Tattva-viveka
Gauranga.... Nagara?
Syamasundara - July 18, 2005 9:02 pm
What's up with this Gauranagara extravaganza anyway?
I don't get it. The whole point of Mahaprabhu's descent is for Krsna to be able to experience Radharani's mood; the very same name Gauranga says it all. And Gadadhara is what is left of Radha after Krsna steels her bhava: an empty sack, as they say. Even if Gadadhara had that kind of conjugal attitude toward Mahaprabhu, he would have it toward Krsna AND Radha, because that's what Mahaprabhu is. It just wouldn't work. At the same time there are recounts in Caitanya Bhagavata of Nimai Pandita being spiteful to the girls of Navadvipa bathing in the Ganga, but we also know that the parallels between Krsna and Gaura lila are not exactly parallel. In Krsna's earthly lila the real Krsna is to be found in Vraja, and as soon as he leaves Vrndavana a Krsna avatara of Vishnu comes into the scene, the one who lives in Mathura and Dvaraka. Similarly it is said that when Mahaprabhu is in Navadvipa, getting married, etc, that is actually the avatara Gaura-narayana, whereas the real Gaura-hari is the sannyasi who gets more and more absorbed in premabhakti and at the same time gives it to whoever asks for it.
I was wondering then, why don't we keep Puri in higher regard than Navadvipa then?
The answer that I drew is that the scriptures say that there is no difference between Vrndavana and Navadvipa, and thinking otherwise is quite offensive. Moreover, Mahaprabhu is called Vipralambha murti, the form of separation, and we know that prema and vipralambha are strictly connected, so it only made sense that the Vipralambha murti could be himself only away from Vrndavana/Navadvipa. Finally, guess what, Purusottama Ksetra (Puri) is equivalent to Kuruksetra, as the Ratha Yatra sweetly reminds us, and Srila Bhaktivinoda reminds us that the highest service is in Kuruksetra, not in Vrndavana, because in Vrndavana everything is conducive to the lila of Radha and Krsna, whereas in Kuruksetra with all those people watching and the opulence... so any service offered to Srimati Radharani at that moment gives the highest benefit.
As usual I am getting a little overwhelmed and distracted by these nice thoughts and can't go on anymore; also, I realize I haven't expressed myself in the easiest terms for the newcomers, so I should probably stop anyway.
I really hope I've made sense so far and haven't said any apasiddhanta, but even so, so much the better, this way the real Vaisnavas will start to speak and say the truth.
Oh, here is a story to mellow out.
Once when we were in Vrndavana, I was listening to some bhajans that Vrndaranya recorded at the Radhagokulananda temple, which is dear to all the Audaryavasis.
The bhajans were very unusual, in sadhu bhasa (old bengali) and all about Gauranga in Puri. To me it sounded very new and captivating. One line that I could make out said: "He who used to steal the gopis' clothes in Vrndavana on the bank of the Yamuna is now roaming around naked (in a kaupina) on the ocean shore in Puri. The first half of the final stanza said: "Ramananda Raya says 'He's no sannyasi.'"
Very nice song, when back at Audarya I told Guru Maharaja about those songs and those lines and his lotus eyes lit up with excitement. He didn't comment much but it felt as if we had just discovered some precious gems from the past. I think everybody should learn some Bengali if they want to develop some love for Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Kaviraja Goswami, Narottama dasa Thakura. GM also stresses that we know at least the general sense of the songs we sing.
Bhrigu - July 19, 2005 6:07 am
Similarly it is said that when Mahaprabhu is in Navadvipa, getting married, etc, that is actually the avatara Gaura-narayana, whereas the real Gaura-hari is the sannyasi who gets more and more absorbed in premabhakti and at the same time gives it to whoever asks for it.
Are you sure that this is correct, Syamasundarji? In the nityalila, Gauranga is married and lives in Navadvip. If there is any Nandanandana Krishna/ Vasudeva Krishna - type dicotomy in Gaura-lila, one would expect it to be exactly the opposite to what you are saying.
Bhakta Ivar - July 19, 2005 3:40 pm
> At the same time there are recounts in Caitanya Bhagavata of Nimai Pandita being spiteful to the girls of Navadvipa bathing in the Ganga,
There are some scrolls (Nag Hamadi) which describe the early childhood of Jezus, how he used to tease the village girls. It’s interesting that such accounts are given of Krsna, Nimai and Jezus. It’s also interesting that both Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Jezus Christ were first considered self realized saints, and later God Himself.
> when Mahaprabhu is in Navadvipa, getting married, etc, that is actually the avatara Gaura-narayana, whereas the real Gaura-hari is the sannyasi
How did that take place? Did he gradually change from Gaura-narayana to Gaura-hari, or was there an abrupt change?
Surely He who was born on that eclipsed Full Moon night was the same person throughout His 48 years of life. His mood, focus and activities changed, and thus one can roughly divide His life in certain periods. But different avataras, isn’t that a bit far sought?
Ivar
Syamasundara - July 19, 2005 8:42 pm
I've been wrecking my brains over this (or raking my brains, as I used to say) and I am still not sure of anything.
I'll reason this out while writing.
I was thinking of the purpose of each avatara. To begin with, for those who didn't know, the avatara for Dvapara yuga is Haladhara (Sankarsana, Balarama). At the moment it escapes me why he makes his descent; what's good news is that once in a day of Brahma, I believe during the 27th or 28th maha-yuga, Dvapara yuga comes after Treta yuga, like in the present era, and Krsna also makes his appearance. So rejoice everyone. Now, Krsna is no avatara, he is svayam bhagavan, and he comes with no real purpose, other than pleasing his devotees, and as our Gurudeva says, "to play on location." In Vrndavana on earth Krsna can be a baby, he can kill demons and other things that in goloka don't happen. So, to answer to bhakta Ivar at the same time, at that time we have the lila-avatara Haladhara, who carries the plow, svayam bhagavan Krsna who lives eternally in Vrndavana, but also a Krsna-avatara, a two-armed Visnu, who is the one who shows four hands at every drop of a hat, and outside of Vraja, like when he appeared to Devaki and Vasudeva (4 arms, then 2), killed Sisupala (with the cakra), spoke the Gita, in other words the one who does the hard work (hence the extra pair of hands 
).
Krsna is just the supreme player (Deva), he has no real task other than relishing rasas with his devotees. Also it is said poetically that Radha's love prevents Krsna from ever manifesting 4 arms (aisvarya, opulence).
The gaudiya saints explain that Devaki and Vasudeva are actually other names for Yasoda and Nanda, so yes, Krsna is the son of Devaki and Vasudeva, but the baby Krsna that Akrura carried across the Yamuna to Gokula is actually the two-armed Visnu. When Akrura got to Gokula the inhabitants were also under the hypnotic influence of yoga maya. Yasodarani had just given birth to a baby girl and a boy. Krsna replaced the girl (Mayadevi) with baby Krsna and at that moment the dvibhuja Visnu merged into svayam bhagavan, the source of all avataras. That form of Visnu would occasionally "coat" Krsna while he would kill the demons sent by Kamsa.
Then, when Akrura came to bring Krsna to Mathura, they bathed at the Akrura gatha, at the outskirts of Vrndavana, and at that point Krsna, who never sets a foot outside Vrndavana, became unmanifest, and guess who came out of the pond with Akrura, married 16,108 queens and all that? Two-armed Vishnu.
(By the way, the Balarama in Vrndavana is also the original Balarama.)
My speculation, well let's call it provocation, is that something similar must have happened when Nimai Pandit swam across the Ganga to reach Kesava Bharati and take sannyasa from him.
The Lord is called triyuga, if he ever appears in kali-yuga, he comes as Gaura Narayana, and delivers everybody with nama sankirtana (not prema sankirtana).
Sri Krsna Caitanya and his flood of prema were totally unscheduled and unprecedented, to my understanding (eta premananda visva na dekhila ara, jaya gauracandra lila audarya apara).
So, this is not only the only mahayuga in which Krsna himself appears in the material world, but the only time in which the universe has been blessed with the most beautiful form of Gauranga Mahaprabhu, Radha and Govinda combined. When I think of that I feel so incredibly small out of embarrassement for the undeserved mercy I received of even hearing the name of Gaura, and at the same time I feel as big as the world, filled with happiness.
The demigods were waiting in line to be able to appear as part of the cast in the lila of Gaura Krsna.
Prema is the most secret and precious thing, and Mahaprabhu is just giving it out to everybody, while absorbed in trying to taste it himself. That is his "purpose", even if he is svayam bhagavan and no avatar. As GM says, Gauranga Mahaprabhu is Krsna during his most introspective moments. Radharani, devotion personified, is Krsna's hladini sakti, or internal joy. The more Krsna looks into himself, the more he sees Radhika and her deep love. His meditation is so strong strong that you can see it on his external body, and he becomes golden.
I don't know to what extent things are parallel or inverted between Krsna lila and Gaura lila, but it's a fact that Krsna became more of an avatara when he left Vrndavana, whereas Mahaprabu became more and more intense in his development of prema, after he took sannyasa, and left Navadvipa, as much as in the spirtual Gaura is married, etc.
After all it makes sense. When in Navadvipa Nimai Pandita was revered by all and everyone, for being a wonderful scholar, for being so incredibly beautiful, or just 'cause: he was the rising moon of Mayapur (Mayapur-candrodaya). His devotees at one point offered him an arati that lasted almost a whole day, and do we want to talk about his wedding? The whole village went crazy for the divine couple, and it happened twice! So naturally, in order to pursue the divine love experienced by Radha, he hid even more in the body of a devotee, a sadhu, and left Navadvipa.
I am not pretending to be realized in anyway. Mine is just an effort of memory and reasoning, and anybody is welcome to correct me at any time
Bhakta Ivar - July 20, 2005 11:02 am
> My speculation, well let's call it provocation, is that something similar must have happened when Nimai Pandit swam across the Ganga to reach Kesava Bharati and take sannyasa from him.
It’s a nice thought. But Nimai already experienced a change of heart when he met His guru Isvara Puri, not when he took sannyasa. But as I mentioned, his heart did change gradually. He became more and more absorbed as He met more and more devotees (like Ramananda Raya), visited holy places (like Vrindavana), and witnessed festivals (like Ratha-yatra) etc. There are significant differences between the sannyasi who went to preach in South India, and the sannyasi who was so mad that He continually hurt Himself in Puri (meditating on the agony of Srimati Radharani: “These are the same Moonlit nights in the month of Caitra, the same fragrance of Malati flowers is here…”).
From an astrological point of view, He must have had His first major change of heart, or change of thought actually, in 1407 and 1408, which would be when He was 21 or 22. At that time transitory Uranus moved over His Mercury (and sextile His 9th lord Mars). At the same time (Februari, May and November 1407) Pluto went over His Saturn. Saturn being the 7th lord, this may have been the time his first bride died, but I’m not sure (can anyone say what happened in His life during the periods I’ve mentioned?). It can also denote His father’s departure.
In March 1509 Pluto went stationary and then retrograde over His Neptune, which shows that at this time he experienced very deep mystical experiences. In Januari 1910 His natal Moon, Sun and Jupiter were aspected by transitory Jupiter, who is named Guru in Sanskrit. This happened during the vimsottari-dasha Moon-Venus. In His chart the Moon is aspected by Mars and Saturn, showing detachment (on a more mundane level it means trouble, even death, for the women in one’s life). Venus in His chart is placed in the 9th house, which is the house of religion, higher knowledge and the Guru. Thus somewhere during this period (09-1509 till 05-1511) He was initiated. Pluto again touched His Neptune in July and September 1510.
In November 1511 his vimsottari-dasha became that of Mars-Mars. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhus was born with Leo rising, and thus Mars is the yoga-karaka, meaning a planet that is simultaneously lord of an angular and a trinal house. In this case Mars if lord of the 4th (the heart) and the 9th (religion, foreign countries) and it’s placed in Capricorn, its sign of exaltation (maximum strength). It was during the onset of the Mars dasha that Mahaprabhu travelled south to preach His realizations. Because Pluto now trined His Venus, He would meet many new friends (Venus) who had a deep and transforming impact (Pluto) on Him. Also He would come across poetry and other aesthetic expressions (Venus) with such an impact.
Skipping many years, let’s see the planetary positions as He went divinely mad. The most powerful long term indicator of madness is Neptune, the planet which dissolves, normal reality for example. Especially when Neptune influences the Moon (emotions) or Mercury (the intellect) people start to act in strange ways.
Again, I have no biography of Mahaprabhu nearby, so if others can verify these dates it would be very nice. March 1523 marks the first opposition of Neptune to His natal Moon. During that summer Neptune, Saturn and Rahu all opposed His Moon. Neptune would continue to do so in Februari 1524. After that Neptune conjuncted His Sun while Uranus squared His Moon and Sun. Unusual physical transformations must thus have occurred around the year 1525.
As mentioned above, when Neptune contacts Mercury, the intellect is dissolved, resulting in outward madness. Mahaprabhu’s natal Mercury was in Pisces, the sign which corresponds with the symbolism of Neptune. The intellect of those whose Mercury is in Pisces tends to float off into other realities, into transcendent realms (although His Mercury was thus weak, it’s forming an exact sextile with Mars, which makes one a powerful speaker). When Neptune conjuncts such a Mercury in Pisces (which happened in May and August 1532, and March 1533), one loses touch with the mundane world. A conjunction is usually a good connection, and thus we see that at this stage of His life He was having extraordinary inner visions. Uranus sextile His Moon/ trine His Sun is another good aspect happening around that time.
He disappeared in 1534, but the cause of His “death” is shrouded in mystery. Astrologically this is due to Neptune moving through Mahaprabhu’s 8th house. Some say He just dissolved, or merged with a Deity. Again, Neptune (dissolving, merging). I do not know in which month it happened.
To come back to the original topic: As can be seen, His mood and activities changed several times, and thus we cannot make a clear distinction between who He was before and after He took sannyasa. It even seems His “madness” came in two separate waves, the first from 1523 til1525, the second from 1532 til His departure.
Ivar
Syamasundara - July 20, 2005 3:40 pm
> My speculation, well let's call it provocation, is that something similar must have happened when Nimai Pandit swam across the Ganga to reach Kesava Bharati and take sannyasa from him.
It’s a nice thought. But Nimai already experienced a change of heart when he met His guru Isvara Puri, not when he took sannyasa.
That's right.
As far as the astrological part, you are probably the only one who understands or appreciates it. I can already hear the hard core devotees getting on your case for making the Lord appear as under the influence of the stars, whereas he's is totally independent. The fact is that he does do whatever he wants, and that corresponds to certain celestial movements.
We are so used to conceiving of the universe as linear in time and tridimensional in space, but it's so not like that. What to speak of the one quarter of creation which is made of svarupa sakti.
Tattva Viveka is a great and precious tool for keeping our minds open, with sound, considerate and gentle discussions.
I remember once in eugene Citta Hari and I flipped over and over because of one simple statement made by GM about Vrndavana.
As some of you know, the Brahma Samhita gives a very casual, yet bizarre description of Goloka.
Enscribed in a hexagone, tridents facing all directions to protect the Dhama (from what? Something more powerful than Krsna?), with the Divine Couple in the center of a lotus flower with thousands of petals, and a gopi in each petal, like bees in the hive. Sounds pretty static.
GM just said: "That's like the blueprint of Goloka." And it made so much sense. When we see the map of the mall that says "YOU ARE HERE", we don't think: "I'm not there, I'm here! And I'm not a red dot! Ben & Jerry's is not a square with a word in it, it's right here on my left and there is so much going on in there." That's because our intellect adapts and adjusts things to make sense, so we naturally know that the two realities coincide.
Other than that. I didn't know that Neptune and Pluto were taken into consideration in Jyotish.
PS Oh as far as the tridents or the dik pala murtis in Vrndavana, I think it's more to convey the idea that it's something very precious and confidential, not that it really needs protection.
SashidharaDasa - July 20, 2005 7:46 pm
> My speculation, well let's call it provocation, is that something similar must have happened when Nimai Pandit swam across the Ganga to reach Kesava Bharati and take sannyasa from him.
It’s a nice thought. But Nimai already experienced a change of heart when he met His guru Isvara Puri, not when he took sannyasa. But as I mentioned, his heart did change gradually. He became more and more absorbed as He met more and more devotees (like Ramananda Raya), visited holy places (like Vrindavana), and witnessed festivals (like Ratha-yatra) etc. There are significant differences between the sannyasi who went to preach in South India, and the sannyasi who was so mad that He continually hurt Himself in Puri (meditating on the agony of Srimati Radharani: “These are the same Moonlit nights in the month of Caitra, the same fragrance of Malati flowers is here…”).
From an astrological point of view, He must have had His first major change of heart, or change of thought actually, in 1407 and 1408, which would be when He was 21 or 22. At that time transitory Uranus moved over His Mercury (and sextile His 9th lord Mars). At the same time (Februari, May and November 1407) Pluto went over His Saturn. Saturn being the 7th lord, this may have been the time his first bride died, but I’m not sure (can anyone say what happened in His life during the periods I’ve mentioned?). It can also denote His father’s departure.
In March 1509 Pluto went stationary and then retrograde over His Neptune, which shows that at this time he experienced very deep mystical experiences. In Januari 1910 His natal Moon, Sun and Jupiter were aspected by transitory Jupiter, who is named Guru in Sanskrit. This happened during the vimsottari-dasha Moon-Venus. In His chart the Moon is aspected by Mars and Saturn, showing detachment (on a more mundane level it means trouble, even death, for the women in one’s life). Venus in His chart is placed in the 9th house, which is the house of religion, higher knowledge and the Guru. Thus somewhere during this period (09-1509 till 05-1511) He was initiated. Pluto again touched His Neptune in July and September 1510.
In November 1511 his vimsottari-dasha became that of Mars-Mars. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhus was born with Leo rising, and thus Mars is the yoga-karaka, meaning a planet that is simultaneously lord of an angular and a trinal house. In this case Mars if lord of the 4th (the heart) and the 9th (religion, foreign countries) and it’s placed in Capricorn, its sign of exaltation (maximum strength). It was during the onset of the Mars dasha that Mahaprabhu travelled south to preach His realizations. Because Pluto now trined His Venus, He would meet many new friends (Venus) who had a deep and transforming impact (Pluto) on Him. Also He would come across poetry and other aesthetic expressions (Venus) with such an impact.
Skipping many years, let’s see the planetary positions as He went divinely mad. The most powerful long term indicator of madness is Neptune, the planet which dissolves, normal reality for example. Especially when Neptune influences the Moon (emotions) or Mercury (the intellect) people start to act in strange ways.
Again, I have no biography of Mahaprabhu nearby, so if others can verify these dates it would be very nice. March 1523 marks the first opposition of Neptune to His natal Moon. During that summer Neptune, Saturn and Rahu all opposed His Moon. Neptune would continue to do so in Februari 1524. After that Neptune conjuncted His Sun while Uranus squared His Moon and Sun. Unusual physical transformations must thus have occurred around the year 1525.
As mentioned above, when Neptune contacts Mercury, the intellect is dissolved, resulting in outward madness. Mahaprabhu’s natal Mercury was in Pisces, the sign which corresponds with the symbolism of Neptune. The intellect of those whose Mercury is in Pisces tends to float off into other realities, into transcendent realms (although His Mercury was thus weak, it’s forming an exact sextile with Mars, which makes one a powerful speaker). When Neptune conjuncts such a Mercury in Pisces (which happened in May and August 1532, and March 1533), one loses touch with the mundane world. A conjunction is usually a good connection, and thus we see that at this stage of His life He was having extraordinary inner visions. Uranus sextile His Moon/ trine His Sun is another good aspect happening around that time.
He disappeared in 1534, but the cause of His “death” is shrouded in mystery. Astrologically this is due to Neptune moving through Mahaprabhu’s 8th house. Some say He just dissolved, or merged with a Deity. Again, Neptune (dissolving, merging). I do not know in which month it happened.
To come back to the original topic: As can be seen, His mood and activities changed several times, and thus we cannot make a clear distinction between who He was before and after He took sannyasa. It even seems His “madness” came in two separate waves, the first from 1523 til1525, the second from 1532 til His departure.
Ivar
Oh it seems to me like you are describing the horoscope of some mundane personality..I did not mean to be rude...but just wondering if this is the right approach to understand Mahaprabhu's personality and gauge his bhava.
Audarya-lila Dasa - July 20, 2005 9:37 pm
I don't know if it is 'hardcore' or not but I think it is pertinent to point out that Krsna makes a clear distinction between his appearance and activities and those of us who are conditioned and forced by our karma to take birth.
As far as parallels between Krsna lila and Gaura lila goes I believe the correct siddhanta is that our ideal is to join in the kirtana with Nimai Pandita at Srivasa angam, just as our ideal in to serve Radha Krsna in Vrndavana. Srivasa angam is right next to the yogapitha in Navadvipa.
Syamasundara - July 20, 2005 9:40 pm
There you go...
Actually I don't think Ivar meant as much, although I must confess reading that did impact me somewhat.
Ivar is not the first one to have calculated Mahaprabhu's chart, his father Jagannatha Misra was, and Bhaktivinoda Thakura also writes something based on the Lord's horoscope.
The Lord does so many "ordinary" things, from peeing on the floor out of spite for not finding the butter as a child, to accepting a guru, but everything is under his control and it happens purely for his pleasure; it doesn't diminish his supremacy one bit. That's his madhurya.
Reading someone's horoscope doesn't mean implying that he or she is influenced by the stars; reading the stars is much like speed reading (an art I never managed to master). In speed reading you don't read a word after the other, a line under the other, but you shift to glancing a page in a certain way and just know what it is about, and like that you can read a book in minutes, with even a better comprehension. The Coreans are big on that.
Anyway, similarly if you read the stars you have a glance at somebody's past, present and future, instead of living with him or her every day. Like I said before, time is not linear.
It would have been more awe-inspiring if at the moment of the Lord's appearance the stars had disappeared and nobody could have known what the sky looked like, but they were all there, so they might as well correspond with his life.
I would venture to say that reading the Lord's chart is not any more or less than a material and dry version of reading the Caitanya caritamrta (caritamrta= his nectarean activities): you know his activities, general personality, looks.
Syamasundara - July 20, 2005 9:48 pm
As far as parallels between Krsna lila and Gaura lila goes I believe the correct siddhanta is that our ideal is to join in the kirtana with Nimai Pandita at Srivasa angam, just as our ideal in to serve Radha Krsna in Vrndavana. Srivasa angam is right next to the yogapitha in Navadvipa.
Actually you are right. GM says many times that the associates of Sri Caitanya, starting with Nityananda prabhu, never liked him to be a sannyasi. That's his acarya lila, he took sannyasa to teach us all the path; he definitely didn't need to take sannyasa to experience premabhakti. So then he did have a purpose, like all the other avataras.
Now I'm a little lost... which is it?
Bhakta Ivar - July 21, 2005 4:27 pm
> hard core devotees getting on your case for making the Lord appear as under the influence of the stars, whereas he's is totally independent. The fact is that he does do whatever he wants, and that corresponds to certain celestial movements.
Many astrologers believe the stars influence us, but I don’t. I believe they describe, much like the words in a history book. They don’t describe karma (with all it’s subdivisions like prarabdha-karma etc.), just what happens, be it mundane or divine. And just like words cannot adequately describe the Lord’s pastimes (all poets have mentioned this in their writings), astrological delineations can’t either.
> Enscribed in a hexagone, tridents facing all directions to protect the Dhama (from what? Something more powerful than Krsna?), with the Divine Couple in the center of a lotus flower with thousands of petals, and a gopi in each petal, like bees in the hive. Sounds pretty static.
Definitely symbolism, most of which we do not understand. But that doesn’t matter, because symbolism is not for the intellect but for the soul. There are many books on sacred geometry (one of which quotes from Clarion Call magazine in one of its first chapters) and they discuss the spiritual dimension of shapes like the hexagone.
> Other than that. I didn't know that Neptune and Pluto were taken into consideration in Jyotish.
I never mentioned Jyotish. I do not limit myself to a fixed set of rules. And I wouldn’t have mentioned Uranus, Neptune or Pluto unless I was 100% certain that they are significant factors, especially as far as psychological and metaphysical issues are concerned. Just like there’s so much more knowledge of health than is contained in Ayurveda. What is mentioned in the Vedas was complete knowledge for the people of those days. But as people change, the limits of knowledge change too.
> PS Oh as far as the tridents or the dik pala murtis in Vrndavana, I think it's more to convey the idea that it's something very precious and confidential, not that it really needs protection.
They may also symbolize certain obstacles that prevent us from getting ‘there’.
> Oh it seems to me like you are describing the horoscope of some mundane personality..
Why? I described someone going into deeper stages of genuine spiritual madness. Does that sound mundane?
> but just wondering if this is the right approach to understand Mahaprabhu's personality and gauge his bhava.
Mahaprabhu is one of the few persons from those days whose time of birth is known, simply because he was born at the time of the eclipse, which is a historical fact. Most agree that astrology is a science given by God, and we have a time of birth which was not kept a secret by God, so I don’t see anything wrong with analyzing His birth chart. It’s not as inspiring as reading Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, but it can be useful.
The reason I gave this analysis was to show how His mood changed gradually. Not drastically, as if He was an avatara who was ‘replaced’ by some other avatara.
> I think it is pertinent to point out that Krsna makes a clear distinction between his appearance and activities and those of us who are conditioned and forced by our karma to take birth.
Certainly. But what does He mean when He makes that statement? Does He imply that He will not have a birth chart?
If God’s activities never correspond to a birth chart, it would mean He never takes ‘birth’ on Earth at all, but rather only appears in the hearts of human beings, either directly or through scriptural poetry, or both.
We know Ramachandra, Krsna and Mahaprabu from descriptions in Ramayana, Srimad-Bhagavatam and Caitanya-caritamrta, and Jesus from the Bible etc. The way we view them is the way the authors and their followers viewed them. Who they really were, or whether they exist(ed) at all, has become irrelevant! What happens in the hearts of worshippers is what really matters. It is in the human consciousness where He truly appears.
Similarly the spiritual world may be hexagonal, circular or without any limits, it may be heaven, the happy hunting grounds, a place where all forefathers remain forever, svar, Walhalla or what have you. How it is described will always be projections of previous or present cultural ideas, or ideals (and when several groups simultaneously have different descriptions, some author may even classify them: “Above the material world is this dhama, above which is this other dhama, and above that dhama is the supreme dhama”). Whatever description helps us, is fine. Ultimately no one can describe such a transcendent (or immanent!) reality accurately. Just like no one can adequately describe the experience of having been in Ben & Jerry’s. One must go there to personally see (and taste!) it.
Ivar
Syamasundara - July 21, 2005 6:11 pm
I wish. Ben & jerry and Haagen Daazs have all eggs or gelatine in them. But Breyer is gaudiya firendly 
GM like cookies and cream and butter-pecan among others.
SashidharaDasa - July 21, 2005 8:16 pm
> > Oh it seems to me like you are describing the horoscope of some mundane personality..
Why? I described someone going into deeper stages of genuine spiritual madness. Does that sound mundane?
> but just wondering if this is the right approach to understand Mahaprabhu's personality and gauge his bhava.
Mahaprabhu is one of the few persons from those days whose time of birth is known, simply because he was born at the time of the eclipse, which is a historical fact. Most agree that astrology is a science given by God, and we have a time of birth which was not kept a secret by God, so I don’t see anything wrong with analyzing His birth chart. It’s not as inspiring as reading Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, but it can be useful.
The reason I gave this analysis was to show how His mood changed gradually. Not drastically, as if He was an avatara who was ‘replaced’ by some other avatara.
Ivar
I think just use of some words in your post made me little disappointing...like "death" "his change of heart after meeting devotees" etc
I could not comprehend these, thinking Mahaprabhu as swayam Bhagavan
Syamasundara - July 21, 2005 11:14 pm
I keep not understanding. He did use quotation marks when he wrote death, and they have a specific meaning in written language.
The change of heart I understand even less how that could be disturbing.
Bhakta Ivar - July 22, 2005 4:14 pm
Indeed, "death" in quotation marks. And it is well known that Nimai had a change of heart when he met Isvara Puri, for example. It's not against the principles of lila for the Lord to have a change of heart. Indeed, it's what makes both Krsna lila and Caitanya so sweet, so dynamic, so human-like (yet truly divine).
Ivar
Bhakta Ivar - August 3, 2005 10:24 am
I found a good biography of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (by Satyaraja dasa, or Steven Rosen), and have noted down the different dates of His eternal pastimes. I will now compare these dates with my astrological analysis.
“From an astrological point of view, He must have had His first major change of heart, or change of thought actually, in 1507 and 1508, which would be when He was 21 or 22. At that time transitory Uranus moved over His Mercury (and sextile His 9th lord Mars).”
This seems to be a few years after He met Isvara Puri actually, because most biographies state that Vaisnava initiation took place in 1503, although “others say Vaisnava initiation took place in 1509, just a year before He took to the renounced order.”
According to the biographies Lakshmipriya died of a snakebite somewhere between 1501 and 1502. This corresponds to Uranus moving over His descendant, which shows sudden unexpected changes in one’s marriage (in modern society a typical transit for divorce). His father passed away in 1502, which corresponds to Uranus (sudden changes) moving over His Sun (father). Uranus moving over one’s Sun also shows a change of personality, which we know happened when He met Isvara Puri when He went to Gaya in 1503. Still, from an astrological point of view I cannot say He immediately plunged into deep levels of absorption. That started to gradually happen in June 1505, when Neptune transited His natal Mars. In 1506 Nitai came to meet the Lord for the first time.
“In March 1509 Pluto went stationary and then retrograde over His Neptune, which shows that at this time he experienced very deep mystical experiences.”
Again, some biographers mention Vaisnava initiation took place during this time. Probably both are true, i.e. He gave up His intellectual approach and took to bhakti-yoga in 1503, when He was only 17 years old, but started to experience and display deeper levels of absorption in 1509, awakening His desire for renunciation. Also from the point of view of vimsottari-dasha, Februari 1509 marked the beginning of Moon-Venus. Venus is placed in Mahaprabhu’s 9th house, the house of religion and devotion. Venus there shows love of God. This Moon-Venus dasha lasted until the end of 1510.
“In Januari 1910 His natal Moon, Sun and Jupiter were aspected by transitory Jupiter, who is named Guru in Sanskrit.”
At this time (februari 1910) He took to the renounced order.
“Thus somewhere during this period (09-1509 till 05-1511) He was initiated. Pluto again touched His Neptune in July and September 1510.”
Perhaps he did receive another type of initiation from Isvara Puri in 1509, but in any case, these were significant years, according to the biographies. He took sannyasa, then went travelling for one month, and then first visited Puri, where He met Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. Mahaprabhu fell unconscious in front of the Deities, probably the first recorded time this happened (?). Pluto going over natal Neptune can indicate very deep (Pluto) states of subtle awareness (Neptune).
In the spring of 1510 He went South, and met Ramananda Raya. Again, the ecstacy described by Krsnadasa Kaviraja and others perfectly fits the astrological indications. In July 1510 He visited Sri Rangam, where He stayed for catur-masya. See the quote above: “Pluto again touched His Neptune in July and September 1510.” This was an ecstatic time.
“In November 1511 … because Pluto now trined His Venus, He would meet many new friends (Venus) who had a deep and transforming impact (Pluto) on Him. Also He would come across poetry and other aesthetic expressions (Venus) with such an impact.”
This describes His travels through South India and back, during the vimsottari-dasha of Mars, His exalted 9th house lord. In 1511 He had not returned to Puri yet. He would return to Puri in 1512, in which the above mentioned transits occured once more. This was the time Maharaja Prataparudra was tested and then blessed. In 1513 Uranus conjuncted His natal Venus at that time, which shows more new friends. This was when He travelled to Vrindavan, but ended His journey in Ramakeli where He met Rupa and Sanatana.
“Skipping many years, let’s see the planetary positions as He went divinely mad. Again, I have no biography of Mahaprabhu nearby, so if others can verify these dates it would be very nice. March 1523 marks the first opposition of Neptune to His natal Moon.”
This is very interesting, because Satyaraja mentions that in 1522 Mahaprabhu considered His followers capable of continuing the movement without Him and “went into a state of continuous absorption (samadhi).”
Ivar
Swami - August 3, 2005 3:03 pm
In spite of thier being the same person, it is notable how different their charts are--Gaura and Krsna. Krsna is clearly the lover of many women being born under the influence of Rohini, which indicates deep involvement with sexual relationship that transcends social and traditional barriers. Whereas Guara is clearly a renunciate. Bringing this thread back on topic, it would be an interesting exercise to debunk the notion of gaura-nagara-bhava through anaylisis of Gaura and Krsna's astrological charts. Remember, although they are the same person, they are in different moods. Gaura is Rasaraja and mahabhava combined. To separate these two aspects in the name of "Rasaraja Guara," as the gaur-nagara advocates do, is to do away with Gaura altogether. Krsna dasa is clear when he says that God only tastes kanta bhava in parakiya as Krsna, not in any other form. And Vrindavana das is equally clear when he says, "The Lord was apt to indulge in indiscriminate, merciful behavior towards all, except that he never looked at a woman, even by a sidelong glance. It is known to all the world that he did not even allow the name of a woman to enter his ear. Those who are his real devotees, therefore, never address Sri Gauranga as 'Gauranga-nagari,' or the enjoyer of women. Although all forms of praise are applicable to the Lord, the wise only sing that which is in accordance with his nature."
Babhru Das - August 3, 2005 8:43 pm
This strikes me as so clear that the GN advocates would just have to go on with their own practice quietly, admitting (at best) that, although no one else may appreciate it (including Vrindava das and Krishna das), they just like it. Any attempt to justify it in light of the above verses comes off as nothing more than rationalization of personal taste that's not necessarily completely pure.
It seems this approach is a sort of folk practice that grew in the villages of Nadia, as did many of the lines of "worship" called apa-sampradaya by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.
Swami - August 3, 2005 10:47 pm
Here is something that B.B. Visnu Maharaja of Naraisngha Caitanya Matha just sent me. It is from a forthcoming book drawn from the transcribed talks of Pujyapada sridhara Maharaja. I don't have time to go though it and take out all the diacritics that show up here in weird characters, but those interested inthe subject should be able to get through it. The most interesting and provacative part is Srila Sridhara Maharaja's rejection of any gaura-nagara lines in the work of Locana dasa. This was the policy of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. For all we know, they were added in by someone else. Here it is:
Gaura is Not a Nagara
Viß√upriyå and Lakßmipriyå are considered to be the wedded consorts of Gaura-Nåråya√a in the mood of Vaiku√†ha rasa. That is externally connected with the yuga-avatåra, not with Rådhå-K®ß√a. Gaura-Nåråya√a is the yuga-avatåra, but with a connection to the higher plane. So, in navadvîpa-lîlå, the only consorthood that we find connected with Mahåprabhu is with Viß√upriyå and Lakßmipriyå.
The practice of Gaura-någara is not accepted by the bona-fide school of Çrî Caitanyadeva’s followers. The Gaura-någara advocates improperly think that Gaurå∫ga is an enjoyer, just as the K®ß√a of Bhågavatam. But the bona-fide school of Çrî Caitanyadeva’s followers do not accept that the practice of Gaura-någara is proper. There is a conflict of rasa. Our åcåryas, V®ndåvana Dåsa ˇhåkura, Kaviråja Gosvåmî, the Gosvåmîs and others, have rejected this idea of Gaura-någara. V®ndåvana Dåsa has rejected it wholesale in his Caitanya-bhågavata:
ei mata cåpalya karen sabå sane
sabe strî måtra nå dekhena d®ß†ikå√e
‘strî’ hena nå prabhu ei avatåre
çrava√e o nå karilå-vidita saµsåre
ataeva yata mahå-mahimå sakale
‘gaurå∫ga-någara’ hena stava nåhi bale
(CB. Ådi 15.28-30)
V®ndåvana Dåsa says, “Mahåprabhu never cast a glance towards girls in this life. He is not a någara because He came from a bråhma√a and åcårya family—K®ß√a came from a milk-man's clan. Mahåprabhu has come to show the position of an åcårya, and an åcårya may not have such misconduct. Otherwise, who will care for Him? Who will take Him as an åcårya if He shows such slack character mixing amongst the girls? So, He never showed that sort of conduct. He was very particular about that, very careful. He never, even through the corner of His eye, cast any glance towards any girls. He maintained very strict morality throughout His life."
We see that in gaura-lîlå there are three different sections. One section is more attached to gaura-lîlå, the magnanimous side. Then there are the devotees like Narahari Sarakåra ˇhåkura who are more attracted to k®ß√a-lîlå. A third section keeps the balance.
The followers of Narahari ˇhåkura could not tolerate that K®ß√a would come in the role of a sannyåsî. “We don't like this—we don't want to see You as a sannyåsî. You are our K®ß√a. Why have You come in this role? Are You not the hunter of the gopîs? Why have You come in the dress of a sage? All this is a sham! It is cheating! But we won’t be cheated—we have recognized who You are. We don’t like Your sannyåsî-veça and our camp won’t admit that You are a sannyåsî.”
But those who are in favor of gaura-lîlå say, “Who would care for your K®ß√a if our Gaurå∫ga did not preach about Him? It is only Gaurå∫ga who has made your K®ß√a popular. K®ß√a is a debauchee, a thief, a liar and whatnot—who would recognize Him if Gaurå∫ga did not stand and preach for your Master on His behalf. He has brought your K®ß√a to the public”
Only K®ß√a No Other
Afterwards, the followers of Narahari Sarakåra ˇhåkura had some misconception of Gaura-någari lîlå and could not conceive the true spirit of Narahari ˇhåkura, but began to preach that, “As Gauranga, He also mixed with so many ladies—He was also a någara like K®ß√a (Gaura-någari).”
These two things cannot go together—the åcårya and the enjoyer. One in the position of an åcårya may advocate the enjoyment of K®ß√a, and explain how this is the highest conception, and at what stage that is possible. Mahåprabhu came to do the work of a preceptor, a preacher—so He is not a någara, not an exploiter of the girls as we find in V®ndåvana. It cannot be—there is a conflict. It is incorrect to think that Mahåprabhu can take the position of an åcårya, and at the same time appear as a debauchee. This conflict of rasa is not possible. Entering the temple to worship the Deity, one may take his wife to help in the worship. But she must not make jokes with her husband while in the temple. That will be rasåbhåsa. A particular sober tone is necessary. In this way, Mahåprabhu has come in a serious mood to distribute the Holy Name of the Lord and divine love to the world. He is spreading K®ß√a consciousness as a preacher. Such a reverent position cannot coexist with the enjoying mood of Gaura-någara.
So, no one should consider that Gaurå∫ga was a frivolous boy who mixed with the girls in a loose way. This is explained by V®ndåvana Dåsa ˇhåkura in his Caitanya-bhågavata, the original book written on the life of Çrî Caitanyadeva. But later, Locana Dåsa wrote Caitanya-ma∫gala where we find some contamination of någari-bhåva. So, we are not fully in agreement with Locana Dåsa in this regard. And there is also Bhakti-ratnakåra, which was written two hundred years after Çrî Caitanyadeva—there also we find a tinge of Gaura-någari bhåva. Our Guru Mahåråja mentioned that we may take some aspects of geography and history from Bhakti-ratnakara but not the tattva, the ontological side. Even then, some of the history found in that book has been spoilt with ontological misconceptions. So, we are not to take everything from that book completely.
Rüpa Gosvåmî, Sanåtana Gosvåmî, Dåsa Gosvåmî, Kaviråja Gosvåmî. V®ndåvana Dåsa ˇhåkura, and so many others have given descriptions about Mahåprabhu, but no one mentioned Him as a någara.
Only K®ß√a can show that lîlå, no other! Even Nåråya√a and other incarnations of K®ß√a, never did so. K®ß√a is the only exception. So this is all imaginary—a foolish tendency to make k®ß√a-lîlå and gaura-lîlå seem more similar. In order to prove that Gaurå∫ga and K®ß√a are one and the same, this sort of imagination has been resorted to.
Bhakta Ivar - August 4, 2005 12:46 pm
“So this is all imaginary—a foolish tendency to make krishna-lila and gaura-lila seem more similar. In order to prove that Gauranga and Krsna are one and the same, this sort of imagination has been resorted to.”
Yes, ultimately we should just appreciate Gaura lila for what it is, a unique occurrence, a unique manifestation of transcendental pastimes. It doesn’t have to mirror Krsna lila in all respects (or maybe it does mirror: enjoyment is the opposite of renunciation). There are some books which go into great detail identifying all the persons in Gaura lila as being gopis, gopas etc. Sweet as the similarities may be, there will always be significant differences. And we may thus run into confusion. How can the simple cowherd girls now be great scholars? How can the enjoyer now be a renunciate?
However, Bhagavan Sri Krsna is said to be fully possessed of 6 qualities, one of them being renunciation. Ultimately Krsna did what He did to please the gopis, not to enjoy Himself. He pleased them, and they pleased Him.
> “Bringing this thread back on topic, it would be an interesting exercise to debunk the notion of gaura-nagara-bhava through analysis of Gaura and Krsna's astrological charts.”
It’s not certain when Sri Krsna was born exactly, at least it’s not as certain as Mahaprabhu’s chart. But what we do know is that little Nimai clearly had the chart of a renunciate, even though His parents wanted Him to get married. His natal Moon and ascendant are aspected by Mars and Saturn, which gives a detached mind.
> “Remember, although they are the same person, they are in different moods.
It seems that any avatara which displays the lila of birth (rather than the many short appearances of Narayana), has a unique personality. For example Ramachandra was the embodiment of righteousness and dharma, whereas Krsna came to show the supreme path of loving service which transcends dharma. Caitanya Mahaprabhu then came to establish the way we should approach this (i.e. not be adulterous or sensual ourselves, but appreciate such things in relation to Krsna). They may be considered moods, but they are moods which last for a lifetime, and thus they are also character traits. If indeed astrology applied to all of Them (indeed there are scriptural statements referring to the birth chart of each of Them), their way of thinking, feeling, acting and talking must have been different too, for basically the entire period between their appearance and disappearance (because that’s how astrology works). In that sense they are completely different persons, even though they are all seen as being the same. Even though they may have been like different characters played by the same actor, they are still distinct from eachother. The analogy doesn’t actually work that well, because we (or some) say Rama, Krsna and Caitanya are eternal realities, even having Their own separate abodes. So there cannot be role playing involved. Nimai first was a pandit, then He became a devotee, then He did experience ecstasy, then He did desire to renounce the world, then He did go divinely mad. It was never ‘as if’, because then it would not have been visible in the birth chart, or only as something not genuine.
The peers and associates shared many of the elements of Mahaprabhu’s birthchart. For example, I mentioned transit Pluto making a conjunction with His natal Neptune in the period between 1509-1511. Those of the same age group, like Gadadhara Pandit, must have experienced the same inner transformations around the same time. Thus the entire lila expresses the spiritual qualities of Neptune, like compassion, love and a world beyond the senses. (This phenomenon also occured in the late 60s and early 70s, when transit Uranus went conjunct the natal Neptune of whoever was now 20 years of age. Everyone experimented with instant (Uranus) enlightenment (Neptune) through LSD and similar drugs. It’s not possible to replicate the Summer of Love, because the astrological times have changed, just like the Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON were unique manifestations of certain time periods).
My conclusion is that Caitanya Mahaprabhu was who He was, unique to the times in which He appeared.
Ivar