Tattva-viveka
NOD - Assignment 1
Babhru Das - August 9, 2005 2:53 am
The first assignment should not be too challenging. Read Srila Prabhupada’s Preface. As you do so, make whatever notes seem useful to you. Write down any questions you have or that you think may open productive discussion. Write down any relevant thoughts or realizations your reading yields. Keep in mind two things. One is the history of Srila Rupa Gosvami, Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and NoD. The other is the purpose(s) of Nectar of Devotion. How many specific purposes does Srila Prabhupada give for writing this book?
Also, write a couple of paragraphs concisely exploring Srila Prabhupada’s mood and mission in relationship to the principle given by Rüpa Gosvami regarding elevating everyone to the position of a gosvami. How does it affect your present life in Krishna consciousness? Do you really think that everyone can become a gosvami? What does studying this book have to do with our lives, and what do you hope to accomplish by this study?
We should be able to begin our discussion next Monday, the 15th. If anyone has any questions about the process, please don't hesitate to ask me.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 16, 2005 12:28 am
We should be able to begin our discussion next Monday, the 15th.
I guess I will start, because it’s been a little quiet around here, besides, today is ekadasi, so it's a pretty auspicious day to start studying.
According to NOD Preface, Srila Rupa Gosvami’s goal was twofold -- to give guidance to devotees (rupanugas) thus educating and elevating them to the post of gosvami (anyone who knows the science of Krsna and is engaged in the service is higher then brahmana by birth); and establish cult of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu based on authoritative references (evidence) from various revealed scriptures. Srila Rupa Gosvami analyzes the various stages of bhakti as a methodical procedure resulting in love of God.
Srila Prabhupada’s goal was to explain the process of devotional service which gives eternal engagement in bhakti-rasa and teach us how to love Krsna in five different transcendental mellows. Prabhupada wanted to engage young Westerners who knew little about Vaisnava tradition, he seems to target “class of man completely confused and frustrated in life” who in 60s where hippies (NOD was published in 1970). The Preface talks about general propensity of living entities to love someone (which seems to be reminiscent of “don't you want somebody to love” by Jefferson Airplane) and concludes that our love can only be fully satisfied when it is reposed in Krsna. NOD is a summary study of Rupa Gosvami’s work -- Prabhupada’s goal was to provide his disciples an essential understanding of the practices and ideals of Krsna consciousness, make it easy to read for a neophyte and give overall idea what Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is about.
My hope is to increase my sraddha and become more nistha by studying tattva.
Babhru Das - August 16, 2005 3:11 am
I thought we might be a little slow getting started this week because of Rathaytra and ekadashi. Thanks, Nanda-tanuja, for getting us started.
Guru-nistha Das - August 16, 2005 4:18 am
Question 1: How many specific purposes does Srila Prabhupada give for writing this book?
1. Srila Prabhupada gives one main purpose for writing NoD and connected to that purpose, he gives five purposes that are different aspects of the main purpose.
The main reason for Writing NoD is to engage people in bhakti-rasa, or devotional service. Srila Prabhupada writes, "This eternal engagement in bhakti-rasa can be understood by a serious student upon studying The Nectar of Devotion." The five purposes that are different aspects of the main one are:
a) to learn to direct our love to the center and origin of all love and that way learn to love and respect everything and everyone else. Srila Prabhupada writes, "The Nectar of Devotion teaches us the science of loving every one of the living entities perfectly by the easy method of loving Krsna."
to aquire real knowledge of reality by turning towards the absolute. Prabhupada writes, "The Nectar of Devotion will teach us how to turn the one switch that will immediately brighten everything, everywhere."
c) to end the misery of material existence and desire, which is making even the citizens of the world's wealthiest country, the USA, unhappy. Prabhupada writes, "I am appealing herewith to such confused men to learn the art of devotional service as directed in The Nectar of Devotion, and I am sure that the fire of material existence burning within their hearts will be immediately extinguished."
d) to fulfill our desires and live perfectly happy forever. Prabhupada says, "The Nectar of Devotion will give us practical hints how we can live in this material world perfectly engaged in devotional service and thus fulfill all our desires in this life and the next."
e) to further strengthen those persons' practice and faith who are already engaged in devotional service. Prabhupada writes, "The Nectar of Devotion is specifically presented for persons who are now engaged in the Krsna consciousness movement."
Question 2: Also, write a couple of paragraphs concisely exploring Srila Prabhupada’s mood and mission in relationship to the principle given by Rüpa Gosvami regarding elevating everyone to the position of a gosvami. How does it affect your present life in Krishna consciousness? Do you really think that everyone can become a gosvami? What does studying this book have to do with our lives, and what do you hope to accomplish by this study?
2. Srila Prabhupada's mood was to srongly push and encourage people to go back to Godhead in this lifetime and obviously you have to be a goswami, a master of your senses, to be able to do that. Like Guru Maharaja has said, the spiritual world is a land of gurus.
It's also interesting, that Srila Prabhupada's preac
hing was clearly directed to neophytes, because the western world had had no previous exposure to the bhakti tradition, but nowadays it seems like many of his disciples have settled for the general, ABC teachings and stick to them as the all-in-all. If spiritual life is progressive, it's hard to imagine that everyone will become goswamis like that.
Personally, I believe that everyone can become a goswami- at some point. But not everybody in this lifetime (I guess that's kind of obvious).
It says in the Bhagavatam that once you have actually overcome the influence of the material world, it seems as easy to transcend as to jump over the water that is contained in a calf's hoof print. I guess for people like Srila Prabhupada and Sri Rupa Goswami who are on that stage, it seems like everybody can actually become a goswami, right now in this lifetime, because everyone are potentially capable of it, but for us for whom our conditioning feels like a shoreless sea, it's a different story.
The way this affects my present life in Krsna Consciousness is that I try to see my situation more through the eyes of my guru than from my own angle of vision. He sees the potential for bhakti in us and sees how petty our conditioning is, whereas from our point of view our situation is hopeless. I don't believe I'm going to be a goswami in this life, but I try my best to live up to the potential my guru maharaja sees in me.
I hope to accomplish a clearer and theoretically more precise picture of what this whole thing is really about that we are involved in. How does it develop, what are the developmental stages and where am I. It has got a lot to do with our lives if we are interested in knowing where we are at and at least theoretically understand what we are heading for.
Babhru Das - August 16, 2005 5:36 am
And please note that we're not just turning in an assignment here. The assignment should be merely a catalyst for discussion. So if anyone has questions or comments about anyone else's contribution, please feel free to weigh in. And also don't hesitate to share anything else that came up in your notes, your mind, or your heart (which is where we hope much of the activity will be) as you read and pondered the Preface.
Babhru Das - August 16, 2005 5:41 am
I try to see my situation more through the eyes of my guru than from my own angle of vision. He sees the potential for bhakti in us and sees how petty our conditioning is, whereas from our point of view our situation is hopeless. I don't believe I'm going to be a goswami in this life, but I try my best to live up to the potential my guru maharaja sees in me.
I really liked this because of its candor and because Swami's mood, which is, as far as I can see, is identical to Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Sridhar Maharaja's, is very strongly demonstrated. We can see the effect of sadhu sanga here. We often saw that Srila Prabhupada actually sees the potential in us that Guru-nistha mentions earlier in his post; the stories illustrating this are legion.
Babhru Das - August 16, 2005 5:47 am
I like the way you put this. I think it was Swami who expressed his belief that if Srila Prabhupada had had more time with us, he would likely have undertaken a translation of Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu.
I also like your reference to Airplane's "Somebody to Love." Turiya das and I did a radio show every Sunday morning on KPOI-FM in Honolulu in 1970 & '71. Sometimes we would open the show with a piece of contemporary music that we used to establish the theme of that day's show. I remember that we once used the Stones' "Satisfaction." And once we used "Somebody to Love" to set the scene for a discussion of what love really is. Boy, I wish we had tapes of those shows! (Or maybe not . . .)
Vrindavandas - August 16, 2005 6:17 am
Although there may be several explanations and reasons why Prabhupada wrote NOD, I feel that they are all sub-reasons under the main purpose. I have written down some quotes that I feel best express Prabhupada’s mood regarding NOD.
“Our love can be fully satisfied only when it is reposed in Krsna. This theme is the sum and substance of NOD…”
“NOD teaches us the science of loving everyone of the living entities perfectly by the easy method of loving Krsna.”
With this being said, it seems that Prabhupada’s main purpose in writing NOD was to teach the devotees how to love Krsna and be engaged in devotional service.
“NOD will give us practical hints how we can live in this material world perfectly engaged in devotional service…NOD is specifically presented for persons who are now engaged in Krsna Consciousness movement… The NOD teaches all men how to perform the simple and natural method of loving Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead…NOD will teach us how to turn the one switch that will immediately brighten everything, everywhere. One who does not know this method is missing the point of life…The root cause of our dissatisfaction is that our dormant loving propensity has not been fulfilled.”
Prabhupada explains in the preface that Rupa Goswami prepared the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu for our guidance. Prabhupada’s mood and mission is based on the adherence to the authority of Rupa Goswami. “The present Krsna consciousness movement is also based on the authority of Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada.” Srila Prabhupada goes on to say that because we are following in the line of Rupa Goswami, we are sometimes also called “rupanugas, or followers in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada.”
Prabhupada felt that people who are involved in the present Krsna consciousness movement “may take advantage of this great literature and be very solidly situated in Krsna consiousness.”
Srila Prabhupada’s mood seemed to be very much directed towards teaching the members of the Krsna consciousness movement how to differentiate between mundane rasa and bhakti rasa. His definition and concept of bhakti rasa has to do with the practioner experiencing the mellow (relationship) within bhakti which Srila Prabhupada defines as “devotional service.” To me this is an interesting point because most people/scholars define bhakti as “devotion”. Srila Prabhupada, in all of his writings, makes a point to explain his mood of bhakti being devotional service, or action in loving (devotion). This is an important point because Srila Prabhupada’s mood of understanding Rupa Goswami was that of action (service). Prabhupada defines bhakti rasa as the mellow relished in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. He also says that because bhakti rasa is perpetual, it is called amrita.
In a 1974 letter, Prabhpada had this to say about the term goswami: “Goswami means controlling the senses and always glorifying Krsna by varieties of engagement in devotional service.” Prabhupada’s mood and mission is evident in this statement and confirms his passion for writing NOD. Srila Prabhupada said that the subject matter of NOD is bonafide activities in Krsna consciousness, therefore, NOD is being presented to give us examples of activities that will have an eternally positive effect on our spiritual path. Studying NOD will result in elevating from the material condition to spiritual status resulting in the devotee being purified of all designations and contaminations.
It seems reasonable that following the program Srila Prabhupada has set up and especially studying deeply and applying the NOD to ones life, anyone can become a goswami. On a personal level, I have had new doors open up to me from just studying the preface over the last week. In studying NOD, I hope to accomplish Srila Prabhupada’s desire of having all practitioners of Krsna consciousness come to the level of goswami and become perpetually absorbed in serving Krsna.
Igor - August 16, 2005 3:01 pm
Transcedental studing of Nectar of devotion ki jay!
In Svagatam post, Swami wrote
"Tattva-viveka means deliberation (viveka) on truth (tattva). This exercise is necessary for devotees. Let them study the philosophical canvass on which the art of Krsna is drawn with a view to fuel their practice with the appropriate conceptual orientation to their ideal."
Nectar of devotion is book that we should study in association of devotees, and this discussion is what we need because it's contest can "fuel our practice with the appropriate conceptual orientation to our ideal".
Nanda-tanuja wrote " My hope is to increase my sraddha and become more nistha by studying tattva. "That is also my hope, that by studding Nectar of devotion in association of devotees, some sradha will come, some taste toward krsna-katha.
So here are some notes about NOD Preface
At the beginning Srilla Prabhupada is giving us short history of NOD, which is significant. Lord Gauranga appeared to distribute pure love for Krsna and essence of this sublime science is presented in Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu.
Guru nistha, Nanda-tanuja ,Vrindavana and Babhru gave very nice explanations about Preface, so I will add just little more ( for exercise)
Question arose - Why Srilla Prabhupada wrote Nectar of devotion? There are several reasons, but Prabhupada himself gave us explanation -" It is only for our guidance that Srilla Rupa Goswami prepared his book Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, which is now presented in the form of The Nectar of Devotion."
Furthermore, he also gave us the results of such studding - " Persons engaged in Krsna consiousness movement may take advantage of this great literature and be very solidly situated in Krsna
Consiousness. "
It is very important reason why Srilla Prabhupada gave us NOD - to become solidly situated.
Then we can ask - So how we can become solidly situated simply by reading NOD? And answer to that question is another reason why Prabhupada wrote NOD - "This eternal engagement in bhakti-rasa can be understood by a serious student upon studding The Nectar of devotion. "
We can only become solidly situated if we develop real understanding of Krsna, His eternal associates, rasas etc. if we develop our natural love for Krsna. We can find such valuable nectar in NOD.
So, theme of NOD, and its core is - sublime love, it teaches us how to love Krsna.
Babhru Das - August 16, 2005 5:14 pm
Igor, I really appreciate your citing Swami's welcome to the site. I think those quotations help us remember how this activity fits here at TV and brings us back to our purpose in associating together on this site.
I also like this: "So, theme of NOD, and its core is - sublime love, it teaches us how to love Krsna. "
Sometimes, NoD was called ISKCON's law book. The real law we see in this book is love.
Shyam Gopal Das - August 16, 2005 5:50 pm
just a thought:
What struck me especially from reading the preface was Srila Prabhupada's description of bhakti-rasa. The concept of rasa appears all fresh in the way Prabhupada describes it: "that force which drives the philantropist, the householder and the nationalist is called rasa, or a kind of mellow (relationship) whose taste is very sweet." Though very obvious it opened up a new perspective for me. It shows me how rasa is a sort of flow state that keeps one going. How service is a natural state for the soul, every person is searching for it from the businessman engaged in his practices to the householder. How service is not something foreign imposed on the soul, but rather the expression of the soul's potential. It is perfectly engaged when directed towards Krishna, because its taste is endless compared to the working man's need for weekend.
Hari-priya Dasi - August 17, 2005 4:01 pm
I found the idea that everyone can be a goswami quite encouraging. It seems like Srila Prabhupada is saying that “Look, this movement has been open for many kind of people even before our time. Six goswamis were some kind of outcast of braminic society because of their involvement with Muslim government. Haridasa Thakura came from a different religious background. This message is for everyone. Everyone can learn and grow spiritually.”
I was wondering though, that if goswami is defined as someone who is master of her/his senses, shouldn’t the aim be higher in a way? One can control the mind and the senses and still be far away from loving God.
On the other hand, if goswami refers to a person who is living in renounced order of life and who is teaching theology and philosophy of Krishna-consciousness, I don’t think that’s necessary for everyone.
I also liked Srila Prabhupada’s emphasis on interrelationship between knowing Krishna and knowing oneself. They are like two sides of the same coin.
Ps. By studying Nectar of Devotion in an association of devotees I hope to learn some theoretical basics of Krishna-Consciousness. I also hope to get more stability in my chanting and studying vaishnava-literature.
Babhru Das - August 17, 2005 7:30 pm
I like Syam Gopal's "flow state" idea. When I would read Czikszentmihlayi's stuff on flow, I often thought about how spiritual realization, experiencing rasa, must be the real flow state.
As far as Hanna's implied question about what a goswami is, I think we have to conclude that it's someone who has been able to subdue the urges of the senses and the mind. And I think you're on to something about controlling the senses and being far from loving God. Ultimately we can only really succeed at controlling the senses by engaging them in cultivating a higher taste, expreiencing rasa. So someone may appear able to repress sense desire for some time, but he or she will ultimately be driven to act because we're inherently active entities. The real thing is not pushing the mind or senses down, but using them to further our experience of our actual identity. As Srila Prabhupad says, "Lord Chaitanya's principle is universal." Our business as human beings it ultimately to find that object of our inherent propensity to love who is actually capable of reciprocating to our satisfaction.
Audarya-lila Dasa - August 18, 2005 4:39 am
The thing that really struck me in reading the preface was how Srila Prabhupada made his case from the very beginning about how Mahaprabhu's movement can elevate even the lowest people in society (whether that be based on birth, actions, or any other consideration) to the highest position. He uses the examples of Rupa, Sanatana and Haridas Thakur to illustrate the point. This, of course, gives all of us great hope.
It's really such an important point - a point which even within the mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wasn't understood by everyone as evidenced by the response of some of Srila Prabhupada's god brothers to his western disciples.
I think that Srila Prabhupada had the unique opportunity to see this principle in action. He saw how hippies with very little moral bearing or social decorum were turned into dedicated students willing to adopt the highest standards overnight by the influence of nama sankirtana. I can only imagine how much joy Srila Prabhupada felt seeing this amazing transformation take place in such unregulated sense enjoyers and how much it must have increased his own faith.
Regarding the title goswami - I would guess that many deeper meanings than 'controller of the senses' can be drawn out from it. I certainly felt that Srila Prabhupada was speaking of the term in terms of bhakti rasa and saranagati in the preface.
I hope to gain a stronger theorhetical understanding of bhakti rasa and I also am participating to relish the insights and realizations of all the devotees as we read this important book together. I hope to be able to improve my own sadhana by trying to dive deeply into this book.
Babhru Das - August 18, 2005 7:28 am
Now, this is thought provoking! I have to go back to the Preface and read it again with this idea--especially saranagati--in mind.
Shyam Gopal Das - August 18, 2005 3:53 pm
I like Syam Gopal's "flow state" idea. When I would read Czikszentmihlayi's stuff on flow, I often thought about how spiritual realization, experiencing rasa, must be the real flow state.
I remember reading Czikszentmihlayi book first and thinking: this must be ignorance, ignoring the world and just being absorbed in oneself/one's work or activities. It read like a sort of forgetfulness and to me it seemed not applicable to Krishna consciousness. Reading Prabhupada's description of rasa, therefore, brought to me a new light. But it still makes me wonder how forgetful the gopis are? how much are they in flow so to say?
Audarya-lila Dasa - August 19, 2005 12:28 am
The only place where Srila Prabhupada mentions the word goswami in the preface (other than in the names of some great acharyas) is on the first page in two places. In neither case does he give the definition as 'one who is in control of his/her senses.
Here is the first one:
"It is the grace of Lord Chaitanya that He accepted these two exalted personalities as His disciples and raised them to the position of goswamis, the highest position of brahminical culture."
This one sure appears like he is talking about something much higher than control of the senses.
Here is the second one:
"The principle of Lord Chaitanya's movement in educating and elevating everyone to the exalted position of a goswami is taught in The Nectar of Devotion."
Now, if you look over the entire text of the preface you will find that what is taught in The Nectar of Devotion is the science of Krsna consciousness and specifically - bhakti rasa. That's why I drew the conclusion that Srila Prabhupada was speaking of a much higher principle than sense control when he said that Lord Chaitanya's movement is elevating everyone to the exalted position of goswami.
Indeed, it is not sense control that elevates one to the highest standard of brahminical culture, it is saranagati and 100% engagement in devotional service. As you said Babhru, the sense control taught in BRS is to use the senses in Krsna's service. This is a very important point because we are seeking devotion, not renunciation and sense control without bhakti is not at all what Rupa Goswami is attempting to teach us. jnana karmady anavrtam.
Babhru Das - August 19, 2005 3:47 am
Thanks, Audarya-lila. I like your reading of "goswami" in this context. It brings us back to an essential element of this "law book": the law it addresses is the law of love. We get through the rules-&-regs part pretty quickly--quickly enough that we would kind of have to try hard to get stuck there.
Guru-nistha Das - August 19, 2005 4:02 am
Indeed, it is not sense control that elevates one to the highest standard of brahminical culture, it is saranagati and 100% engagement in devotional service. As you said Babhru, the sense control taught in BRS is to use the senses in Krsna's service. This is a very important point because we are seeking devotion, not renunciation and sense control without bhakti is not at all what Rupa Goswami is attempting to teach us. jnana karmady anavrtam.
I absolutely agree. This whole "controller of the senses" issue probably started from my writing and I want to clarify that I was just refering to the direct meaning of the word (go=senses, swami=master) and not trying to say that that is the highest meaning of the word goswami as used by Srila Prabhupada in the preface.
And as Babhru Prabhu pointed out, the Gaudiya stance is that no one can really be the master of his/her senses and the mind without using them in devotional service, so the fact that a goswami is a person who can control his senses is just a side-effect of possessing bhakti, anyway. Right?
Dhiralalita - August 19, 2005 5:21 pm
Here is my assignment. Sorry about the delay. Too busy painting and teaching art.
At the time of Rupa and Sanatan Goswami, The Hindu society was a strict cast culture, where the brahmanas were very respected by the Hindus. However the population was under Muslin rulers and it divided people. The two brothers, Rupa and Sanatan were outcast for working for a muslin ruler, even so they belonged to the highest cast of Hindu society: the brahmanas.
They seem to have come to this world to break all the rules of their time, to show the vaishnavas that a vaishnava does not belong to any cast, and to teach us what kind of surrender it takes to come to Krishna.
Later on their acquired the title of Goswamis by the grace of Lord Caitanya, the highest rank in vaishnavas status. But vaishnavas were a minority and such a title is more a description of their stage of renunciation than a compensation for what they gave up to go join Lord Caitanya. They were recognized as goswamis or masters of their senses. Common people and neophytes are very much attached to recognition or positions in this material world. At the time of Rupa Goswami, a brahmana was very much respected and had a lot of sway on his society. To break the rules of such an ashram was very grave. When Rupa and Sanatana went to work for the Muslin ruler they were outcast. They belonged to a well to do family, but gave up this connection to apparently get a high post. They lost their cast. There is nothing more unsettling for a condition soul than loosing one’s high position in society. Everybody criticizes you, family and friends talk behind your back: they may disown you. But the two brothers did not just stop there. They broke the rules of their newly acquired society and friends and even risked imprisonment, in order to go join Lord Caitanay. They did not join Him in the hope to be made into some hotshot position again, but to give up everything for Him. By these actions, they teach us about renunciation. What they did was unimaginable for their time. They abandoned everything to become mendicants. Goswami may be a special title, for a person who controls their senses, but it has nothing to do with this world. It is not a position acquired for recognition. It is a true state of advancement and to become Goswamis ourselves is not so cheap, as shown by Rupa and Sanatana’s story. Are we ready to break the rules of society to get this title? Are we ready as Srila Sriddhar Maharaja says to “die to live”?
It might take many life times to become a goswami_that is say to come into control of our senses.
This NOD written by Srila Prabhupada, a summary study of the Bhakti-Rasamrita-Sindhu by Rupa Goswami, is all about bhakti-rasa, and that is what I hope to understand better. My hope is that study will bring some more insights for my progress in Krishna consciousness, as Srila Prabhupada explains: this NOD will help us progress from a material platform to a spiritual one. This book takes us steps by steps from the stage of following regulative principles to a more spontaneous devotional service, to a final relationship with Krishna in one of the 5 rasas.
Question: (Inspired by SP’s own words in his preface)
What is the use of trying to maintain a family when at the time of death we won’t be able to hold on to this family?
Audarya-lila Dasa - August 20, 2005 12:53 am
My own experiences lately in family life have been difficult, to say the least. The only reason I can see to try to maintain family is in service to Guru and Krsna. We are all duty bound by our ashrama and as a grhasta I feel that even though I often don't see the impact in terms of helping my family to love and serve Krsna, I know that it is my service to do the best I can to love them and help them. Mostly I try to do that by example (which is admittedly less than ideal - but my hope and prayer is always to improve a little each day).
I'll share a little story from a recent conversation I had with my daughter Christina on our way home from Audarya this past weekend. The background of the story is that the teenage years of my kids have been very trying on them and my wife and I. My wife is currently living seperately from the three of us. While driving away from Audarya I told my daughter in a joking way that maybe I would leave the family and live at Audarya and let Sandra take over the parenting. My daughter said she would send hate mail to the ashrama every day if I did that. But she also said something more significant - she said that in her opinion that would be totally against everything that Guru Maharaja stands for. I agreed with her and told her that although I personally would love to live at the ashrama I would never entertain abandoning my duty to my family. As it stands now my family can visit with me and they love the ashrama and all the devotees - a very favorable position to be in I would say.
I know that you weren't implying that devotees should abandon their families Dhiralalita, but I couldn't help but react to the question in this manner. In general I totally agree with the concept that we should strive to make each moment count and not get caught up in our material designations and situations.
The other thing about family life that I am SLOWLY learning is that I am in this ashrama for a reason and I have a lot of lessons to learn that I personally couldn't learn in another situation. The biggest ones for me right now are detachment, patience, calmness, freedom from anger and genuine empathy. All of you who have or have had teenagers can, no doubt relate - of course anyone who has been a teenager can relate as well if they can truly put themselves in the role of parenting themselves through the troubled teen years...
Swami - August 20, 2005 2:02 pm
go = senses or cows
swami = master or husband
goswami = one enegaged in cow husbandry
Syamasundara - August 20, 2005 3:26 pm
Hehe I thought of that this morning, but how to apply it to Rupa or Sanatana?
At the same time, it does remind me of the concept of pastor of souls, and pastor means herder, and the kaustubha jewel that Visnu carries on his chest and symbolizes all the souls has the shape of a calf... hmmmmm interesting.
Babhru Das - August 20, 2005 3:37 pm
I love this! Considering my family's history of dairy farming, it would require only a little (bizarre) word jugglery to come up with a very odd line of goswamis.
I also like Syamasundara's idea of a pastor of souls.
Babhru Das - August 20, 2005 10:31 pm
There's one more thing I think is worth noting in the Preface. Srila Prabhupada writes, "Bhakti means "devotional service." He's not satisfied with defining it as devotion; instead, he makes it clear that bhakti is active, dynamic, and progressive. I'll probably bring this up again when we discuss the Introduction, because it is so characteristic of Srila Prabhupada (not unique, but certainly part and parcel of his sense of Krishna consciousness). In the Introduction, he describes bhakti as "a sort of cultivation." As anyone who has grown anything can attest, successul cultivation requires regular, diligent activity, always checking on progress, always with an eye to the goal.
I just spoke with an old friend and Godsister of our who lives in San Diego. By "Old friend" I mean that we've known her a very long time. My wife has known Ratnavrinda since she moved into the temple in 1971 or '72. She is also 84 years old, so she's old in that way, too. She mentioned that she intends to get together with a couple of the younger girls in the San Diego devotee community (they're in their mid to late 40s, I guess) who have slackened in their practice. One claims she's too busy (although she has been unemployed for a while), and the other says she has lots of doubts. The latter has hardly even been to visit the local temple, where her husband is very active, for many years. Ratnavrinda asked about their practice, and in both cases it was minimal to nil. I immediately said, "No wonder! Prabhupada describes bhakti as a sort of cultivation, which means regular effort. You can't just put some seeds out in the dirt and expect to come back in three months and find eggplant, tomatoes, squash, spinach, chard, etc. thriving! You have to plant them carefully, water, weed, and fertilize them, and check on them all the time to make sure they're growing well." Anyway, I think she intends to give them a little motherly advice, as is her inclination, and see if she can't spur them back into action.
Anyway, we'll almost certainly discuss this point more as we work on the next lesson.
Babhru Das - August 21, 2005 7:05 am
No worries, Dhira-lalita. If you've been painting what I think you've been painting, there's nothing to apologize for (not that there would be anyway--did you think I'd lower your grade?).
That last question, together with your quotation from Srila Sridhar Maharaja about dying to live, wil probably different effects on devotees in different stages of life. For younger devotees whose families are still young, many of the reasons were given by Audarya-lila. Ultimately, the attempt is futile if its focus is simply material survival. However, our example of steadiness (even better--progress) in our spiritual practice while accepting the responsibilities appropriate to our circumstances will yield (perhaps eventually) emotional and spiritual growth. And a side benefit may be, as Audarya sees in his kids, that the family's appreciation creates even greater spiritual opportunities for them in the future. Nevertheless, even when we're younger, we need to keep the ultimate situation always in our minds. That way, when our situation changes , and it seems more appropriate to change ashrams (not the case for everyone, but it should be for some), we may move more gracefully to the next stage.
Bhrigu - August 21, 2005 4:10 pm
Being so late, I feel that others have already said most that there is to say, but I wish to add a couple of things that struck my eye while reading the preface. The first is how Prabhupada so skilfully alternates between describing the need for bhakti-rasa in negative terms (if not, may not be reborn as human), positive (the light to light up everything), to finally bring it down to a particular historical context: to give solace to the frustrated hippies of America, the richest country on earth. Also otherwise, Prabhupada gives contemporary examples, something that I remember struck me when I first read his books. This person is not only rehashing some old dogma, but applying it to the world of today! Something that our Swami of course also does.
The second thing is the personal note that Prabhupada ends on. He writes that the book is primarily meant for the members of his movements, and then he singles out Sriman Jayananda Brahmacari for special thanks, as well as ISKCON Press. Was there a special reason for thanking precisely Jayananda at this point? He speaks of his disciples spreading the movement, and in that connection, you would imagine that he would have thanked some of the big Maharajas. Instead, he chose Jayananda. Do you know why, Babhru?
Babhru Das - August 21, 2005 6:43 pm
Jayananda may have given him some money for the book's publication. That would be my first guess.
Swami - August 21, 2005 7:23 pm
Hehe I thought of that this morning, but how to apply it to Rupa or Sanatana?At the same time, it does remind me of the concept of pastor of souls, and pastor means herder, and the kaustubha jewel that Visnu carries on his chest and symbolizes all the souls has the shape of a calf... hmmmmm interesting.
Syama, what do you think gopis (milk maids) do for a living?
Syamasundara - August 21, 2005 8:51 pm
Babhru Das - August 22, 2005 2:43 am
Here's what my older daughter, Krishnamayi, who is participating by email, sent a couple of weeks ago with regard to the question of becoming a gosvami. I thought I might share this here on TV, since I didn't get to share it with the local devotees.
The question that hit me first was, "Do I think I could become a Gosvawmi?" I guess thats the million dollar question isn't it? Here I am, Mayi schmoe, and do I think I can become a gosvami? I think my first answer would be Heck yeah! But then it gets complicated, and I realize that that’s just a bluff to cover up a fear. Actually, deep down I don't think it’s possible or realistic. I always thought that the Gosvamis were special souls. . . . As far as I know I am not particularly special; could I possibly hope to be on the same level? And here is the scariest thought--if I don't think its possible, what the Heck am I going to do? And why do I practice what little sadhana I do practice? What is the point?
Luckily for me, I feel that Prabhupada answers that question in the preface. Whether I believe I can become a Gosvami, Prabhupada believes that I can, and that is a huge reason to give it a shot. If you have one person who believes in you and is on your side, that is big and can make all the difference in the world. He sets an amazing tone of conviction i.e. this will happen; he even says "I am sure" it will.
Krishnamayi grew up in ISKCON, was a stronger devotee than just about anyone in the temple when she was a teenager, and went through a crisis of faith in her second year of college. She emerged with her own faith in Krishna consciousness, not just the religion she learned from her folks. She has a solid sadhana for someone in her position, chanting a fixed number of rounds daily and engaging in simple worship every day as well. She and her partner now live in Bozeman, Montana, where there seem to be no other devotees. They'll soon by moving to Park City, Utah, so I hope the devotees at the Spanish Fork temple, which is about an hour or so away, will turn out to be open, warm, honest, and down to earth. What will turn her off would be narrow-mindedness and hypocrisy (the other big sin for her is child abuse of any kind). Too bad they're not moving to Santa Rosa! 
This candor and lack of artifice are very characteristic of her.
Babhru Das - August 22, 2005 3:27 am
Are we about ready for the next assignment?
Audarya-lila Dasa - August 22, 2005 5:47 am
Just a quick side note - Caru was the temple president in Berkeley when I joined and Vaibhavi played a significant role as well. They run the Spanish Fork temple. Vatsala helped build the original house/temple and about two years ago the Temple proper was completed. Caru is a really wonderful devotee - I think your daughter will like them both very much. They raise Llamas on the property - something my kids found loads of fun when we visited about 5 years ago.
Caru is a very warm and knowledgable devotee. He is fairly charismatic and develops excellent relationships with community leaders wherever he resides. The Krsna consciousness movement is looked upon very favorably in Spanish Fork due to his sincere efforts and good natured outreach.
Igor - August 22, 2005 2:10 pm
Are we about ready for the next assignment?
Yes, Oui, Si, Da 
Swami - December 11, 2005 4:03 pm
I guess I will start, because it’s been a little quiet around here, besides, today is ekadasi, so it's a pretty auspicious day to start studying.
According to NOD Preface, Srila Rupa Gosvami’s goal was twofold -- to give guidance to devotees (rupanugas) thus educating and elevating them to the post of gosvami (anyone who knows the science of Krsna and is engaged in the service is higher then brahmana by birth); and establish cult of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu based on authoritative references (evidence) from various revealed scriptures. Srila Rupa Gosvami analyzes the various stages of bhakti as a methodical procedure resulting in love of God.
Srila Prabhupada’s goal was to explain the process of devotional service which gives eternal engagement in bhakti-rasa and teach us how to love Krsna in five different transcendental mellows. Prabhupada wanted to engage young Westerners who knew little about Vaisnava tradition, he seems to target “class of man completely confused and frustrated in life” who in 60s where hippies (NOD was published in 1970). The Preface talks about general propensity of living entities to love someone (which seems to be reminiscent of “don't you want somebody to love” by Jefferson Airplane) and concludes that our love can only be fully satisfied when it is reposed in Krsna. NOD is a summary study of Rupa Gosvami’s work -- Prabhupada’s goal was to provide his disciples an essential understanding of the practices and ideals of Krsna consciousness, make it easy to read for a neophyte and give overall idea what Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is about.
Nandatanuja's comment here makes it clear that NOD needs to be followed up by a complete translation and commentary on Brs, which of course many would not read becasue "Prabhupada has already given NOD." Recently in Prabhapada Village I heard from Gauravani that Ekanatha's (my godbrother) wife complained about his attendence to my classes. Ekanatha repled by telling her "Ok, you can just read Prabhupada's books, but remember to turn of the television."
Swami - December 11, 2005 4:39 pm
a) to learn to direct our love to the center and origin of all love and that way learn to love and respect everything and everyone else. Srila Prabhupada writes, "The Nectar of Devotion teaches us the science of loving every one of the living entities perfectly by the easy method of loving Krsna."
This is very important: learning to love and respect everything and everyone else. Without this focus, one's practice becomes lopsided and the example one sets is hardly endearing. This topic came up during my recent visit to NC. It was quite interesting to see how differntly some devotees had been thinking in the name of Krsna consciusness: "I am a devotee and therefore my work is most important. If I cut someone off in traffic or keep their wallet after finding it on the floor, they will benefit becasue I am doing bhakti and they have unknowingly assited me in getting to my destination sooner and helped to fund Krsna's service." When I explained that devotion was voluntary and that we needed to universalize the Deity—seeing Krsna in everyone and everything— it became apparent that the mentality cited above was the antithesis of Krsna consciousness. Example speaks louder than precept.
I remember how one devotee once criticized the members of the Ram Krsna mission in India for their impersonal philosophy, but then explaind that nonetheless they were so humble and kind. I replied that both groups, ISKCON and the Rama Krsna Mission got half of it right. We need to get it all right.
Babhru Das - December 11, 2005 8:29 pm
Nandatanuja's comment here makes it clear that NOD needs to be followed up by a complete translation and commentary on Brs, which of course many would not read becasue "Prabhupada has already given NOD."
I think it's clear that this is a necesary project. And I don't doubt at all that many wouldn't read it, or that they'd at least be reluctant to accept it. Too bad.
I got a chuckle out of this, especially after hearing her express her "appreciation" for you in recordings of previous visits.
Gauravani Dasa - December 12, 2005 12:30 am
The person you heard on the recordings may have been Gopiswari, Ranjit's wife. Ekanatha's wife, Asta-sakhi hasn't hung around long enough during any of GM's talks to express appreciation.
Babhru Das - December 12, 2005 1:45 am
I think you're right. I remember now hearing her say she was married to Ranjit. Raspy voice, right?