Tattva-viveka
Attaining liberation
Hari-priya Dasi - January 16, 2006 9:20 am
I have a question regarding the following verse (and its purport) in Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Adi-lila. More generally my question is about attaining liberation.
"Where it has been stated that the Lord's enemies and devotees attain the same destination, this refers to the ultimate oneness of Brahman and Lord Krsna. This may be understood by the analogy of the sun and the sunshine, in which Brahman is like the sunshine and Kṛṣṇa Himself is like the sun." (Sri Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi-lila, 5.36)
In purport Srila Prabhupada refers to the story of Jaya and Vijaya, the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha who took birth as different “demons” on earth. He explains how Hiranyakasipu didn’t recognize Lord Nrisimhadeva as Lord Vishnu. Nevertheless, because Hiranyakasipu was killed by Lord Nrisimhadeva, he received the blessing of becoming unlimitedly rich in his next life as Ravana. Finally Ravana was born as Sisupala who was envious of Krishna, but still kept uttering Krishna’s name and always thought of Krishna. The result became as follows:
“When Śiśupāla was killed by the Sudarśana cakra of Kṛṣṇa as an enemy, his constant remembrance of Kṛṣṇa dissolved the reactions of his vices, and he attained salvation by becoming one with the body of the Lord.” (C.C. Adi-lila 5.36, Purport)
Now I am getting a bit confused. Didn’t Jaya and Vijaya regain their original position as gatekeepers of Vaikuntha?
The five stages of liberation are listed e.g. in Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 4. These five stages are 1) becoming one with the Lord, 2) living on the same planet as the Lord, 3) obtaining the same bodily features as the Lord, 4) having the same opulence as the Lord and 5) having constant association of the Lord.
The first of the stages: becoming one or merging into the existence of the Lord is warned about again and again. Srila Prabhupada refers to it as a spiritual suicide and also writes quite strong statements about it also in this particular purport on C.C. So I am kind of wondering why would servants of Lord (gatekeepers of Vaikuntha) want to change their position to becoming one with the Lord?
I know there’s some kind of logical explanation to this. In fact Srila Prabhupada gives a clue in his purport by stating: “When it is said that Śiśupāla merged into the body of Kṛṣṇa, it should be noted that in this case he was not Jaya or Vijaya: he was actually a demon.” (C.C. Adi-lila 5.36, Purport)
Anyway I am not able to figure the rest of this out by myself. Can anyone help? 
Igor - January 16, 2006 3:19 pm
We can find answer in Krsna Book Chapter 74.
Srilla Prabhupada wrote:
"Sisupala's soul's merging into the transcendental body of Krsna reminds us of the story of Jaya and Vijaya, who fell to the material world from the Vaikuntha planets upon being cursed by the four Kumaras. For their return to the Vaikuntha world, it was arranged that both Jaya and Vijaya, for three consecutive births, would act as deadly enemies of the Lord, and at the end of these lives they would again return to the Vaikuntha world and serve the Lord as His associates"
So, Jaya and Vijaya returned to the Vaikuntha, to their original positions. Sisupala's merging was performed in order to show that even Krsna's enemies attain liberation, so what to say about devotees? After this lila was over, Jaya and Vijaya returned to Vaikuntha.
Swami - January 16, 2006 3:45 pm
This lila, the killing of Sisupala, occurs everytime Sri Krsna manifests his lila in the material world. However, it is not that Jaya and Vijaya, the gate keepers of Vaikuntha, come to the material world continually. They only come for three lives. So the case in question appears to involve another soul, not Jaya or Vijaya.
Another interesting point is that only when killed by Krsna do the demons attain any form of mukti, not when killed by Rama, or Narasingha for example. This illustrates the unique position of Sri Krsna as svayam bhagavan.
Sayujya mukti also carries different meanings for different devotees, some of which are positive, as inthe case of Baladeva Vidyabhusana and even Thakura Bhaktivinoda in one instance. See my Gopal-tapani commentary for insight on this. (Sorry, in index in this book). Let's see if anyone can find the section!
Igor - January 16, 2006 5:50 pm
<Another interesting point is that only when killed by Krsna do the demons attain any form of mukti, not when killed by Rama
Gurudev, I am confused. In Krsna book there is chapter “The liberation of Balvala” and Lord Balarama killed this demon by His plow. So, did Balvala attain any form of liberation? If not, why are this chapter named Liberation of Balvala? It seems that demons killed by Baladeva attain some form of mukti? Or I am wrong? Did Rama in your answer refer only to Ramacandra?
Madangopal - January 16, 2006 5:51 pm
From Purva-Tapani, verse 29 commentary:
In his Tattva-sutra, Bhaktivinoda Thakura also offers a novel understanding of sayujya mukti for Gaudiya Vaishnavas, one that identifies kaivalya with raga-bhakti. In his comments on sutra 19 he writes, "Sayujya means union with Brahman. Those Vaisnavas who are engaged in the sadhana of the sentiments of the gopis of Vrndavana can also refer to their practice as brahma-sayujya-sadhana."
GM also says earlier in the commentary that of the 5 types of liberation, four are in relation to Narayana and could be placed in the category of vaidhi-bhakti. Since sayujya (identification with Brahman; MERGE!) is not acceptable to Vaishnavas, the acaryas have given the raga-bhakti interpretation above.
The raga-bhaktas completely identify with Brahman, much more completely than the impersonalists. They have become ONE with Him in love!
Igor - January 16, 2006 6:55 pm
Few more questions
In his purport on CC:adi-lila.10.120 Srilla Prabhupada wrote:
“In the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika (115) it is said that the two brothers Jagai and Madhai were formerly the doorkeepers named Jaya and Vijaya, who later became Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu.”
So it seems that Jaya and Vijaya did not return to their original position after three births – they became Jagai and Madhai in Gaura lila.
Srilla Prabhupada wrote in this purport:
“As a result of chanting, both brothers became exalted devotees of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.”
So my questions are:
Did Jagai and Madhai ( Jaya and Vijaya) went to their position of doorkeepers of Vaikuntha after they had darsan of Lord Gauranga? They become exalted devotees of Sriman Mahaprabhu, so attaining position of doorkeepers of Vaikuntha again, after personal associating with Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu seems unfortunate.
Swami - January 16, 2006 7:39 pm
<Another interesting point is that only when killed by Krsna do the demons attain any form of mukti, not when killed by Rama
Gurudev, I am confused. In Krsna book there is chapter “The liberation of Balvala” and Lord Balarama killed this demon by His plow. So, did Balvala attain any form of liberation? If not, why are this chapter named Liberation of Balvala? It seems that demons killed by Baladeva attain some form of mukti? Or I am wrong? Did Rama in your answer refer only to Ramacandra?
I should say that genrally we see that this is the case: That only the demons killed by Krsna attain liberation. As for Baladeva, the Bhagavata explains thus:
sambaram dvividam bänam
muram balvalam eva ca
anyäms ca dantavakrädin
avadhit käms ca ghätayat
Of kings like Sambara, Dvivida, Bana, Mura, Balvala and many other demons, such as Dantavakra, some he (Krsna) killed himself, and some he killed through others [sri Baladeva].
Bhakta Ivar - January 17, 2006 2:01 pm
“In the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika (115) it is said that the two brothers Jagai and Madhai were formerly the doorkeepers named Jaya and Vijaya, who later became Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu.”So it seems that Jaya and Vijaya did not return to their original position after three births – they became Jagai and Madhai in Gaura lila.
Srilla Prabhupada wrote in this purport:
“As a result of chanting, both brothers became exalted devotees of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.”
So my questions are:
Did Jagai and Madhai ( Jaya and Vijaya) went to their position of doorkeepers of Vaikuntha after they had darsan of Lord Gauranga? They become exalted devotees of Sriman Mahaprabhu, so attaining position of doorkeepers of Vaikuntha again, after personal associating with Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu seems unfortunate.
It would be best to ask the author of Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika. Because we all can understand that the concept or theme of 'a sinful pair of brothers becoming liberated' reappeared in the stories of Jaya-Vijaya, Hiranyaksa-Hiranyakasipu and finally Jagai-Madhai. This doesn't raise any questions. But if they were literally the same persons, re-incarnating (with millions of years between such incarnations), all kinds of questions come up, as you have posed them. The person to answer such questions would be the one who has created these questions.
Isn't there a twin in the function of pujari in Sridhama Mayapura who some ISKCON devotees whisper were once actually Jaya and Vijaya? That's probably how Jagai and Madhai were initially associated with the myths of Hiranyaksa-Hiranyakasipu and Jaya-Vijaya. Shortly after Sri Caitanya disappeared, some writers started to link characters from Krsna-lila to characters in Gaura-lila. Appreciate the sentiment behind such statements, but don't become confused by the inevitable philosophical ramifications of literal interpretation.
There are many statements made by relatively recent Vaisnavas that will raise similar questions. Do not let yourself become confused by such issues.
As you know from the other thread, these statements come from someone (me) who has no authoriy to speak on such subjects, but in the past I have extensively pondered over these issues, and come to the above conclusion, which I think is valid and useful. I hope it will also be useful to you.
Ivar
Bhakta Ivar - January 17, 2006 2:13 pm
> However, it is not that Jaya and Vijaya, the gate keepers of Vaikuntha, come to the material world continually.
Perhaps it's helpful to remember that Jaya and Vijaya were the gatekeepers of a planet we call Vaikuntha, which is located at the zenith of this brahmanda (see Bhagavatam, try to read the Sanskrit of this section, or at least read the word for word translations), and thus situated within this material manifestation. So Jaya and Vijaya were not only situated at the gate (doorstep) of Vaikuntha, but also still within the material world. So they never fell from the spiritual world, and this is an important issue when discussing the controversial fall of the jiva.
If it shows something, it is that there will always be the danger of falling down, unless one is all the way inside Vaikuntha. And think about it: would the spiritual dimension really require doorkeepers? No. This is a myth, with a certain philosophical and theological intent. Not to be interpreted literally and to become confused about future or past incarnations.
Ivar
Swami - January 17, 2006 2:30 pm
The insight of Kavi Karnapura and others who identified various associates of Mahaprabhu with Krsna's associates is deep. Who would have thought that should svayam bhagavan himself appear in the world disguised as a devotee that he would not come alone? So many people consider someone an incarnation of Krsna or Krsna himself, but demonstrate their lack of realization about Krsna by not cosidering where the rest of his entourage is. Vrajendranandana Krsna is not alone. Kavi Karnapura and others understod this and gradually realized that they themselves were his associates from Vraja.
We consider that Jaya Vijaya returned for an encore appearance, so to speak, in Gaura lila. It is obvious from the lila that they were extrodinary devotees. As for the gates leading to Vaikuntha, there are seven of them, representing, in one sense, the stages of sadhana bhakti from sraddha to asakti before one enters the world of spiritual emotion in bhava. No one falls from Vaikuntha.
Igor commented:
" They become exalted devotees of Sriman Mahaprabhu, so attaining position of doorkeepers of Vaikuntha again, after personal associating with Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu seems unfortunate."
Everyone has their svarupa and their is nothing unfortunate about that.
Igor - January 17, 2006 9:27 pm
<Everyone has their svarupa and their is nothing unfortunate about that.
Sorry, I did not use right term. I wanted to say that it seems that on absolute level association of Mahaprabhu is "higher" then position of gatekeepers of Vaikuntha. More sweet. But, as you said there is nothing unfortunate about svarupa. That is original position.
Does it mean that svarupa is eternal and can not be changed?
Swami - January 18, 2006 12:27 am
<Everyone has their svarupa and their is nothing unfortunate about that.
Sorry, I did not use right term. I wanted to say that it seems that on absolute level association of Mahaprabhu is "higher" then position of gatekeepers of Vaikuntha. More sweet. But, as you said there is nothing unfortunate about svarupa. That is original position.
Does it mean that svarupa is eternal and can not be changed?
Changing bodies is there, as you know, not changing svarupas.
Igor - January 18, 2006 7:33 am
Thank you very much for answer. It is perfectly clear now! (and it is still acintya)