend storming Heaven. One will eventually personally perceive the truth (when one becomes a sage), but now most of us have to rely on words and realizations of others.
Please correct me if I misunderstood your point.
I agree with Nanda-tanuja with regard to spiritual practice. Realization will not just come automatically like the sun appears on schedule. Realization will come based on our endeavor and on the grace of those who have it. That is why we associate with devotees who are more realized than ourselves - they can help us.
Spiritual progress will come at different rates for different practicioners based on their sukriti, their conditioning and their sincere effort. One will not advance without practice - read here following the methods given by the pure devotee - just as the milk will not boil without putting it on the heat.
It is true that we have to have our vision on the goal and that for most of us progress will not be rapid, at least from our current perspective. The argument that many people have against reincarnation is that it doesn't place the proper urgency on an individual to practice as if this is the one and only chance - in other words, it allows for complacency and acceptance of mediocrity. Guru Maharaja has said that it may take many lifetimes to reach perfection - but in one lifetime we will reach it - one life time - we should practice with our goal of it being this lifetime. In other words, while we may realize that the process is gradual, we should practice with a great sense of urgency to make a solution now.
In other words, while we may realize that the process is gradual, we should practice with a great sense of urgency to make a solution now.
I think it's useful to make a distinction among devotees with regard to the dimension of a "sense of urgency" in sadhana. Those who truly feel a great sense of urgency don't need any further stimulus to practice (although they certainly need guidance). It's the rest of us who need the example and precepts of the spiritual master to encourage us to do our part and not succumb to laziness and forgetfulness. You could say that we practice "as if" with a sense of urgency (or, if you prefer, with a "borrowed" sense of urgency), but that's not really the same thing. I think the distinction is worth making, and it may be part of what Ivar had in mind at the beginning of this discussion.
The more we hear about Krsna, think about Krsna, pray to Krsna, associate with Krsna's devotees etc. - the greater our sense of urgency will become. I agree with the distinction you made Robert and I think it is a very valid and important one.
The issue I have overall with the thesis that Ivar presented can be summed up with this quote from his text above:
"Often those at lower levels think that if they act, speak and pray in the same way, and hear or read about their realizations, they too will reach those levels. That’s turning things around, and will not work."
This is actually incorrect. The siddhanta is that we should follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas very carefully. We should hear about and read their realizations, we should pray the way they do amd the way they instruct us to and eventually we will attain higher realizations. That is our process and how it works. Nasta prayesu abadreshu.... By regularly hearing the Bhagavata all that is troublesome to the heart will be destroyed and loving devotion will be established in the heart. This is the process by which we are to attain realization.
Imitating is another thing altogether - if that is what Ivar meant to condemn and say wouldn't work - that I can agree with. We should not pretend to be something we aren't or to have attained something we haven't. The example I like is the one where Gaura Kishora dasa babaji says that by imitating the sounds of a mother giving birth one will not give birth - saying such in relation to someone who was imitating his bhajana practices but who wasn't qualified to do so.
I also don't agree with the overall idea that progress will come naturally. We have to take the effort - we can't just sit back and wait for the realization to come to us when it is 'our time'. We should know where we are at and sincerely try to progress. In business there is a saying that you are either growing (by constantly edeavoring to do so) or you are dwindling - there is no steady state. Progress isn't made through passivity. Spiritual progress will be made based on our sincere endeavor.
Another point that Ivar made that isn't corroborated in our scriptures is that it will do no good to preach about liberation to one who is deeply covered in darkness. While it is certainly true that a realized preacher will teach according to the level of attainment of the audience - it is also true that progress can come in leaps and bounds - there is no law that it has to follow along slowly by the gradual process that Ivar is advocating. There are plenty of examples in scripture that corroborate the idea that one can be elevated from the lowest level to the highest by the mercy of the devotee instantly. We also don't know the history of any person. Someone may appear to be in the darkest ignorance but be awakened and elevated to bright illumination quickly.
I'll digress to a personal experience here for a moment. I was distributing books in a parking lot many years ago and I found myself looking at people and judging who to approach and who not to approach based on my perception of how receptive they would be. I was not having much success. I realized that I was judging who to give Krsna's mercy to based on my material conception and decided to simply approach whoever was closest. At that very moment a very burly man who looked rather unpleasant came walking out of the store. I realized that this person epitomized the image of the person least likely to be interested - so I approached him. He turned out to be the most interested person I met that entire day. He bought several books from me and was the most pleasant person you could imagine. He was a grave stone engraver and he was a very thoughtful person who thought alot about what it means to live and die.
Personally my view because, I am hopeful, is that progress can be made rapidly - but also because I am pragmatic, I am engaged in climbing slowly, progressively - so even if realization doesn't come - I will continue with bhakti sadhana as per the instructions of Guru Maharaja.
Yes, progress results from endeavor. Mahaprabhu compared progress in bhakti to growing a vine. If you want to grow watermelons, you have to cultivate the soil, plant seeds, and water and weed your melon patch. Otherwise, you won't get the results you may hope for. To use an analogy from today's "news," Lance Armstrong won't win his seventh consecutive Tour de France just by owning a bike. He has eat and rest correctly and get out on the road every day and work his okole off, along with his teammates, every single day.
We need to take our sadhana seriously every day, keeping the sadhya in mind. How can we do this? Good company. We need a coach, good teammates. Ah--and the right food!
To Nanda-tanuja:
> It sound like you are assuming that spiritual growth is pretty much automatic like movement of the planet or expanding universe.
I think it’s both dependent on one’s desire and endeavour, but these will come when the time is right, when the soul has learnt the required lessons, many of which must be learned in mundane (e.g. family) life. So both “by endeavour” and “unavoidable”, automatic if you will. Just like fate is the result of free will, and they thus coexist, similarly life is by nature curriculum, and thus spiritual growth happens “automatically”, although nourished by good company (sadhu sanga), an able guide (guru) and previously discovered truths (sastra). Again, the comparison of trees: they grow slowly and gradually, yet certain factors, like light, water and nourishment, can exhilarate its growth.
> You are assuming that soul goes through evolutionary stages and spiritually growing. I’m not sure it’s correct; soul is perfect to start with, it’s just bewildered by maya.
We do not know how that bewilderment came about, whether it happened suddenly, or whether it happened slowly. I tend to believe it happened slowly, i.e. gradually, from spirit to matter, from the subtle to the gross, just like it’s our experience that the path from matter to spirit is a slow process.
> Spiritual growth is not an automatic thing, for example because of the anarthas it can digress.
I believe anarthas do not develop, but are part of the gross conditioning. When they become manifest, they were simply not seen or noticed before. When they become apparent, after some time an external fall down will follow. The spiritual growth will seem to digress, but the level was never that high. “Beware the mundane person in the dress of a Vaisnava.”
> When we had been going through plant and animal life forms then I would agree with you -- they are guided by the instinct -- they do what they have to do, they have no choice. In human form we have a tendency to make very poor choices thus fall instead of rising.
In animals we call it instinct (although I think instinct is just a certain genetical wiring of the nervous system, not an urge from the soul), in humans we call it Higher Self, paramatma. If you agree that in all the lower life forms evolution is a natural process, a Law of Nature, why wouldn’t that same principle apply to human life? Of course externally some people seem to fall down, they become more cruel, wicked, blasphemous or whatever. Yet that is part of a process that they may have to go through, part of an important lesson. Although in the opposite direction as we wish to go to (from matter to spirit) it’s still an unavoidable part of their path, and thus is progress.
> So if I follow his steps I would like to believe that I will end up at the same destination.
Yes, guides, teachers or coaches are helpful, and for many disciplines one cannot do without them.
> It’s very encouraging to think that one of those days you actually might reach that door, but I would not recommend storming Heaven. One will eventually personally perceive the truth (when one becomes a sage), but now most of us have to rely on words and realizations of others.
It’s not storming Heaven, because it requires true humility. The humility to not assume one already knows, the humility to not insist that one’s holy books cannot be contradicted by some direct experience or revelation, the humility to still be satisfied if the truth turns out to be different from what one assumed it was like. It requires a quiet, still consciousness, a purified nervous system, and a strong desire to know.
One should not wait with personally perceiving the truth until one becomes a sage, because unless you practice, how will you ever become a sage? After a life of mere listening to others, how will one be trained to think and experience for oneself?
To Audarya-lila:
> Realization will not just come automatically like the sun appears on schedule.
The Sun gradually moves up above the horizon, but clouds appear to delay its rising. Similarly we continually learn, grow, evolve, yet often it doesn’t look spectacular, usually it even seems like terrible degression. Some are indeed moving toward materialism, which they will enter, and then come out of again.
> Realization will come based on our endeavor and on the grace of those who have it. That is why we associate with devotees who are more realized than ourselves - they can help us.
Yes, I agree with that. Especially on the positive part of the spiral, the part from matter to spirit.
> Spiritual progress will come at different rates for different practicioners based on their sukriti, their conditioning and their sincere effort.
My subject for discussion is whether sukriti, conditioning etc. are related to one’s position on the grand circle which goes from spirit to matter (0 to 180 degrees) and from matter to spirit (from 180 degrees to 360 degrees, and then to 0 again).
> we should practice with our goal of it being this lifetime. In other words, while we may realize that the process is gradual, we should practice with a great sense of urgency to make a solution now.
Yes, why not strive for attaining the goal in one lifetime? Some will attain that goal.
To Robert Newman:
> Those who truly feel a great sense of urgency don't need any further stimulus to practice (although they certainly need guidance).
Exactly. At a certain point the urgency becomes a natural part of one’s being. I make the distinction that true urgency comes after (many lives) of spiritual progress, not after one is faced with disease, starvation or an early death. No material stimulus, neither positive nor negative, can drastically alter our nature.
> You could say that we practice "as if" with a sense of urgency (or, if you prefer, with a "borrowed" sense of urgency), but that's not really the same thing. I think the distinction is worth making, and it may be part of what Ivar had in mind at the beginning of this discussion.
Repeating a prayer in which a saint expresses his genuine urgency will not significantly stimulate our own urgency. Especially in the long run. Just like repeating a prayer of disgust for sexual activity (yada vadhi mama ceta krsna-padaravindam…) will not take away attraction to the opposite sex.
To Audarya-lila again:
> The more we hear about Krsna, think about Krsna, pray to Krsna, associate with Krsna's devotees etc. - the greater our sense of urgency will become.
Yes, but urgency is such a deep thing (avyartha kalatvam, a concern that no time is wasted, one of the 26 qualities of a pure devotee), that is will gradually mature.
> This is actually incorrect. The siddhanta is that we should follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas very carefully. We should hear about and read their realizations, we should pray the way they do and the way they instruct us to and eventually we will attain higher realizations.
You must follow what you can follow. If you cannot follow the spirit of a certain prayer, it will be your lips and not your heart reciting the prayer. Better to pick or formulate a prayer that is suitable to your level, have it checked by your Guru (I’m not saying one should pray for a good wife, money and all those things!) and pray that.
> Imitating is another thing altogether - if that is what Ivar meant to condemn and say wouldn't work - that I can agree with.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. I used to recite the prayer of Queen Kunti “Let all these troubles come to me, because then I will remember You,” but I stopped, because the meaning of that prayer was way beyond my level. But there are some prayers and slokas in Bhagavad-gita, Caitanya-caritamrta or in the poetry of Bhaktivinoda Thakura that I can sincerely chant.
> Gaura Kishora dasa babaji says that by imitating the sounds of a mother giving birth one will not give birth –
Great, I forgot that one! Thanks!
I also don't agree with the overall idea that progress will come naturally. We have to take the effort - we can't just sit back and wait for the realization to come to us when it is 'our time'.
When it’s your time, you will be drawn by your soul. It will take you to the sadhus, the scriptures and a guru, because in their company you will feel comfortable, because like you, they want to attain spiritual realization without delay. Their practice and teachings will inspire you. Without sufficient previous evolution, even if the sadhus and gurus would scream in your ear, you would not understand their words of urgency.
> Progress isn't made through passivity.
I agree. That was certainly not the point I was trying to make!
> Another point that Ivar made that isn't corroborated in our scriptures is that it will do no good to preach about liberation to one who is deeply covered in darkness.
We cannot see who is still on the path towards the deepest levels of darkness. Thus we should preach to everyone (I agree with what is corroborated in our scriptures!), but not waste our time when there is no response. In chapter 18 Krsna indicates that one should not preach (elaborately) to everyone.
> there is no law that it has to follow along slowly by the gradual process that Ivar is advocating.
Just my thoughts, not “The Teachings of Ivar”. I mean gradual over many lifetimes, the leaps and bounds within one lifetime are like the clouds I mentioned earlier. A student may have ups and downs, but it’s his overall progress which is important at the end of the year, and for the rest of his life.
> There are plenty of examples in scripture that corroborate the idea that one can be elevated from the lowest level to the highest by the mercy of the devotee instantly.
I have said in a previous discussion that I prefer not to discuss such examples, because we cannot be sure whether they are historical facts or mystical myths (stories which through symbolic language describe spiritual things, the literal story not being that relevant, in some cases misleading).
> We also don't know the history of any person. Someone may appear to be in the darkest ignorance but be awakened and elevated to bright illumination quickly.
I’m talking Laws of Nature, the Law of the Universe, the Law of God, the way Krsna “constructed” reality. Exception and stories in books are irrelevant.
> He was a grave stone engraver and he was a very thoughtful person who thought a lot about what it means to live and die.
Again, one cannot judge by externals. Approach to everyone, and preach to those who appear to be receptive.
Thanks everyone for participating in this discussion!
Haribol!
Ivar
Ivar, I appreciate you sparking a debate here and somewhat agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but in doing this I feel like you are using some of your own ideas which are not backed by Guru, Sadhu and Sastra. I do not see you quote one of the three.
For instance, the idea of spiritual growth being automatic, life moves always in an upward direction so to speak, is in my opinion not supported.
Spiritual life is a result of living a life of sradha and saranagati and as such we may receive grace. But without mercy and sukrti, we are nowhere. We need to qualify ourselves.
If all souls would ultimately end up in Goloka Vrindavana, why would there be so much preaching against Mayavadis in Gaudiya Vaisnavism?
From a Sanga:
"'Karma, yoga, and jnana all produce naimittika sukrti, whereas the association of bhaktas and contact with acts of devotion produce nitya-sukrti. Only one who has accumulated nitya sukrti over many lifetimes will develop sraddha (faith in bhakti). Naimittika-sukrti produces many different results, but it will not lead to the development of faith in unalloyed bhakti." (Jaiva-Dharma, chapter 6)'"
Ivar, I have a completely different perspective to the spiritual progress. I don’t think it’s automatic (like a growth of a tree), cyclical (from spirit to matter and from matter to spirit), nor unidirectional. Jiva is a marginal energy, so it’s easily influenced by the surrounding environment and more you stay with matter more you become matter-like. I would like to quote one of my favorite books (not quite shastra, but still) Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll.
'Now! Now!' cried the Queen. 'Faster! Faster!' And they went so fast that at last they seemed to skim through the air, hardly touching the ground with their feet, till suddenly, just as Alice was getting quite exhausted, they stopped, and she found herself sitting on the ground, breathless and giddy.
The Queen propped her up against a tree, and said kindly, 'You may rest a little now.'
Alice looked round her in great surprise. 'Why, I do believe we've been under this tree the whole time! Everything's just as it was!'
'Of course it is,' said the Queen, 'what would you have it?'
'Well, in OUR country,' said Alice, still panting a little, 'you'd generally get to somewhere else -- if you ran very fast for a long time, as we've been doing.'
'A slow sort of country!' said the Queen. 'Now, HERE, you see, it takes all the running YOU can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!'
So in our predicament we have to run very fast to even stay on our current spiritual level, but to progress we have to run twice as fast. So this is where your sense of urgency coming from – you are sinking in the swamp. You are not THERE until you are THERE.
The humility to not assume one already knows, the humility to not insist that one’s holy books cannot be contradicted by some direct experience or revelation, the humility to still be satisfied if the truth turns out to be different from what one assumed it was like.
You have a very strange definition of humility. Humility is when you realize you have no taste for something bigger then life. Humility is when you realize how small you are. Humility is when you realize what is your current position in comparison to your potential. You are implying that revelation can contradict shastras. I don’t think it’s possible. Both have to sing about same thing, only melody can differ – no contradiction.
Personally, I can relate to what Ivar is getting at. Maybe it is just similar life experience or something, but I tend to get what he's saying without getting too caught up in "oh, that sounds very different than anything I've heard before." I think his response to some of the comments demonstrates that he's speaking of things beyond the philisophical knee jerk reactions we may have. I don't see the problem with a person presenting their ideas based on some experience and discussing amongst friends. It is okay sometimes to speak a blend of sastra, experience and personal perspective right?
As for the actual points he's making, I thought of two things.
#1 - Yes, in some very rare cases, people make instantaneous or very quick advancement. This is krpa siddha. I don't think he would argue with that. The point is though that these are exceptional, rare circumstances. We should not depend upon that. It seemed to me that the essential point in Ivar's post is "slow and steady wins the race." Those of us who have come to an attraction to Gaudiya Vaishnavism have reached some point of spiritual maturity that we were ready to accept it. It seems to me the best way to preserve it is to nurture it with care, not pump it up with so much juice that it bursts and we disappear - BURN OUT. Maybe I'm not following the train of thought, but I don't see much more than this suggested in Ivar's post.
#2 - While reading Ivar's thoughts I remembered something Bhakti Tirtha Maharaj said many years ago that always stuck with me. He was speaking very contrary to the general mood of ISKCON, saying that "we do not need to go hunting down, begging people to join this movement. They are already out there and they will come." My interpretation is he was basically making the point that this is not for everyone. There is a spiritual evolution and while we should give the opportunity of K.C. by preaching, we may not have to endeavor as much as sometimes we think. I guess it meant to me that Krishna in the heart will connect us (and others to us) all at the right time. And also when we live in the right consciousness, it is always the right time.
Another thought that I think relates to Ivar's ideas are that devotees can tend to think they are above the modes of nature maybe a little more than reality. One's nature and one's particular mix of the modes is very deeply imprinted in this life. Even if we want to "go fast", embodiment seems to me that we must work within our prison cell to make plans for the long term escape. No point in trying to squeeze inbetween the bars or risk killing ourselves by fighting the guards.
None of this is to imply non-endeavor and just waiting for Krsna to make you conscious of Him. I just felt like there is something to what Ivar is saying that is being missed.
To Shyam Gopal:
> I feel like you are using some of your own ideas which are not backed by Guru, Sadhu and Sastra. I do not see you quote one of the three.
There are some issues that I feel have not been dealt with elaborately by previous sages and scriptures. Other issues have been dealt with, but (depending on the source) are worth questioning. An example of the first is the origin of the jiva, and example of the latter are scriptural statements regarding women or even philosophical issues like reincarnation. In older scriptures there were references to realms where everyone would go, such as pitriloka (where the forefathers go), whereas in later scriptures the possibility of rebirth on Earth was introduced, first as a human being, then the danger of going down into lower life forms.
The questions that I asked at the beginning of this discussion may be answered by referring to guru, sadhu and sastra, I do not mind. I have a tendency to understand things through analogy, and thus I mentioned orbits, growth of trees etc. I believe there are certain universal principles that apply to many levels of reality. The natural tendency to grow and evolve is one of them.
> For instance, the idea of spiritual growth being automatic, life moves always in an upward direction so to speak, is in my opinion not supported.
Notice that many times I mentioned that some go in a downward direction. But because there’s no way to go up before first going down that road, it is their path of progress, even though it will bring them pain, misery and isolation from Krsna and their real self. Vidyam ca avidyam, both knowledge and ignorance.
> Spiritual life is a result of living a life of sradha and saranagati and as such we may receive grace. But without mercy and sukrti, we are nowhere. We need to qualify ourselves.
Sraddha refers to faith in a certain process (abhideya) and the goals of that process (prayojana). Saranagati means surrendering everything for that process and to that goal, i.e. to God. Saranagati, when practiced fully, is not part of a path, not a method, but is the goal itself. We may need to qualify ourselves, but I feel that most qualifying is not done by ourselves, but rather by life, my all the different kinds of lessons we learn before we come to the final stages.
> If all souls would ultimately end up in Goloka Vrindavana, why would there be so much preaching against Mayavadis in Gaudiya Vaisnavism?
Please read my text again. I’m not stating either directly or indirectly that all souls automatically end up in Goloka Vrindavana. I’m saying that all souls will gradually grow, mature, reach higher levels of consciousness. Apparently as they progress, they sometimes appear to go down again, but that only seems to be so, because what happens is that they learn from their experience. What we see is only a very short span of time. We may witness someone’s life for 30 years or so, but factually their progress has been going on for more than 3 billion years.
To Nanda-tanuja:
> I don’t think it’s automatic (like a growth of a tree),
A tree doesn’t grow automatically. It’s the nature of the tree, its blueprint, to grow. Without light, water and food it will not. But does a tree only grow upward? No. Indeed, the first thing that a nut does is develop a root, which goes down into the soil. Similarly I’m saying it’s the nature of the soul to grow, first by becoming an individual identified with matter. From that position it will evolve it’s consciousness. For some reason the soul needs to go down before going up. Perhaps it’s one big lesson of becoming an individual first, and then a unselfish, dedicated, devoted individual. Perhaps it’s not possible for a universal spark of consciousness (the jiva in a brahmajyoti type of setting) to attain to spiritual individuality directly. Perhaps it requires elaborate education first. Perhaps means I’m speculating. But I don’t think my stipulations are that unreasonable.
> cyclical (from spirit to matter and from matter to spirit),
The reason for this cycle may be as described above. The idea that there’s a cycle is not unreasonable. There are cycles everywhere:
Breathing in, breathing out.
Becoming awake, falling asleep.
The flow of blood.
The flow of water (clouds, rain, rivers, sea, clouds)
Daylight increasing (in a day, or in a year), daylight decreasing.
Moon waxing, Moon waning.
Becoming physically stronger (from birth to adolescence) and weaker again.
> nor unidirectional. Jiva is a marginal energy, so it’s easily influenced by the surrounding environment and more you stay with matter more you become matter-like.
If becoming more matter-like would have no purpose for that soul, it would not happen. Only when there is a higher purpose, things happen. Not a blade of grass moves…
> by Lewis Carroll.
Nice, I read that book when I was a teenager. Got an A+ for my review of it (The Annotated Alice).
> So in our predicament we have to run very fast to even stay on our current spiritual level, but to progress we have to run twice as fast.
Unless you have developed the muscles, you won’t be able to keep up the speed. It’s alright to try, but no need to feel guilty, useless or fallen if you fail. Better to realize your level, train accordingly and move on.
> So this is where your sense of urgency coming from – you are sinking in the swamp. You are not THERE until you are THERE.
If what I say is correct, there appears to be a swamp, while factually it’s something like a train that goes down into a very deep mine. Not automatically, but stimulated by the desire of the jiva to exploit matter. Reaching the lowest level of that mine, the train goes up again. Not automatically, but stimulated by the desire of the jiva to become free from the darkness, the cold, the pain, the illusion. Perhaps the example would be better of one climbing down a cave. Going up again is gradual process, because one has to find a good grip for one’s hands and feet. Sometimes one slips down again, but learning from that one takes a better route next time.
> You have a very strange definition of humility.
It wasn’t a definition. Humility is the opposite of arrogance. One can be arrogant about dogmas and scriptural statements. One can be so convinced of an outdated thought that one is closed to new revelations (either through mystical or mundane experiences).
> You are implying that revelation can contradict shastras. I don’t think it’s possible. Both have to sing about same thing, only melody can differ – no contradiction.
Whether it can or cannot, is not the issue. What is important is whether we can handle a revelation that contradicts our common interpretation of the sastras. Are we open minded, or will we only see what we want to see?
To Madangopal.
> #1 - Yes, in some very rare cases, people make instantaneous or very quick advancement. This is krpa siddha. I don't think he would argue with that.
Well, just a short comment. Those receiving such blessings, do so because previously they were at a certain level. Just like the prodigy Mozart: did he get the blessings of his teachers and father? Yes, he did, they taught and encouraged him. Is that the complete explanation? From the one-life perspective yes, from the viewpoint of reincarnation, no. Obviously Mozart had developed the musical gift in previous lifetimes.
> It seemed to me that the essential point in Ivar's post is "slow and steady wins the race."
The main point was that there’s no need to worry when progress doesn’t seem to be happening in a spectacular way. No need to feel guilty, fallen, sinful, useless or ashamed. And no need to fear death. Certainly no need to fear going down into lower life forms. And no need to scare others, with scriptural statements or otherwise.
An extreme example are the folks who say that you must hurry to get the mercy of the uttama-adhikari rasika-bhakta, to attain the highest levels of manjari bhava, and avoid falling down to Vaikuntha!
I’m not afraid of death, and I’m not afraid of not being a pure devotee before death. I am afraid of not having learnt whatever I was supposed to learn in this lifetime.
> Those of us who have come to an attraction to Gaudiya Vaishnavism have reached some point of spiritual maturity that we were ready to accept it.
Exactly. That maturity is an average sum total. On top of that sum total there are some fluctuations. Some improvement and some loss. What really counts is the sum total, that which can never be lost, as Krsna describes it in Bhagavad-gita. Everyone will come to the level of spiritual maturity that we have reached, perhaps thousands or millions of years from now. When they reach that level they will take up sadhana, receive initiation etc. They will have to endeavor, develop more faith, and eventually they will surrender themselves (saranagati) to Krsna in Goloka Vrindavan. It’s not automatic. Even if it would be, I do not like calling Krsna’s design automatic. Rather than an automatic process, it’s a perfect process. So perfect, that we can hardly understand it.
> They are already out there and they will come."
So right.
> while we should give the opportunity of K.C. by preaching, we may not have to endeavor as much as sometimes we think.
Exactly. I remember Harikesa Swami’s campaign called “Liberate Stockholm”. Even with thousands of Rohini Sutas and Harinamanandas distributing books 24 hours a day, it won’t happen. Yet if there’s no book distribution at all, those on higher levels of evolution will have no chance of coming in contact with Krsna. They would therefore have to be born in other countries, like India, or on another planet. I could take birth in the Netherlands because sadhus and sastras had come here, many purified souls could take birth in the USA because Srila Prabhupada would go there.
> I guess it meant to me that Krishna in the heart will connect us (and others to us) all at the right time.
Yes. Even from an astrological viewpoint (which doesn’t cause anything, only describes) it is seen that the indications for when and to what extent one practices spiritual activities are already “known” at the time one is born, i.e. before one receives sadhu-sanga, siksha, diksha or krpa. One’s previous evolution, one’s sum total, will draw these things into one’s life.
I have seen this in my own birth chart and in the charts of many devotees. Send me ten birth data, one of which belongs to a genuine devotee who at a certain age received the “causeless” mercy. I’m quite sure I can pick the right chart. That chart was not created when they received the mercy, or started to endeavor very hard, or started to act with a great sense of urgency. That chart was created when they took their first breath.
> Even if we want to "go fast", embodiment seems to me that we must work within our prison cell to make plans for the long term escape.
Yes. But here again, I do not think the word prison (durga) describes the situation accurately. I prefer the word school (you can’t skip a class!). Or university if you’re a devotee. Both schools and universities are difficult to go through (dur-ga) and you cannot leave them (dur-ga) until you have passed for all the exams or have graduated.
Ivar
The main point was that there’s no need to worry when progress doesn’t seem to be happening in a spectacular way. No need to feel guilty, fallen, sinful, useless or ashamed.
For many people, this is no doubt a very important realisation. Few things are as disempowering as guilt or as dangerous as trying to storm into Goloka. On the other hand -- and I guess this is what the main criticism of your first posting has been, Ivar -- there is the danger of becoming complacent. Sadhana-bhakti means practice, and as Audarya-lila and others have pointed out, that involves some "uphill" struggle. Finding the balance here is not the easiest thing.
For many people, this is no doubt a very important realisation. Few things are as disempowering as guilt or as dangerous as trying to storm into Goloka. On the other hand -- and I guess this is what the main criticism of your first posting has been, Ivar -- there is the danger of becoming complacent. Sadhana-bhakti means practice, and as Audarya-lila and others have pointed out, that involves some "uphill" struggle. Finding the balance here is not the easiest thing.
These words from Pujyapada Sridhara Deva Goswami seem relevant:
“Do or die, that is the slogan of Gaudiya Matha. Let us try our utmost, strive our utmost to achieve what is our own real prospect. And no compromise, not any compromise in the way, in midway. But fight to the finish. We are to fight to the finish. And we must be prepared for that. The call of the Gaudiya Matha acarya was so; not any haphazard.”
Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja once again:
“When approaching the high spiritual life, you must invite death at every step. Give yourself with the most intense desire: do or die. At every point, keep your life as your guarantee: "I shall succeed or I shall die." Approach the sound, giving yourself with this spirit. No giving - no getting. If you can desire to give with such an intensified nature, you will be transformed into a bonafide candidate for the higher world.
Service means self-giving, self-dedication, and this should be our attitude to approach the plane. In that way, all the coatings of ego will vanish one by one, and the genuine self will come from within and select its own soil: "This is my home." So many coverings are deviating us in different directions, taking us far, far away from our svarupa, our real noble self - a servant in the highest plane of the whole organism. The Beautiful is playing, dancing in His own sweetness and affection, and we can reach Him, following such a course of 'do or-die' at every moment.
Through self-giving I can acquire my fortune, and not as a master sitting in my chair gathering information from different quarters to utilize for my selfish plans. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sanga 'tha bhajana-kriya (B.r.s. Purva, 4.15): to progress with faith, keeping the association of devotees and dedicating one's activities to the Lord, means this - you must go forward in your life with the spirit that you are willing to give away this life. 'Do-or-die' is, of course, not in the physical sense but the internal sense (bhajana-kriya). This is self-giving, ego-giving.”
Note that he is speaking about the stage of bhajana kriya, not bhava, at which time avyartha kalatvam (urgency/not wasting a moment) is applicable.