Tattva-viveka
Guru Maharaja Retiring?
Swami - September 17, 2005 1:55 am
Syamasundara - September 17, 2005 8:14 am
What, there is no more need of rice in the market?
I think it's a most genial idea, retiring before actually "passing away" and see how we carry on "without" you.
Swami - September 17, 2005 12:45 pm
Bhrigu - September 17, 2005 5:01 pm
you have understood my plan.
I don't understand, and I'm a bit worried also. What would your retirement mean, Guru Maharaja? No more travelling? Over here at least we are not at all ready to carry on without you.
Swami - September 17, 2005 6:17 pm
Retierment plans need to be made in advance. Even then, man proposes and God . . .
I am not ready to carry on without you either.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 17, 2005 7:37 pm
“A bit worried?” How about having full blown panic attack?! I think you have to elaborate a little more on that retirement idea. Do you feel ill? Do you need any help? What is this talk about retirement? What are your plans exactly? There is no retirement for you unless your obligations are fulfilled -- I’m here, so are my godsiblings and we are not quite enlightened yet, so please stop all that nonsense and step to the podium.
Syamasundara - September 17, 2005 9:13 pm
“A bit worried?” How about having full blown panic attack?! I think you have to elaborate a little more on that retirement idea. Do you feel ill? Do you need any help? What is this talk about retirement? What are your plans exactly? There is no retirement for you unless your obligations are fulfilled -- I’m here, so are my godsiblings and we are not quite enlightened yet, so please stop all that nonsense and step to the podium.
Love cannot be taught, it blooms in your heart. Sri Guru is a mentor, someone who tells us what we need to do and how in order to attain enlightenment (and hopefully divine love), not someone who "enlightens us," so I think the message behind the retirement is "get busy." If he left us right now everything could be lost. After seeing what happened with Iskcon, the last thing GM wants is history to repeat itself. We don't even have a Sridhara Maharaja to resort to, and then again we do thanks to Guru Maharaja, and we have Srila Prabhupada and GM's own teachings and presentation. So it's time to give up the pacifier. Myself I started to think: "Have I read all the Sangas? Could I draw from them to preach to my mind or others? Have I read all the verses and books quoted in the Sangas? What's the status of my sadhana?"
If and when Gm leaves us, all we have is each other and his print in us. He is an acarya to the world, but a sadhaka to himself. The beauty is that even while apparently selfishly focussing on his sadhana he never stops being an acarya, giving us probably the best and more important example and instruction. We are each on their own raft and we shouldn't count on the descent of mercy, even if ultimately that's our only hope.
My mother taught me how to swim by holding my hands while I'd be pedalling away, gradually she would let go of my hands but still stretch her arms toward me while stepping back. This retirement idea seems to be something similar.
No need for panic attacks, although I am a little unsettled myself.
Other than that, we should think of our own obligations to Sri Guru, not the other way around, which is not our business. It's probably a good moment to meditate on the last period of Mahaprabu's life on earth and of Prabhupada's life.
When the commentary to the Siksastakam comes out it wil probably easier to understand GM's heart at present.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 17, 2005 9:24 pm
Dear Syamasundara, thank you very much for your reply, I don’t want so sound ungrateful or even rude, but my question was addressed to Guru Maharaja. Your message sounds similar to “Everything in Prabhupada’s books.” Probably, but while my Guru is present I want his company and association – face to face. I want to see his smile and listen to his voice. It’s not a pacifier – it’s food of life.
Syamasundara - September 17, 2005 9:48 pm
Sorry for the intrusion.
Swami - September 18, 2005 2:42 am
It is good to heave some feeling for Guru and Gauranga.
Rama-priya - September 19, 2005 7:34 am
Actually I want to retire, learn more Bengali, and compose and sing songs in praise of Gaura Krsna all day. So perhaps one day we can make a song book and include this one.
Dear Guru Maharaja,
How we can stay alive after hearing this, without possibility to hear any word from you? Without possibility to associate personally or at least through sanga?
I understand that doing this you’re trying to teach us that in our life we should totally absorb ourselves in remembering Krsna and his associates, in consciousness of Krsna, but how we can do it without possibility to observe your actions, following your example and then after probably very long time will be possible to understand your heart, plans. Now for me it is impossible. I know that we can associate with you through your books, but it's not the same when is possibility personally observe and learn from You
Igor - September 19, 2005 9:14 am
Dear Gurudeva,
Without your personal guidance there is no way for person like me to make any advance. Infant like me can not make step forward and run. Your love is essence of our spiritual endeavors; your words and example is core of our little devotional efforts. Separation from you, your words and instructions will be worse then death. Please, do not retire yet.
Igor - September 19, 2005 9:46 am
From my wife Marija
Dear Swami,
My husband told me yesterday about your retiring plans. That disturbed me so much that I could not sleep all night. I don’t have firm faith in Krsna, but I have faith that by being in contact with you, someday my attraction toward Krsna will appear. Contact with you is my only hope.
I am hoping that your health is good,
With love, Marija
Swami - September 19, 2005 12:45 pm
Hmmm. I meant to say that I have such an ambition, but it is clear that I have much to do in the meantime. I appreciate all of your sentiments. I have no plans to retire any time soon. But it will be good the more all of you can take responsibility to make our sanga strong by being good examples.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 19, 2005 5:26 pm
The only thing I’m surprised of is the lack of more comments from our community regarding this, which might mean one of the following things:
1. Nobody visits “Tattva-viveka” and reads it regularly, so everybody just missed all this “retirement” business.
2. People who visit “Tattva-viveka” are much surrendered -- “OK, so He is Guru, whatever He is doing is right, I just accept it.”
I personally quite relived by Guru Maharaja delaying his retirement.
Babhru Das - September 19, 2005 5:59 pm
There are a couple of reasons I didn't comment. One is that I saw nothing in Maharaja's comment that indicated his intention to retire immediately. In response to Audarya-lila's inquiry about some commentary on a particular song, he replied, "Actually I want to retire, learn more Bengali, and compose and sing songs in praise of Gaura Krsna all day. So perhaps one day we can make a song book and include this one." So what he was really saying was something like, "Yes, I'd like to do that some day." When we started panicking, he wrote, "Retierment plans need to be made in advance. Even then, man proposes and God. . . . " This indicated to me that this "retirement," whatever its form, is not something imminent. In the meantime, Nanda-tanuja will have plenty of time to take enough association and offer enough service to make the rest of us swim in envy, and the rest of also have time to organize our lives so we can have more association and service. And this is not a problem only for his recently initiated disciples; some of us older folks, even his godbrothers and -sisters, see how much he has go give, and we need to arrange things so we can take advantage of that so we may realize, in our service and our spiritual lives, the success Srila Prabhupada intends for us. I know that I felt some added urgency over the weekend to get my pathetic act more together.
Another reason is that I wanted to leave room for Swami to respond to the devotees' pleas. I was charmed by the intensity of the devotees' feelings. At the same time, I was hoping that someone would point out that the real association is indeed in service. There has been a little disturbance among some of those participating in our Nectar of Devotion meetings here on the Big Island due to differnt understandings/sentiments about our relationships with Srila Prabhupada and other vaishnava preachers. Someone said something the other day about her understanding that if we simply kept chanting as we had promised, following the principles, etc., that Srila Prabhupada would see that we "go back to Godhead." She gets confused by so much talk of technical things and many lifetimes to go, etc. I'm working on putting together a short essay pointing out that the kind of chanting and following Srila Prabhupada asks for has implications--specifically that our consciouness be refined, that our standards naturally increase as we make progress. And that's the core: spiritual life is dynamic and progressive, not static. Our lives and aspriations should change as we progress, and we should be introspective enough to regularly check to ensure that we are making progress. And the essence of that dynamic, progressive spritual life is a matrix of submission, inquiry, and service. Chanakya pandit says that, just as we get water from a well by digging, we get knowledge from the guru by service.
In the meantime, I'm editing relevant portions of the other thread so I can deepen my understanding of Maharaja's mood in the hope that my own will follow. Although he has kindly given me a glimpse here and there, I seem inclined to wait on further inquiry until my own service increases.
SashidharaDasa - September 19, 2005 7:21 pm
I saw all the posts about retirement only today. Initially I was shocked and now relieved once I completed reading all the posts.
It would be very hard for me on any given day to think of Maharaja's retirement. But its also a kind of eye-opener for me to think of doing something more which would please Maharaja.
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga
Audarya-lila Dasa - September 19, 2005 8:39 pm
I have to say that I took Guru Maharaja's answer to my query in a similar fashion that Babhru did. Afterall, what does retirement for a gaudiya vaishnava mean anyway? What I felt was that Guru Maharja was expressing his heart to be engaged in chanting about, meditating on and glorifiying the pastimes of Nimai pandit 24/7. From what I have seen of retirement in a general sense, it usually affords one the time to do that which one would like to do more often. Most retirees travel more, not less.
Although it is wonderful to see the construction and all the work going on at Audarya, that type of 'work' - putting the physical structure in place and managing the ashrama funds etc. is probably more of the type of function that Guru Maharaja would like to extricate himself from over time.
When I visit Audarya and I get the opportunity to hear Guru Maharaja I can feel just how much our need to drawing out so many wonderful insights. Guru Maharaja is always talking about life being about giving - did anyone really think his retirement would mean a cessation of the flow of nectar?
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 19, 2005 9:32 pm
There is a need of rice in the market and I want to have a full plate of it every day 
Babhru Das - September 19, 2005 10:36 pm
And you can't make sweet rice without it!
Now it's our business to develop the market and the distribution mechanism.
Syamasundara - September 19, 2005 11:45 pm
Thank you Babhru and Audarya lila for the wave of sensibility. I was beginning to worry...
Babhru Das - September 20, 2005 2:50 am
Well, I wasn't worried. As I said, I rather liked the intensity and sweetness of the devotees' expression of their dependence on their guru maharaja. There was a sense of urgency that infected even me. We should take nothing for granted. All the same, I wanted to point out the other side, too.
Igor - September 20, 2005 7:29 am
Babhru wrote
Now it's our business to develop the market and the distribution mechanism.
Yes, that is our goal – to distribute rice to everyone! But most of us are inexperienced apprentice traders and we need to be well trained by expert salesman!
Rice, sweet rice to everyone!
Gaurapremanande Haribol!
Karnamrita Das - September 21, 2005 12:58 pm
Wow, what a great read this is. Hearing the different reactions to Swami's "retiring" was very heart warming and thought provoking. Whatever helps us appreciate our relationship to our Guru Maharaja is welcome. Prabhupada often spoke of "retiring" and just sitting down to write but he was never able to do it. There were just too many pressing needs, and we couldn't work well without his ultimate authority.
On the one side we should appreciate association with GM (and his siksa), think about it and express it----always guarding against complacency and familiarity, and be able to properly take advantage of it. Most of us weren't really able to take advantage of Prabhupada's association or offer him much help or advice. On the other side I was thinking that we want to become so absorbed in GM's mood and mission that he could "retire" in confidence if he wanted to. The first class disciple knows the guru so well that he takes initiative to serve him without having to be asked. So an advanced disciple, if he or she understood the desire and mood of his guru was to retire, would be thinking how to could relieve the burdens and responsibilities of his guru so he could do it.
In my relationship to Swami I often think how selfish I am with so many things I want from him---his presence here in NC, sitting constantly to hear from him, teach me what I need to know, where the verses and stories he quotes are etc. I want what he has. These are not "bad" desires of course, but it not exactly, "How can I serve you?" "What would please you?” It would be an interesting discussion to talk about different levels of service, from motivated to pure and without conditions. The need to be appreciated and acknowledged is there in me as well.
I have a lot of affection for our Swami, love even if I dare say, but it is obvious to me that it is conditional, and I need to give up those conditions as I can. I love you, but could you help me and support me in this way. I love you, but please don't do this now, or please do this more often. I love you, but could you not say such and such, or could you say this more.
Now, as far as I understand, we should give our Guru feedback, "humble advise" even, if it seems appropriate or we have some expertise or experience, yet in the mood of surrender, and service to him and Sri Gauranga. We should feel a fool before the guru, but not be a fool in practice. Affectionate reverence. Love in service. Taking intiative in knowledge.
Any thoughts?
Syamasundara - September 21, 2005 3:29 pm
One thought of mine is to continue on a different thread, so it will be easier to search in the future for reference, as I think these are important topics.
Otherwise I am with Karnamrta 100%.
Babhru Das - September 21, 2005 6:12 pm
I like Syamasundar's idea for breaking this off into a new thread, perhaps back to where Swami made the comment that created this turn in the conversation. I agree with Karnamrita that discussing guru tattva from this perspective could be very healthy. Just what are my responsibilities as a disciple? What sort of service should I aspire to offer? I feel a little reluctant to say much more than I have because of my own reluctance to surrender. Just the same, it's important for us to help each other work these things out.
Mathura-natha Das - September 22, 2005 6:19 am
My first reaction to the "retirement" plans was that, "Well, now I just HAVE to go to Audarya if I want to see Swami at all!". But it seems that Finland is still on the list to do.
Bijaya Kumara Das - September 22, 2005 7:06 am
Dearest Guru Maharaja:
When I read your statement I was over joyed. I think a lot of the responses miss the boat.
Your writing songs about Guaranga have over joyed my heart espesically the morning artik song we sing at Audarya every morning which I have yet to fully bring to heart not singing it everyday, as I should, and please forgive me for needing Your lyrics board to read while sing or at least a song book in hand.
Retirement to me is doing what You want when You want to. To me You are retired and bringing forth as never seen before, as Your song to Guaranga states, the lila of the Golden One.
Please do more of this song writing so we may see Your lila unfold and I do most certainly wish to be a part of Your continuiously unfolding and ever expanding lila to Guaranga, Your Guru Maharaja and Shastra.
Jason - September 23, 2005 1:25 am
Honestly, I guess my reaction to seeing this thread today was different. I've been so caught up in my day to day affairs that I haven't been taking advantage of what Maharaja is freely giving.
I feel somewhat ashamed to say that the first things I thought about were how "I" might be affected if Swami were to retire; what I stood to lose. I realized that spiritual "greed" is one thing, but he has given far more to me than I have to him and if he were to not be in the picture (physically speaking), I would have been far more devastated about what I could have done to help him out; to help his community of devotees and preaching efforts.....
I guess my initial feelings were rather selfish and I realized that I should make more of an effort. Devotional service shouldn't just be something peripheral. I realize that it's definately an interactive thing.....a two way street.
sorry
Jason