Tattva-viveka
Internal connection with our Guru
Karnamrita Das - January 11, 2006 12:33 pm
Respectful Pranams to all!! Jai Sri Guru and Gauranga!
I came across the following on Bhakti Tirtha Swami's disiciples discussion group and I thought it an important topic for our tattva-vivekis. (the author, Mother Indrani is also a appreciator of Swami and is on the Thursday call sometimes.) I hope we can discuss this topic. Perhaps Swami could comment on it as well, since he may have another perspective or instruction regarding this. I seem to remember hearing or reading from Swami that he was concerned that his disciples be prepared for this eventually of his physical departure. Before Prabhupadas' departure there was no--or very little-- discussion of this topic, with disastrous results
Personally, I think there should also be a stress in how to recognize the appearance of Sri Guru in a siksa guru who may be personally present after ones' Guru is no longer in physical form.....both the internal connection with one's guru and the external appearance of relevant guidance through another agent of Divinity are essential.
dasanudas Karnamrta
Hare Krsna devotees
Please accept my humble obeiances. All glories to
Srila Prabhupada. All glories to our beloved Gurudeva.
After reading this message I went back to List message #1524-"Internal connection with Guru"posted by Lila Katha. I strongly feel that if we follow these three important instructions of our Gurudeva we won't need to open another e- group out there-- but will have a profound "heart mail" connection inside.
Happy New Year to all. thank you for your association on this BTSwamiList. may we continue chanting attentively,and praying deeply to be better servants for
Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada Yours in service to Guru and Krsna
Love
Mother Indrani
Excerpt from “Stop the Violence” on 1/31/98
Question:
When you used to go away, you used to tell us that you
might not come back. And this was at the time you were
going into heavy warfare environments or you were
going into environments where there were heavy curses
on you and even attempts on your life. So, in this
late hour, we understand that you might be on another
side of the planet when changes take place or we never
know when Krishna is going to pull you back home. So,
we need to concentrate on developing an internal
relationship with you and serving your instructions
and your mood rather than your form. And then, if we
can do that, when we do see you, we will have that
much more and will appreciate everything that you have
given us that much more. So, the question is actually
two-fold. If you can speak on the development of our
internal relationship and also based on some of your
experiences and also Srila Prabhupada’s, if we didn’t
have your association, how we can best work together
and avoid some of the pitfalls when guru is not there
physically?
His Holiness Bhakti Tirtha Swami:
These are very significant points. So, he is saying
that in the past we have mentioned sometimes we may
leave and not come back in war zones. We see what
happened recently when we sent devotees to West
Africa. Kavicandra Swami became deathly ill with
malaria. In fact, we were praying for him all over the
world because he went into coma for three days with
such bad malaria. A month before him, Gunagrahi Swami
also deathly ill with malaria. And of course we were
discussing many years ago how when we go into these
environments, there are curses and a lot of
complexities. And so it is not always that guru is
going to come back physically--he may not. And the way
things are happening now, you don’t know where the
spiritual master may be when you have to be confronted
with some serious crisis. It is not that as we are
preparing you for changes or falling of civilization
that the guru is necessarily going to physically be
there. He may not. He may be in another part of the
world and may not even be on the planet. So his point
is, how do we go beyond just relating to the spiritual
master’s physical presence?
Some of you come when I am physically here and when I
am not here, you don’t come. Or you don’t check in
with each other if I am not here. How to get away from
that kind of thing. For years, I was trying to help my
devotees in West Africa to understand that also but
most didn’t so most have trouble now. So you have to
realize that it is not going to be that guru is always
going to be around. There will be times when he is
less and less available. We saw that with Srila
Prabhupada. We thought that he was always going to be
around. So first we were with him, devotees were with
him on a monthly basis, on a weekly basis and then,
after awhile, saw him once a year. After awhile, it
was less and less. And then at some point, we didn’t
see him physically at all. And so most devotees had so
much trouble. It is why our movement has some
weaknesses now because some people did not develop
that internal connection. They did not develop it
strong enough so therefore, they have to speculate and
do things based on their own intelligence or based on
the moment and it is not given the proper guidance and
potency.
So, there are three things you can also do:
1. Get in the habit of writing a letter, keep a diary,
and write a letter to guru on a regular basis
according to what things you feel comfortable with.
And this way you are writing, remembering, and
thinking about guru everyday and being accountable to
the spiritual master about what is happening in your
life.
2. Get more in the habit of when you wake up in the
morning or when you come back in the evening or during
the day, that sometimes you go before the photograph
of the spiritual master and you talk to the spiritual
master. You let him know what is happening in your
life. What you are doing, what you are not doing, what
is going on. Where the weaknesses are and in what
areas you need help. You thank him for giving you some
insight. Get in the habit of doing like that.
3. The things you do, constantly think that guru is
physically here or guru is watching or guru is being
aware of this. Krishna is telling guru this. How would
the spiritual master be pleased about what I am
saying, doing, and thinking.
So, take these things to help you develop more of the
internal connection with the spiritual master. I
wasn’t bewildered when Prabhupada left the planet
because I had already developed…my relationship was
more of an internal than an external. Although I was
with Prabhupada about 30 times, that wasn’t much. Ten
major times but I was writing a diary on a regular
basis. I got books and books of what I have written, a
diary, what I am thinking of the guru and making
myself accountable. And then thinking what would
Prabhupada want me to do in this situation or that
situation. But in so many cases where that wasn’t
there, one begins to deviate and become confused. Each
year my relationship with Prabhupada gets stronger
even though I am not physically with him. Every year
it gets a little stronger because of the internal
connection. So, if you don’t learn how to make the
internal connection, you are going to fall on your
face even more than you are already doing. Already too
many times you get bewildered about this and that. You
don’t relate to each other properly, you don’t carry
out your duties or do them whimsically. You do things
and guru has to chastise you about it. It means that
you are not thinking, “What would the guru want me to
do?”
There is no promise that anyone is going to stay in
their physical body forever. Everyone has to got to
leave the physical body. But even if not, if it
doesn’t happen soon or in the near future, we should
realize that we are being given the instruction about
how to develop the spiritual consciousness and mental
reflection. In one sense, you are at a loss or a
downside to have to be around the spiritual master’s
body so much because then you begin to feel a big
emptiness when it is not there. Like my devotees in
Ghana have less trouble with my physical absence than
devotees in Nigeria because in Nigeria I was more
physically there. So, now that I am not there as much,
they have more trouble trying to cooperate and trying
to focus and deal because I was usually more there
than I was in Ghana. But they have less trouble in
balancing the fact that I am not there. So, you have
to appreciate when I am here and take advantage
because it is a special type of rasa. But when I am
not, it should be a more intensified situation of
trying to think what did guru say, what did he want,
what did he ask for.
Bhakta Ivar - January 11, 2006 2:32 pm
> how to recognize the appearance of Sri Guru in a siksa guru who may be personally present after ones' Guru is no longer in physical form.....
There's nothing new about that, we all know what to do: we should seek the shelter of another siksa guru that seems to speak and act according to the directions of the previous Acaryas and our present Guru. We do not have to entertain fantasies that the deceased Guru has somehow entered the body/mind of the new siksa-guru.
Although I do not wish to hurt anyone's feelings, I must state my point of view that Bhakti Tirtha Swami's words are for his disciples and not necessarily for members of Tattva-viveka. BTS was clearly an eccentric person with eccentric views and a lot of interest in occult matters. I, and many Vaisnavas, believe such occult ideas are foreign to traditional Vaisnava tattva. The only interaction you can have with a guru is with a living guru. There is no way we can be certain that the deceased guru is aware of us, or we are aware of the guru. When the guru dies, you glorify him through the established methods of worship (with a picture or a murti) and you read his books or whatever he has left behind. No need to recognize your guru in another devotee, or to channel him or whatever. Keep it simple.
Ivar
Babhru Das - January 11, 2006 5:54 pm
I seem to remember hearing or reading from Swami that he was concerned that his disciples be prepared for this eventually of his physical departure. Before Prabhupadas' departure there was no--or very little-- discussion of this topic, with disastrous results
Personally, I think there should also be a stress in how to recognize the appearance of Sri Guru in a siksa guru who may be personally present after ones' Guru is no longer in physical form.....both the internal connection with one's guru and the external appearance of relevant guidance through another agent of Divinity are essential.
I think this is an important thing for devotees to discuss, and it may have some connection with the chapter of Nectar of Devotion up for discussion now, which begins with angas of bhakti in connection with the spiritual master. I'm a little pressed for time right now, but I do intend to come back and help explore this issue. Thanks for bringing it up, Karnamrita prabhu.
Syamasundara - January 12, 2006 12:24 am
That is definitely the best and safest one, I don't know about the only.
>There is no way we can be certain that the deceased guru is aware of us, or we are aware of the guru.
Sri Guru is a tattva, and a complex one. Sri Guru can no doubt talk to us from within our hearts, in a dream, maybe with the semblance of our deceased gurudeva in order to relate to us and touch our hearts, but Sri Guru is one and eternal, because ultimately it's Krsna.
And since all of you are expecting it, here goes: acaryam mam vijaniyat.
The eleventh canto tells us of so many gurus that one can have for a reason or another, but they're all manifestations of the one Sri Guru.
Call it suggestion, but if it wasn't for Pabhupada's dreams of his Guru, we wouldn't be here discussing now.
I'm blessed to think of my Guru Maharaja at least once daily, which, considered my lifestyle, is a real sweet daily miracle.
There are times when I think of him more intensely and frequently and keep dreaming of him until I wake up determined to write him to touch bases, and sure enough, I find an email from him. And it's not like we have an assiduous correspondence.
The only time that this failed to happen since I left the ashram was two weeks ago, but he was in Finland and quite busy. By the way Guru Maharaja, I'm writing you soon and this time you won't beat me on it 
Sending you a little gift, too.
Igor - January 12, 2006 7:13 am
It is right time to read Sri Guru and His Grace once again...
<The only interaction you can have with a guru is with a living guru
I do not agree with this. Syama said it well - it is complex tattva. And we can see it in our lineage - there are physical gaps in lineage, but not in spiritual sense. If it is true that you can have only interaction with living guru then our Gaudiya vaisnava lineage would not be valid. Brahma ...Madhva...and so on. Bhakti is always moving, changing, dancing in order to give more pleasure to the Lord. It is complex. There is also caitya-guru - guru within hearth.
Bhakta Ivar - January 12, 2006 10:01 am
> And we can see it in our lineage - there are physical gaps in lineage, but not in spiritual sense.
Now you're talking about Vaisnavas who were on a high level of development and/or living in a community of realised Vaisnavas. When explaining the necessity of a guru, we sometimes give the example of the necessity of a teacher when learning a musical instrument. In that sense the guru must be a living one. I personally believe that is the most important function of the guru.
> If it is true that you can have only interaction with living guru then our Gaudiya vaisnava lineage would not be valid. Brahma ...Madhva...and so on.
Madhva had a living guru, although not a Vaisnava. But in any case, I do not believe everyone needs a guru. However, in the context of Vaisnavism, one should be careful with introducing esoteric concepts about contact with the guru after he has departed, or telepathy while he's living for that matter. That it has happened to certain saints in the past doesn't make it part of the siddhanta.
Igor - January 12, 2006 7:18 pm
<When explaining the necessity of a guru, we sometimes give the example of the necessity of a teacher when learning a musical instrument. In that sense the guru must be a living one.>
I agree 100%!!!! Therefore Prabhupada directed his disciples to Sridhara Maharaja.
We must learn from someone - by example.
Arcanasiddhi Devi Dasi - January 12, 2006 9:22 pm
Sorry, I am on Arcana-siddhis computer. This is Karnamrta
>Although I do not wish to hurt anyone's feelings, I must state my point of view that Bhakti Tirtha Swami's words are for his disciples and not necessarily for members of Tattva-viveka. BTS was clearly an eccentric person with eccentric views and a lot of interest in occult matters. I, and many Vaisnavas, believe such occult ideas are foreign to traditional Vaisnava tattva. The only interaction you can have with a guru is with a living guru.
Ivar
I of course have a different take on BTS from my practical experience, but that is besides the point here. I am merely bringing up a topic I feel is useful to discuss. I know is important, and not as you say such an easy thing to deal with. Perhaps in theory, but in practice it is different. I and many of us experienced the departure of Prabhupada, and it was nothing sort of an upheaval. Many were lost. Of course now there is more knowledge, yet it is still a big test of what we have learned. As far as the necessity of accepting a guru, I think this is very clear as to the necessity, as is Swami's position on this.
The three points BTS brings up are very practical and not "occult". He is sharing his process of keeping connected with his guru, which he did when Prabhupad was physically present, and after his departure.
dasanudas Karnam
Bhakta Ivar - January 13, 2006 12:43 pm
> As far as the necessity of accepting a guru, I think this is very clear as to the necessity, as is Swami's position on this.
I was referring to the fact that not everyone needs a specific guru/teacher, as examplified by Madhva and Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Yes, I know about the connections they made to Vyasa and Jagannatha das Babaji respectively, but in both cases it wasn't what you would call a daily interaction. And there are other examples both within and outside of our tradition.
> The three points BTS brings up are very practical and not "occult".
I'm not saying they are, but let's go over them.
1. Get in the habit of writing a letter, keep a diary,and write a letter to guru on a regular basis
according to what things you feel comfortable with.
If the guru has passed away, why not write letters to your present mentor/guru?
> And this way you are writing, remembering, andthinking about guru everyday and being accountable to
the spiritual master about what is happening in your
life.
I guess I have to accept that in modern Gaudiya Vaisnavism remembering the guru has become more important than remembering Radha-Krishna. As far as accountability is concerned, we need to become accountable to ourselves first and foremost.
2. Get more in the habit of when you wake up in themorning or when you come back in the evening or during
the day, that sometimes you go before the photograph
of the spiritual master and you talk to the spiritual
master.
There are Deities of God, and wonderful pictures of God, and yet everyone is staring at pictures of the guru. Prayer used to be directed to God, now to another human being who has assumed the role of guru. Yes, the idea is to approach God through the spiritual master, but if that would be an absolute principle, we shouldn't have Deities and direct prayers to them at all!
3. The things you do, constantly think that guru isphysically here or guru is watching or guru is being
aware of this.
Yes, develop the Big Brother Is Watching You consciousness. Don't act right because you want to, but because you are afraid of what guru (or Krishna) will think of your acts and how they might punish you. In fact the only eyes that are observing us are our own, and thus we must develop an internal conscience, a sense of accountability to ourselves.
Krishna is telling guru this.
This is just not true. Yet it's a scary principle. But fear and guilt will never be the drive behind genuine spiritual progress. And as far as occult concepts is concerned, this is one of them.
How wouldthe spiritual master be pleased about what I am
saying, doing, and thinking.
Rather than: is this the right thing for me to say, do and think?
Overdependence on guru is what destroyed the Gaudiya Matha, ISKCON, and will destroy cults like those centering around Narayana Maharaja. Christianity dwindled philosophically after Christ died, and muslims have forgotten the true idea behind Islam. Guru is supposed to make the disciple independent, an "independently thoughtful person" as Prabhupada suggested.
Ivar
Bhakta Ivar - January 13, 2006 1:06 pm
Actually, what am I trying to do? Here's a person (me) who has not been initiated, and who doesn't seem to be interested in getting initiated. So what is he doing on this forum? Disturbing the minds of faithful followers, indirectly discrediting Swami. It's time I leave this place. So I invite the person in charge of membership to deactivate my account, otherwise every now and then when I'm bored I start replying to certain statements again.
There are some of you who have appreciated my contributions in the past, and there have certainly been contributions by some of you that I have appreciated. This is after all probably the most intelligent and broadminded group of Vaisnavas I have encountered so far. But honestly, I cannot consider myself a Gaudiya Vaisnava anymore. This will come as no surprise to some of you, and I'm certain Swami is not surprised, given the discussions we had 5 years ago.
But don't worry about me. I'm actively continuing my search for truth. Yes, perhaps I have become ensnared by the allurements of jnana. And although not interested in siddhis, the path I'm on could be described as mysticism. And mystics will generally not commit themselves to religious views and regulations.
So thank you all, dear tattva-vivekites, for what you have given me so far.
Ivar Verploegh
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - January 13, 2006 2:55 pm
It's time I leave this place.
Please reconsider. Often I've made fun of your "conspiracy theories", but I enjoyed them nevertheless. Sometimes it very healthy to see a different perspective -- it starts interesting conversation. Besides, Once a Vaisnava Always a Vaisnava, Mr. Purvapaksin.
Igor - January 13, 2006 3:13 pm
< Disturbing the minds of faithful followers, indirectly discrediting Swami.
No, I don’t think you do so. Open discussion is what is need in Gaudiya Vainavism. We are all different and may have different opinions.
< It's time I leave this place.
I see no reason for you to do it. I am also not initiated, and I realized that I will maybe never be initiated in this life. Acctually I am not thinking about that anymore. I am too individualistic person, stubborn and maybe kalpas will past when I will be ready to appreciate association of devotees but I am still here and find inspiration here
< I cannot consider myself a Gaudiya Vaisnava anymore
That is not reason to go. . I do not consider myself devotee, and I have many separate selfish interests. But that is not reason why not to participate on TV.
< is after all probably the most intelligent and broadminded group of Vaisnavas
Yes that is true. So there should be harmony in variety. We may have totally opposite arguments about something, and there is nothing wrong about that.
Nandaji said it well different perspective is what is need. We are here because we was opened enough to hear and think from different perspective. Therefore we should be ready to appreciate differences.
Please reconsider.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - January 13, 2006 5:22 pm
It is why our movement has some weaknesses now because some people did not develop that internal connection (to Guru). They did not develop it strong enough so therefore, they have to speculate and do things based on their own intelligence or based on the moment and it is not given the proper guidance and potency.
Going back to the topic at hand. I think that one point in the list of suggestions made by Bhakti Tirtha Swami is missing. The point of studying books and materials left by spiritual master. To develop a firm faith, firm standing and build an internal connection to our tradition, parivara and to Guru we have to learn siddhanta, tattva. Through that we will slowly understand Guru’s specific relationship to Krsna, how is he dear to Krsna and how we can help our Guru in his service. If we reach such realization then physical presence of Guru will be less important, because our service to him and through us his to Krsna will continue eternally.
Gopisvara Dasa - January 14, 2006 4:46 am
Bhakta Ivar,
I never mentioned it before,but I greatly appreciated many of your posts in the past and on several occasions thought your input to be the clearest and quite refreshing.Your recent post did seem a little critical,but maybe you were having a bad day.I've had many and you should have read some of the things I've written.So I urge you to stick around.Your viewpoint has a lot of value and will be sorely missed if you go.In any case,thanks for what you have contributed so far.
Haribol
Babhru Das - January 14, 2006 5:24 am
The only interaction you can have with a guru is with a living guru. There is no way we can be certain that the deceased guru is aware of us, or we are aware of the guru. When the guru dies, you glorify him through the established methods of worship (with a picture or a murti) and you read his books or whatever he has left behind. No need to recognize your guru in another devotee, or to channel him or whatever. Keep it simple.
Ivar, I appreciate your candor. I'd like to point out, though, that for a disciple, there's not question of a dead guru. When the guru passes from our vision, we serve his instructions just as we did when we could see him. Our connection is eternal. (Just what I mean by that word is more than I have time to explore here today.)
You wrote in another post that the only possible interaction is with a living guru. That is certainly true, and I'll tell you frankly that, although I'm not at all special as a disciple, I feel Srila Prabhupada's guidance in my life daily. And I feel it more this year than I did last year. We have to remain open to the possiblity of a certain degree of mysticism in such things, as ours is a mystical, supra-rational path. And, as with many of us here, that guidance often comes in the form of advice or service from Tripurari Maharaja. But my experience, and I doubt that mine is unique, is that it also comes in other ways that may be hard for others (or even, sometimes, ourselves!) to fully appreciate or accept.
Babhru Das - March 31, 2006 7:19 pm
I was thinking about a way to get the "entheogens" thread off the top of the list here, and realized that we seem to have lost Haridas' company. Does anyone know what's up with him? Part of me suspects that there was pressure from ISKCON for BT Swami's disciples not to seek guidance from extra-ISKCON gurus. Is this the case?
Vrindavandas - March 31, 2006 9:11 pm
I do not think there was any pressure of this nature. Many ISKCON people are well aware of BT Swami's request to Guru Maharaja at the end of his manifest lila. The idea that Guru Maharaja is the "bad guy" is pretty rare. Basically internal politics will always exist and since there is no real open communication between both sides, it will be hard to get certain issues resolved. Currently Guru Maharaja is having tremendous success when he travels and speaks. I recently had one senior GBC tell me personally that he was very grateful and excited that Guru Maharaja was going to areas that have been neglected and need help. This particular GBC also said that it would be nice if Guru Maharaja spent some time in his zone as well.
Babhru Das - March 31, 2006 10:54 pm
Thanks. This is all certainly good news if it means the tide may turn. And, as the Republicans say about Iraq (no analogy intended), we need to hear the good news, too. And, maybe, the names of those who express their appreciation. At least here they won't be faced with any repercussions from their institution. It may be a worthwhile project to explore how those channels of communtication could be opened, even a little at a time. Not everyone here is happily welcomed when they visit ISKCON programs--yet.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 2, 2006 3:43 pm
I was thinking about a way to get the "entheogens" thread off the top of the list here, and realized that we seem to have lost Haridas' company. Does anyone know what's up with him?
He received mantra diksa on behalf of Govinda Maharaja from Sripad Tridandi Maharaja in Caitanya Saraswata Math in June of 2005. He is taking siksa from his diksa guru now.
Babhru Das - April 2, 2006 9:45 pm
Thanks--I wasn't aware of that. It certainly explains his absence here, although Jananivas seems to find our company desirable.
Vrindaranya Dasi - April 3, 2006 12:43 am
Dandavats,
I think he may have left Govinda Maharaja's group, because he posted in an article that he is aspiring for diksa from Danavir Maharaja.
Ys,
Vrindaranya
Babhru Das - April 3, 2006 12:59 am
Holy cow!!! 
How does one go from BTSwami and Tripurari Maharaja to Danavir Maharaj?
Vrindaranya, could you send me a link to that article? I'm really curious to see what he says.
Karnamrita Das - April 3, 2006 12:16 pm
I was thinking about a way to get the "entheogens" thread off the top of the list here, and realized that we seem to have lost Haridas' company. Does anyone know what's up with him? Part of me suspects that there was pressure from ISKCON for BT Swami's disciples not to seek guidance from extra-ISKCON gurus. Is this the case?
Babhruji: Haridas was for a time estranged and banned from the BTSwami list (Bhakti-tirtha Swami's disciples discussion group) because he was upset that he was denied second initiation due to some politics--and he tended to be argumentative. Thus he found some tempory shelter here. Unfortunately he got into some dispute here as well with the author of this thread, and went back to BTSwami list (where he has been very active) and has again taken up his association with his Godbrothers, and is back to his hard line ISKCON stand, writing off this association and our Swami. I tried to talk to him about it but he never replied to me.
He must be very confused if he is looking to take reinitiation, and especially from such a stauch conservative as DM. Seems like he is a bouncing ball with no resting place, or a "fair weather" "disciple". I would also like that link Vrindaranyaji----by the way, any news on your book compiling service. I am very excited to see GM lectures transcribed, especially for making books for new people from certain introductory lectures at the yoga group and others
Karnam
Vrindaranya Dasi - April 3, 2006 4:15 pm
I would also like that link Vrindaranyaji----by the way, any news on your book compiling service. I am very excited to see GM lectures transcribed, especially for making books for new people from certain introductory lectures at the yoga group and others
Karnam
The article was on one the devotee websites a couple of months ago. I think it was the Sampradaya Sun.
I haven't had any time for book compiling because of other services, but I have an idea how we could work together to get some introductory booklets done. I'll email you directly.
Ys,
Vrindaranya
Jananivasdas - April 5, 2006 10:43 am
Babhru das Posted Apr 2 2006, 09:45 PMThanks--I wasn't aware of that. It certainly explains his absence here, although Jananivas seems to find our company desirable.
yes.im not running away from here because we are from different"family"!!! 
im not into politics...
Babhru Das - April 5, 2006 6:51 pm
yes.im not running away from here because we are from different"family"!!!
And we're glad you're not! (That goes for both things.) And I think we're all in the same family anyway--Mahaprabhu's. When I was a kid, I used to go to these huge family reunions, usually held at my uncle's house on a hill overlooking Santa Barbara (the same hill, if I remember correctly, where the TV station was). Every year I'd see great aunties and uncles, and lots of cousins, that I didn't hang out with every day, as I did with my father's sister and brothers and their spouses and children. And each year I'd meet cousins I had not met before. The same thing goes for us, I think. There are many devotees whose gurus I may or may not have met, but I accept them all as family and hope they'll do the same with me.