Tattva-viveka
subtle body
Kamalini-devi Dasi - August 28, 2005 9:08 pm
Is the subtle body consisting of the mind, intelligence and false ego gradually transformed to a spiritual mind, intelligence and real ego to accompany the soul to the spiritual realm, or is the subtle body gradually disolved? Does the spiritual body, which is dormant, consist of its own mind, intelligence and ego?
Syamasundara - August 29, 2005 8:03 am
Is the subtle body consisting of the mind, intelligence and false ego gradually transformed to a spiritual mind, intelligence and real ego to accompany the soul to the spiritual realm, or is the subtle body gradually disolved? Does the spiritual body, which is dormant, consist of its own mind, intelligence and ego?
According to how I've understood it, I imagine the soul in the material world like a drop of ice, frozen by the lack of love of the material world and compressed by the weight of ahamkara and the whole cascade of elements that develop around it (intelligence, mind, the senses, etc).
In the spiritual world the atomic soul evaporates into a little cloud of svarupa sakti, where all the elements that were already there (intelligence, mind, body) expand into a form or another (gopi, gopa, cow, tree).
Of course it's not so black and white, it's actually a long ongoing process, but my point is that in the liberated state soul, subtle and gross body are the same, and there is no need of the material subtle body, which anyway would still be too gross for the spiritual dimension.
Bhakta Ivar - August 31, 2005 12:23 pm
Ahankara means I-making, and it refers to the sense of I, me and mine. The name suggests that this term stems from the period of the Upanisads (many of which have a monistic flavor) in which the universal brahman was discussed extensively. If we take ahamkara as selfishness, then of course this disappears altogether. There is no ahamkara anymore, just the true eternal aham (I serving You), not “made” through misidentification with the physical body. EGO: Earth Guide Only
Then Buddhi. It seems this term was not viewed in a negative sense initially, because it means illumination. Taken to mean intelligence, it refers to the analytical faculties, the ability to discriminate. On lower levels it’s an essential survival mechanism, on higher levels it helps one find one’s way through the mixture of truth, untruth and half truth. In the eternal world, survival is irrelevant, and there is nothing but truth. So no need for such mechanisms.
And manas, the mind, the control centre of the senses and the seat of desire. Well, no physical senses and desire to enjoy them in the spiritual world, so no need for a mind.
Now the question is whether they are gradually transformed. Certainly during life on Earth they are transformed from very gross mechanisms to more subtle forms, as mentioned above. Human beings have very subtle and advanced levels of discrimination, but monkeys and ants have to discriminate too. So from animal life to the human form of life, and then from lower human levels to the level of educated and spiritually minded human beings.
The “dormant” spiritual body, is not a body as we know it, but a whole unit, not consisting of separate systems. That unit is complete and suitable for that environment. But we cannot comprehend what that really means. We do not live in that environment, have not seen it, nor will we see it until we are there. Patience is fitting.
Ivar
Syamasundara - August 31, 2005 2:21 pm
, complete self-forgetfulness.Bhakta Ivar - September 1, 2005 8:25 am
Swami - September 1, 2005 9:20 pm
Srila Rupa Goswami explains that one's material mind becomes spiritualized in bhava-bhakti. Just as an iron rod placed in fire becomes like fire. When one's heart is softend by the ingress of suddha sattva consisting of samvit and hladhini sakti, one's mind and intelligence function spiritually, and at this stage they no longer get in the way of the soul's communion with Krsna. A spiritualized body, mind, and intelligence are realized as the mature stage of asakti turns into bhava. Such a mind and intelligence are eternal in thier own way, as spiritualized minds and intelligence. Therefore we place the bodies of great souls in samadhi and worship their forms, their thoughts, and their insights.
At the same time, one's nitya svarupa in Krsna lila is wholly spiritual in form thought and intelligence, as opposed to being spiritualized. While we may make such distinctions, the practical reality is that a spiritually functioning mind and a spiritual mind are both spiritual. Indeed, Dhruva Maharaja went to Vaikuntha in his spiritualized sadhaka-deha. Similary, one may appear in Gaura-lila in a fully spiritualized eternaly youthful sadhaka-deha. There we find the Six Goswamis in their sadhaka-dehas, although youthful ones. This is a great mystery.
The nature of the mind is such that it is very unconducive to spiritual culture when not harnessed by bhakti, (bhava-bhakti) yet very conducive to spiritual culture when harnessed by bhakti. In discussing dhyana, Bhagavad-gita 6.5 says as much, ätmaiva hy ätmano bandhur ätmaiva ripur ätmanah.
Before the mind is harnessed by bhakti, one's ability to meditate on Sri Krsna's form, qualities, and lilas is limited. Real meditation begins at the stage of asakti. It is one thing to think of Krsna with the mind and another to meditate on him. Actual meditation brings the soul in direct contact with Krsna, whereas merely thinking of Krsna with ones’ mind does not cause his form, qualities, and lilas to appear in one’s heart.
Thus the glory of nama sankirtana, the mercy of Harinama! For simply by chanting Krsna nama with the tip on one’s tongue brings about actual meditation. It cleanses the mind in a way that simply thinking of Krsna cannot. Thus meditation begins with chanting—nama samaranm. This in turn is followed by rupa smaranam, guna smaranam, and ultimately lila smaranam. Kirtana begets meditation. Meditation is the fruit of kirtana in Kali-yuga and thus represents an advanced stage of bhakti. This is also a great mystery.