Tattva-viveka

Partial and nonpartial (complete) incarnation

Igor - August 17, 2005 4:18 pm

In previous topic "Searching for Madhumangala" Swami wrote

"Narada Muni is a partial incarnation of Madhumangala, and he appeared as Srivasa Thakura in Gaura-lila."

What is difference between partial and nonpartial (complete) incarnation? How to understand that some devotee appeared partialy in lila?

Also it is said that sometimes devotees combines and appear in this world together. For example in Gaura-ganodesa dipika we can find :

"Rcika Muni's son Brahma Mahatapah, and Prahlada Maharaja combined to appear as Haridasa Thakur in Lord Caitanya's pastimes?"

How to understand that two individual devotees like Mahatapah and Prahlada combined to appear as Haridasa Thakur?

Vaisnava philosophy is supreme personalistic philosophy so idea about merging or combining two separate individuals in one is little bit puzzling! How to properly understand that?

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 17, 2005 7:03 pm

Activity of partial manifestation (amsavatara) is limited to a particular time, place or incident. It’s here to perform a particular task, which doesn’t require presence of full potency. The idea of merging or combining is bonafide as well -- there are a lot of syncretic Deities: Lord Dattatreya -- Brahma, Visnu and Siva are combined; Harihara -- Visnu and Siva, Ardhanarisvara -- Siva and Parvati, etc. I'm sure manifestations of devotees work pretty much same way.

You can check this chart for explanation about Lords' Avataras.

Syamasundara - August 17, 2005 9:40 pm

I read somewhere that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is both Radha and Govinda combined!

But that is God. The soul has nonetheless much more potential than we can possibly conceive of. This goes from some yogis who take birth again in crystals on the material level, all the way up to Vrndavana where everything is ruled by bhava.

Bhava means both nature and state of mind, feeling. In Vrndavana the nature of things is determined by feeling; everything revolves around Krsna's bhava and since everything is conscious and made of bhava there, when Krsna's bhava changes, everything else accommodates that and also changes in nature, or bhava, all orchestrated by the svarupa sakti. Distances are longer or shorter, so is time, the rivers stop and the earth melts.

Concepts like bhava or svarupa sakti have a certain "liquidity" to them that really escapes our linear, stunted minds, that's why chanting is so vital for our understanding Krsna: we must become Krsna-ized as much as possible.

So anyway, I think Gm made the point once that when we hear that so&so is the incarnation of this and the other combined it means that so&so is the incarnation of their bhavas, or the elements they have in common, and as we said, there is no difference between these great personalities (especially) and their bhavas.

There are so many more intricated instances. Nanda maharaja and Yasodarani are individuals, but also expansions of the svarupa sakti, just like most of the gopas and gopis and actually the whole of Vrndavana is. Some souls are said to emanate from Nanda, Yasoda, etc. if they share the same bhava. And besides those instances of two individuals in one body what about the fact that even those who had a "simple" correspondence or incarnation in Gaura lila, like Nanda/Jagannatha Misra, Rupa Manjari/Rupa Goswami kept being themselves in Krsna lila, or in other words one individual with two bodies simultaneously? Then again, they're not jiva sakti, and I am giving more questions than real answers.

Just wanted to give some food for thought, replete with stretching exercises.

Syama

Igor - August 18, 2005 3:47 pm

To Nanda -tanuja

>You can check this chart for explanation about Lords' Avataras.>

Chart is very useful. Good example of Lord Dattatreya and Harihara, they are combined as you described. Interesting. Thank you.

To Shyamasundara

>I read somewhere that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is both Radha and Govinda combined!>

In Sanga Nrsimhadeva and Caitanya lila Swami wrote

"In our Gaudiya Vaisnava lineage our deity is actually Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Because our deity is Caitanya Mahaprabhu our deity is Radha Krsna. 'Sri Krsna Caitanya, Radha Krsna nahe anya, rupanuga janera jivana'.

We are the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami and his followers and it is said, 'Rupanuga janera jivana'. The life and soul of the followers of Rupa Goswami is this one point. 'Sri Krsna Caitanya Radha Krsna nahe anya'. That Sri Krsna Caitanya is Radha and Krsna combined. So our deity is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and thereby Radha and Krsna."

You are right. And how much more potential have personal associates of Krsna, like Nanda Maharaja, Yasoda mayi, Sridhama and others!

< like Nanda/Jagannatha Misra, Rupa Manjari/Rupa Goswami kept being themselves in Krsna lila, or in other words one individual with two bodies simultaneously? Then again, they're not jiva sakti, and I am giving more questions than real answer>

Good question Shyama! Well, it seems that not only Supreme Lord Krsna is acintya, but also His devotees or associates are acintya. We can not understand that dimension of love with our limited minds. It?s real land of wonders. Some answers can be found only by devotion.

Bhakta Ivar - August 23, 2005 9:40 am

I would like to know in which scriptures there is mention of two Deities becoming one, or someone being/becoming a combined devotee. Can the scholars out there (in here) perhaps form a list?

How ancient is the idea? Are there instances in the Rig Veda, or certain Upanisads? Which Puranas give examples?

Ivar

Igor - August 24, 2005 6:47 pm

I would like to know in which scriptures there is mention of two Deities becoming one, or someone being/becoming a combined devotee.

Gaura-ganodesa-dipika, for example.

Verse 159

Hot-tempered Saibya-gopi who previously appeared in Vraja, appeared as Damodara Pandita during Lord Caitanya's pastimes. The goddess Sarasvati also entered the body of Damodara Pandita, who is thus the combined incarnation of them both.

Verse 176

The two gopis Vira-devi and Duti-devi, who acted as messengers arranging the gopis' meetings with Lord Krsna, combined to appear as my father (Sivananda Sena).

How ancient is the idea?

Well, Lords pastimes are infinite and eternal, so similar that combining is also eternal ( in terms of beginning and end ), part of eternal loving lila.

Are there instances in the Rig Veda, or certain Upanisads?

I am not familiar with Rig Veda or Upanisads, but we can clearly see from Kavi Karnapura's book that such example exists.

In Krsna Book Chapter 90 we can find

Although it may be said that yogis also can expand their bodies into many forms, the yogi's expansion and Lord Krsna's expansion are not one and the same. Krsna is therefore sometimes called Yogesvara, the master of all yogis. In the Vedic literature we find that the yogi Saubhari Muni expanded himself into eight.

And pure devotees have more mystical powers then yogis like Saubhari Muni. If such power - to expand self in eight forms - is present in yogis, we can only slightly imagine what powers are latent in pure devotees of Lord.

Bhakta Ivar - August 25, 2005 1:22 pm

Dear Igor,

There are many examples of the principle in devotional literature from the time of Mahaprabhu to the present. But I was specifically interested in examples from before that era. Sorry if this question sounds a bit academic. But I'm trying to understand the history of Vaisnava thought.

Ivar

Igor - August 25, 2005 3:08 pm

Dear Ivar, Your question was not at all academic, but dynamic!

You are right that there are examples of this principle in modern vaisnava literature. I did not find anything about such examples in Bhagavatam and I am not familiar with other Puranas.

- note about Lord Dattatreya, ( Nanda Tanuja mentioned that example from Bhagavatam ) it seem that Lord Dattatreya is incarnation of Vishnu, not combine incarnation. Atri devi had three sons and Brahma became Soma, Vishnu was born as Dattatreya and Shiva was born as Durvasa. Or maybe I am wrong?

For example in Bhag.9.15.17. it is said dattam narayanam amsam - Dattatreya is the plenary expansion of Narayana.

That is interesting.

Igor - August 25, 2005 4:58 pm

The idea of merging or combining is bonafide as well -- there are a lot of syncretic Deities: Lord Dattatreya -- Brahma, Visnu and Siva are combined; Harihara -- Visnu and Siva, Ardhanarisvara -- Siva and Parvati, etc.

Nandaji, could you,please suport this combining with some sastric verses. I was unable to find proper evidence.I just find quotations from Gaura-ganodesa-dipika, but that was not right answer to Ivars question.

Gaurapremanande Haribol!

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 25, 2005 5:23 pm

Atri devi had three sons and Brahma became Soma, Vishnu was born as Dattatreya and Shiva was born as Durvasa. Or maybe I am wrong?

You are correct. I'm not sure why Dattatreya represents three deities. I could find only one quote supporting this in Saandilya Upanishad: "He is Brahma. His Vishnu, He is Rudra. He is Indra and He is also all the gods of heaven and all other beings. He is East, He is West, He is North, He is South, He is below and He is above. He is everything. This is the glory of the form of Dattatreya." Some say that Sri Dattatreya's life can be divided into three parts just like the three deities He represents. His iconic form supports that as well. You can find more info here.

Igor - August 25, 2005 5:45 pm

Thank you for additional informations.

What about Harihara or Ardhanarisvara? Are there any sastric evidence? Do they exist eternaly or this combining is part of their pastimes in this world?

And here is one more example - Srilla Advaita Acarya. Advaita Acarya is a combined form of Mahavisnu and Sadasiva. We can learn that from Caitanya Caritamrta.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 25, 2005 6:45 pm

You have to consider that only a very small fragment of shastric evidence is available in English. And a very small portion of English translated texts are available for electronic searching (internet, Vedabase, etc.), so if you cannot find it, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It only means you cannot find it

Ardhanarisvara means "God who is half-woman", so in Manu Smriti (The Laws of Manu) 1.32 we find:

Dividing his own body, the Lord became half male and half female.

About Harihara (Sankaranarayana) I found only this shlokam, but not sure what is it's source:

The right part of the body, white in color, moon decorated crown, decorated by ash and rudrAksham, the left, black in color, with jeweled crown, shining in yellow clothes, the right hands are holding axe and protection posture, and the left, conch and mace, partially showing eye in the forehead, in the combined form of harihara, always (I) salute that shambhu.

Bhrigu - August 26, 2005 6:58 am

The idea of Ardhanarishvara is a Puranic one, described in several places in the Saiva Puranas. For example: "'You are the oblation and I am the fire; I am the sun and you are the moon. Therefore you should not cause a separation between us, as if we were distinct people.' And as he said this, Siva caused her to enter the side of his own body, as if she were hiding there in embarrassment, and their paired bodies became one, because of their love (Skanda Purana 1.3.2.18-21)". The idea of Harihara is also a Puranic concept, sometimes explained as intended to mitigate secterian rivalty. Can't find any quotations right now, but I'm sure about this.

Seeing Dattatreya as Brahma-Vishnu-Siva is a late (16th century) Maharastrian development. In the Bhagavatam (4th Canto), the story goes of course the other way. Atri Rsi performed terrible austerities in order to have the Supreme as his son, but got three sons, Brahma (Soma), Vishnu (Dattatreya) and Shiva (Durvasa). Like the story of Daksa's sacrifice, this of course is intended to show the non-difference between the three.

Gods "splitting up" to become many is a common theme in the Upanishads. To create, Prajapati becomes man and woman in Brihadaranyaka Up, etc. But not as avataras. That is a later concept, first found in the epics.

Bhakta Ivar - August 26, 2005 9:34 am

> "He is Brahma. His Vishnu, He is Rudra. He is Indra and He is also all the gods of heaven and all other beings.

It seems that all statements concerning the combination or the split-up or (re)incarnation of certain Deities, have a philosophical or theological meaning. It seems that in some cases the devotion of a certain person or character reminded the author of certain devotees of the past, and thus he described them as being the incarnation of a past devotee, or devotees.

Sometimes devotees become the incarnation of certain qualities. Guru Maharaja was described by Srila Prabhupada as the “incarnation of bookdistribution.”

The jiva is an eternal individual spark of consciousness that cannot merge with another. And devotees are said to have an eternal relationship with God in a certain unique rasa. Thus even though it’s described that two devotees merge to become one devotee in Caitanya-lila, technically that is not possible, but it does help the reader to quickly understand some of the qualities of the devotee in question. Still, if one is comfortable with it, one may take it all literally.

It is very important to understand that the gods and goddesses, as well as the demons and human beings described in ancient Vedic scriptures, all represented certain cosmological elements. When you read sapta-rishis, one should always keep in mind that this was how the priests described Ursa Major, the Big Bear. It’s the most important constellation for travelers, because it helps to locate the Pole Star (Dhruva-loka, that “fixed” and “unchanging” part of the sky around which all other stars revolve). Mahabharata, Rig Veda and the Puranas are all filled with astronomical phenomena, coded in puns and stories of gods and demons. For example, the story of tripurari refers to a certain planetary alignment of the past. Visnu (and Bhisma too) originally represented the Sun (sarva-gatah, vasudeva). Indra represented the giant Jyestha (a star much bigger than our Sun, which is called a dwarf, enter Vamanadeva, who sets three steps (tri-sandhyam). Rahu represented the North Node of the Moon, a mathematical point in the sky which predicts eclipses. Ananta-sesa, a coiled snake, represents the circular orbit of the planets, and the force of gravity which keeps them in their orbit. Mount Meru represents the Polar axis. The ancient Vedic civilization, in particular the priests and poets, were very much occupied with stars and planets (astronomy), indeed long before “Vedic” astrology was practiced the way we practice it today. And the natural elements like rain, sunshine etc. were also very important and appreciated. Isn’t it a coincidence that a land where drought or simply insufficient rains is a very realistic threat, describes the “most attractive God” as having the color of a fresh rain cloud? I live in the Netherlands, where there rain clouds are viewed with less appreciation.

Although the early texts were highly astronomical and ritualistic in nature, later texts were more concerned with issues like devotion. In these newer texts the characters continued to play a role, although often divorced from their astronomical or phenomenal qualities. They started to represent certain states of mind, psychological qualities or levels of devotion. And then they all incarnated as associates of Lord Caitanya. Some of them combined.

There are some passages in Caitanya-caritamrita and other recent scriptures where you have to appreciate the philosophical background of what is being said, and not create a new philosophy on the basis of what is said. I will never forget what a devotee once told me: “Krishnadasa Kaviraja wrote the book in a state of ecstasy.” You don’t have to take everything you read literally. It’s the spirit that matters. “Are there really Brahma’s with millions of heads? How are they constructed?” “That’s not important. The story is about humility, not about the anatomy of Brahma.”

Still, it’s a matter of sentiment. There is a tradition up to the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, who declared his father to be an incarnation of a certain character of rasa-lila. Srila Sridhara Maharaja has also described this in “Follow the Angels”. If one feels comfortable with a certain approach, it’s fine. But don’t get confused.

Ivar

Three useful books:

Sacred Universe of Sadaputa dasa.

The Celestial Key to the Vedas by B.G. Siddharth.

The Myths of Vamana and Narasimha