Tattva-viveka
Rarest Video Of Shri Shrila Prabhupada
Jananivasdas - January 31, 2006 2:17 pm
this video is awesome:
Bhrigu - January 31, 2006 3:44 pm
My first though was that it wasn't genuine. Srila Saraswati Thakur's movements look so artificial and except his right arm and head (a little), his body doesn't move at all. Then again, the source is Sripad Narasimha Maharaja and his team, and they are of course reliable. I've ordered the full DVD and will let you know what I think once I've received it.
Babhru Das - January 31, 2006 5:39 pm
My first though was that it wasn't genuine. Srila Saraswati Thakur's movements look so artificial and except his right arm and head (a little), his body doesn't move at all. Then again, the source is Sripad Narasimha Maharaja and his team, and they are of course reliable. I've ordered the full DVD and will let you know what I think once I've received it.
I also doubted its authenticity and therefore declined to comment on it or share it with anyone. But when I read that it was part of Narasingha Maharaja's project, and that the film was apparently discovered by Giri Maharaja, I'm willing to accept it, despite the wooden appearance. It simply may be that such footage was posed, as was much early photography. This was, after all, the early or mid 1930s, in India, so such "amatuer" filmmaking may well have been such a novelty that posed clips such as this could have been the norm.
Syamasundara - February 1, 2006 12:27 pm
I just get an error every time.
Jananivasdas - February 3, 2006 10:56 am
the movement is the thing that got to my eye too...
crazy...im waiting for bhrigus review of the dvd!
oh bhrigu!maybe i can join and check out the dvd too?? 
theres the link where you can download it:
http://gaurangapada.org/Videos/Rare/Shrila...a-Preaching.wmv
Syamasundara - February 3, 2006 12:28 pm
Same as before. Can any Mac user see it?
Bijaya Kumara Das - February 3, 2006 5:35 pm
It looked authentic to me. You must remember that in those days it was about very few frames per minute. In the old movies of charile chaplan it was much the same movements.
But why is the left arm smaller in stature and not moving at all ?
Audarya-lila Dasa - February 3, 2006 8:50 pm
Syamasundara,
I am not a mac user so I can't say what you need to do. Is there a windows media player version for mac's? That is the program that plays the video for me when I click on the URL.
Good luck!
Bijaya Kumara - It looks to me like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja is holding the book with his left hand. He seems to be using his arm and hand to keep the book still and as such has his left arm firm against his side.
Babhru Das - February 3, 2006 10:35 pm
Dhiralalita - February 6, 2006 1:49 pm
Same as before. Can any Mac user see it?
Yes, I can.
Bhrigu - February 6, 2006 6:49 pm
oh bhrigu!maybe i can join and check out the dvd too??
Sure, I'll give you a ring as soon as it arrives. They said two weeks, so one more to go...
Bhrigu - February 7, 2006 4:04 pm
They said two weeks, so one more to go...
In fact, the DVD arrived already today. Jananivas is coming over to see it tomorrow evening, so you can look forward to a review by Bhrinivas soon!
Bhrigu - February 8, 2006 7:28 pm
Now Jananivas and I have seen the DVD and it is time for some rather disorganised comments.
The film starts with a historical background on the British Raj in India. Very professional and well done; the narrator has a pleasant voice and sounds just like in old journal films. The chapter headings etc of the film are also in early-twentieth century silent film style, a good idea that works well throughout the film. However, the introduction leads one to believe that Srila Saraswati Thakur was part of India's freedom struggle. That is incorrect -- following Bhaktivinoda, he and the Gaudiya Math was staunchly loyalist.
After the intro, the film itself starts by narrating the birth and childhood of Bimala Prasad (incorrectly translated as "the mercy of Jagannath"), using black-and-white old pictures interspaced with new film material made black-and-white to not break the documentary mood of the film. At first I wasn't sure whether I liked this approach (which means that 90% of the film is B/W), but I got used to it. The quality of the material is very good, if not very original. Prabhupada narrates the episode of Bimala Prasada getting a garland from Lord Jagannath.
There is also a bit about the (real) Adbhuta-mandir of Mayapur being Yogapith, not the proposed new ISKCON temple, something that ISKCON:ites may find provoking.
The film continues in the same way chronologically, interspacing new material with the old pictures, most of which are familiar for those who have the "Saraswati Thakura" - book. There are interviews with Sripad Paramadvaiti Maharaja, our Swami , one Maharaja from Devananda Gaudiya Math, Sripad Yati Maharaj from Caitanya Math, Padmanabh Goswami from Radha-raman and a householder disciple of Saraswati Thakura whose name I forget right now. For me, the highlight was perhaps when Srila Sridhar Maharaja recounts the samadhi-rites of Srila Saraswati Thakura towards the end. Such a sweet voice and demenour he has! The film ends with describing the spread of the Sankirtana movement around the world through our Prabhupada, and after him, Sridhara Maharaja and Puri Maharaja.
The extras include more interviews, of which one with a female disciple of Saraswati Thakura was perhaps the most interesting one, articles (by Bhaktisiddhanta and by Nrisimha Maharaj, on the Adbhuta-mandir issue) + pictures.
All in all a very good documentary, in my opinion, one that I think all devotees should get. Credit was given to many disciples of Saraswati Thakur, perhaps most to Kunjabihari (later Bhaktivilasa Tirtha Maharaja), which is nice, since he has kind of a bad rep in ISKCON. However, the "Bagh Bazaar party", which is the direct "legal" successor to the original GM is completely ignored. No mention of Ananta Vasudeva at all (other than that some left the pure KC), and no footage from within the Bagh Bazaar temple. Since they have Saraswati Thakura's rooms with many of his items, I found this very strange. Perhaps they were not allowed to film? If the decision was political ("let's not have anything to do with the sahajiyas!"), it was not a very good one -- the film would have benefitted from footage from there, especially since many events narrated took place there.
But what about the footage of Bhaktisiddhanta preaching? Unfortunately, it seems to be faked. Apart from the "wooden" appearance of BSS himself, Jananivas and I found two things very suspect: 1) The film starts with footage of the Sri Caitanya Matha gate. In one of the interviews, modern footage (in colour) was shown of the same gate, from exacly the same angle -- and the gate looked exactly the same, even with regard to the paintings. Anybody with experience of India knows that paint lasts only a couple of years over there. It is also well-known that all the buildings were remodeled and expanded by Tirtha Maharaja. It is inconcievable that the gate would not have been touched for seventy years. 2) The gate footage is followed by a view of the dome of the Matha, and after that of the Sri-murtis. Some bhaktas pass in front of the camera from right to left, looking into it. One of them caught Jananivasa's eye, and sure enough, when we paused the film, he looked very Caucasian and white... If these parts of the film are fake, what are the odds that the BSS part would be genuine (especially since they all look the same)? I'm quite disappointed that Maharaja did such a thing. It will not reflect well upon him.
But otherwise the documentary is good and I recommend it to everyone. Srila Saraswati Thakura ki jay!
Bhrigu - February 9, 2006 8:17 am
Just noticed another analysis of the BSST videoclip (at http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/features/02-06/features199.htm) which comes to the same conclusion, but using other evidence. Devavision practically concedes by replying:
Indeed, "real" is a matter of perspective in the relativity of the Absloute. Calculation and detailed analysis in most cases lead to disbelief and eventually to atheism. This is certainly true when one analyzes the "reality" of the Deity, or in this case the film clip. By such analysis one cannot understand how Krsna is present in that form.
What can one say? Analyzing the reality of the film clip leads to atheism? The "gate" argument above also shows clearly that this is not material that Devavision "received" from some mysterious source.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - February 9, 2006 7:22 pm
First I would like to pay my deepest respects to Swami B. G. Narasingha and Swami B. B. Vishnu Maharaja. When I visited their Sri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha on Kaveri river in Srirangapatna last year I was very impressed by the extend they are propagating theory and practice of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Their books are excellent, movies informative, devotees are happy and cows are fat. I have spent sometime in the asrama associating with Vishnu Maharaja (Narasingha Maharaja was out managing new Kaliya-Mardana Krsna Asrama in Mulki) and was charmed by him.
Now about the controversy at hand. Unfortunately this short clip might cast a negative shadow on the whole movie. I did like the movie and portion with Srila Sridhar Maharaja was the best in my opinion, it was very touching and sweet. I think a simple word “re-enactment” could have saved a lot of grief for the movie makers. Unfortunately positioning the clip as “rarest video” might sound like a marketing trick. I personally don’t really care if the clip is fake (I do think it is a re-enactment), but it would be nice if Devavision states that it is instead of pushing back. The public is quite educated in special effects business now days, so undoubtly some people would go through the clip frame by frame to prove that it’s fake. Narasingha Maharaja, being a controversial figure as is, might see some eruption of negativity especially from ISKCON because of it.
Bijaya Kumara Das - February 10, 2006 7:39 am
Unfortunately positioning the clip as “rarest video” might sound like a marketing trick. I personally don’t really care if the clip is fake (I do think it is a re-enactment),
Indeed it is the rarest as some might think the use of the word rarest means newest.
As The New Universities Webster Dicitionary states. rare (adj) scare; uncommon; unusuall; thinly scattered; not dense; excellant; incomparable; of loose texture; almost raw. And if I understand est the suffix raise each definition to its highest form.
Jananivasdas - February 11, 2006 10:28 am
i found this while searching about the video:
From: Badrinarayan (das) ACBSP (San Diego - USA) Date: 27-Jan-06 20:59 -0500
(17:59 -0800)
To: GBC Discussions [15542]
Subject: Film snippet of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur
------------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna.
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It appears that there is more to the story of that little film snippet of
Srila
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, according to a devotee here in S.
California
who researched it. It is possible that the film is authentic.
According to our researcher, the source of the film is a disciple of Jagat
Guru
Swami (Narasingha Swami) named Gopavrindapal dasa who is writing a book on
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. Evidently, in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta
Sarasvati Thakur's time there was a photographer who took many photos of him
and also ran a photography shop. Gopavrindapal dasa found out the daughter
of
that photographer. In her house there were various previously unknown photos
of
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and in an almyra there were two films
in
cans. They were reduced to practically goo. One was unsalvageable but via an
expert in Singapore, a section of one of the films was salvaged. What was
posted on the internet is a section of that salvaged film. There is supposed
to
be more of it as well.
I have asked this devotee researcher to let me know the method whereby he
came
across the information above and, if it is possible to buy a DVD of the full
section of recovered film, how do we do so? I will let you know what he
says.
Your servant,
Badrinarayan dasa
Bhrigu - February 18, 2006 1:42 pm
My "review" of the DVD was forwarded to the devotees at Devavision, and I received the following answer from Sripad BV Giri Maharaja, which I am posting below with his permission. They have also replied to the article on the Sampradaya Sun website which I thought was convincing. So the case does not seem to be closed at all!
--
Dear Bhrgu Prabhu,
Pranams! Sri Sri Guru-Gaurangau Jayatah.
I happened to read your review of our documentary 'The Universal Teacher'-
thank you for your kind words of appreciation, However, I thought that I
should endeavor to clearify some points.
Regarding filming in the rooms of Prabhupada Sarasvati Thakura, the reason
why there was no footage of this was simply because the authorities there
adamantly refused to let us. Even after Sripada Paramadvaiti Maharaja spoke
to the secretary of the Gaudiya Mission who finally granted us permission,
at the eleventh hour he changed his mind and refused again. What to do?
As regards not mentioning Ananta Vasudeva by name, we don't think that is
was necessary nor appropriate considering what Srila Prabhupada and Srila
Sridhara Maharaja have said about him and the others that rejected the line
of Srila Sarasvati Thakura.
You mentioned in your review the gate at Caitanya Matha. Actually the gate
and the domes at Caitanya math are contemporary footage that were added by
us to the old film footage due to length of the narration. The original
footage was too fast and too short that we had to slow it down in order to
keep the proper pace with the narration. We then found that we still lacked
enough visuals and thus added the gate and dome shots with an old-film
effect (if you look closely you can see that these two extra pieces are
somewhat different to the rest of the clip). All the other clips that you
see (including Srila Sarasvati Thakura) are genuine.
I am afraid that the second point about the 'caucasian' walking past the
camera is incorrect (unless there was a Caucasian gentleman there during the
filming in the 30's!). I have watched that clip over and over again both as
the original 16mm footage and in the digitized format and the face has never
struck me as being Caucasian.
Anyhow, once again, thank you for your appreciation.
Tridandi-svami
BV Giri
---
In another letter, Giri Maharaja gave this reply to why they haven't given the exact details re. the source of the films:
I would be more than happy to give details about the source from where weobtained the film clip (and also some of the rare photos found in various
parts of the film - especially in the gallery in the bonus features section)
but we promised that we would not mention any details about her family,
address etc. She has had a number of painful experiences with Iskcon
(outrageous experiences I may add!) - the last thing she said she wants is
Iskcon devotees snooping around her house and asking a barrage of questions.
Suffice to say that our contact is a disciple of one of the last sannyasi
disciples of Sarasvati Thakura and her late grandfather was a direct diksa
disciple of Sarasvati Thakura. Most of her immediate family is connected to
various branches of the Gaudiya Matha. With respect, that is all the
information I can divulge at present.
To my suggestion that they make the rest of their unique footage available, Maharaja replied that he will speak with Narasimha Maharaja and that they might do so.
Swami - February 18, 2006 3:54 pm
Bhrigupada,
It concerns me that your "review" of the film was forwarded to Deva Vision, unless of course it was done with your permission. Tattva-viveka is an informal discussion group, where things may be said that one would not say or would say differently in public. If members feel that what they post on Tattva-viveka may end up in public view, this will undoubtedly make them more cautious in posting and thus compromise the atmsophere of this forum. So if your comments on the film under discussion were sent without your permission, I believe that an apology by one of the members is in order.
Swami
Bhrigu - February 18, 2006 6:56 pm
Dear Swami,
I hadn't been asked permission for the text to be forwarded, but I took no offense. I am sure that the devotee who forwarded it just wanted to give the Devavision devotees a chance to reply, which I felt was quite in order. Maharaja's reply was also quite nice. So I don't personally feel that any apology is necessary.
But in principle I agree that it would be best to always ask in advance, for the reasons you mention. The whole idea with a closed forum is of course that it is closed from outsiders, providing kind of a safe haven for the members. I have myself written several things here that I would not want anybody to spread outside this forum.
Your servant,
Bhrigupada Dasa
Bhrigu - May 21, 2006 5:51 pm
Swami - May 21, 2006 7:21 pm
Not sure if this is an official Iskcon site, but this page says it all.
http://www.iskcon.com/about/parampara/index.html
Notice where the succesion stops. There are more important issues to discuss when it comes to deception--sa kaleneha mahata yoga nastah parantapa. Regardless of the truth regarding the clip, the film itself seeks harmony and truth. Why is Iskcon preoccupied with this smaller issue?
Babhru Das - May 21, 2006 9:38 pm
The iskcon.com site appears to be pretty official. It may be that they're just stumped about how to characterize the parampara after Srila Prabhupada, although it shouldn't be hard to mention that the line coming through him is continued by his sincere disciples, or something like that.
I saw that critique video a while ago; it's amusing and well produced. (It did occur to me that someone has entirely too much time on their hands.) It point was ostensibly to point out that this particular clip was very cleverly faked, but that the video itself is well done and valuable to see. The commentator even said that we should buy the "Universal Teacher" video. At the end, I found myself wondering why these folks took so much trouble to point out a problem in a video they claim to endorse. I also can't understand why they've made it such a big deal, big enough that it warrants a space on their home page.
Swami:
Why is Iskcon preoccupied with this smaller issue?
I suspect it's because they can't agree among themselves how to deal with the larger issues. I've also encountered repeated squabbles about Dhira Govinda's workshops, some claiming they're designed to undermine devotees' faith with some sort of camouflaged ritvik ideas, some that it's psychotherapy, which is somehow replacing sadhana in devotees' lives. There seems to be considerable passion on both sides, sometimes bordering on hysteria. This seems symptomatic of the mentality in some corners of ISKCON these days. I have to say that I have also encountered some devotees who seem much more level headed with regard to these contentious issues.
Swami - May 22, 2006 1:51 am
I've also encountered repeated squabbles about Dhira Govinda's workshops, some claiming they're designed to undermine devotees' faith with some sort of camouflaged ritvik ideas, some that it's psychotherapy, which is somehow replacing sadhana in devotees' lives. There seems to be considerable passion on both sides, sometimes bordering on hysteria. This seems symptomatic of the mentality in some corners of ISKCON these days. I have to say that I have also encountered some devotees who seem much more level headed with regard to these contentious issues.
I don't know about his workshops, but he is a ritvik with a new title something like "Prominent Link." Madan Gopala would like to wirte a review of his book--a very good idea by the way.
Speaking of ritviks, it is interesting how the term siksa-guru parampra has creeped into their vocabulary, when I doubt it is found anywhere in the Veda Base. It comes to us through Sridhara Maharaja, and of course means something much different than what the ritviks and many of Prabhupada's disciples think it means. It has everything to do with guru parampara and nothing to do with freezing the succession.
Gauravani Dasa - May 22, 2006 2:44 am
siksa-guru-parampara is not mentioned anywhere in Prabhupasa's book. It is mentioned in a few Vyasa-puja offerings for him.
Sridhar Maharaja explains it in Sri Guru and His Grace:
"Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada has explained the siksa guru parampara in this way. Wherever we find the extraordinary line of the flow of love of God, and support for the same, we must bow down. That line may appear in a zigzag way, but still, that is the line of my gurudeva. In this way it is accepted. We want the substance, not the form."
Babhru Das - May 22, 2006 5:28 am
I didn't mean to take the thread off on a tangent. I mentioned the business with Dhira Govinda because it demonstrates some of the strife among the institution's members and leaders. Of course his idea is a soft-ritvik deal, and it's his own little thing, just as Rochan's is. And back to the thread's topic, the confusion in ISKCON over the whole business of continuing the parampara shows, as our Swami points out, in their inability to represent its continuation in writing.
Bhrigu - May 22, 2006 8:25 am
I also can't understand why they've made it such a big deal, big enough that it warrants a space on their home page.
Putting it on an official ISKCON page is rather odd. There is probably some institutional politics involved there. But otherwise I can understand part of the hulabaloo. After all, discovering previously unheard of film footage of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati is a major event. If that footage turns out to be a fraud and that the respected sannyasis at Devavision lied about it, well, that's quite something as well.
Madangopal - May 22, 2006 11:26 am
I will have to say that in my experience, Dhira Govinda keeps his philosophy out of his seminars. He is pretty professional about that. However, he certainly needs some help on the philosophy part.
ISKCON is in a quandry when dealing with "soft ritvik". Because they have come down so hard on real philosophical issues like the fall of the jiva and other Gaudiya's outside of ISKCON, they can't properly deal with soft ritvik because it is couched in Prabhupada sentiment. Sometimes it seems that is all ISKCON has left to stand on and they promote such sentimentalism themselves. They are reluctant to stand up and boldly say that the parampara continues on their strength, so they must tolerate deviation.
After all, ISKCON is supposed to be Prabhupada's society right? I may have said it before, but I just don't understand how it can work. An institution that is centered around a guru who is not present and that questions the loyalty (to that guru) of anyone who takes spiritual authority upon themselves - how can such a society work?
Last night I heard a very popular ISKCON guru/gbc speak all about the gift that Prabhupada has given in the form of ISKCON. There was a very small amount of philosophy (not the body) and the majority was Prabhupada glorification. The crowd was almost all veteran devotees. While the sentiment is nice and all, what was Prabhupada's example? His gift was bringing a philosophy. How much did he glorify his guru in public? Hardly! If we spend all our time talking about his coming to America and preaching around the world, the story of the beginning of the movement, we just become static.
Anyway, you all know this... Sorry, I got fired up.
Swami - May 22, 2006 12:00 pm
siksa-guru-parampara is not mentioned anywhere in Prabhupasa's book. It is mentioned in a few Vyasa-puja offerings for him.
Sridhar Maharaja explains it in Sri Guru and His Grace:
"Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada has explained the siksa guru parampara in this way. Wherever we find the extraordinary line of the flow of love of God, and support for the same, we must bow down. That line may appear in a zigzag way, but still, that is the line of my gurudeva. In this way it is accepted. We want the substance, not the form."
Very nice. Yes, the logical conclusion of understadning the import of the siksa guru parampara conception in relation to Srila Prabhbupada's disciples is that Sridhara Maharaja is the continuation of the guru parampara.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - May 22, 2006 8:25 pm
I wonder if Devavision will issue a statement... Devarsi Narada did pretty thorough dissection of the clip, good job. Unfortunately now Devavision got it's reputation soiled. Too bad, the whole thing could have been avoided.
Caitanya-daya Dd - May 23, 2006 1:22 pm
Putting it on an official ISKCON page is rather odd. There is probably some institutional politics involved there. But otherwise I can understand part of the hulabaloo. After all, discovering previously unheard of film footage of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati is a major event. If that footage turns out to be a fraud and that the respected sannyasis at Devavision lied about it, well, that's quite something as well.
i would have to agree with bhrigu prabhu.
Swami - May 23, 2006 1:49 pm
There is another controversy surrounding this film. The use of the Gita Govinda edition of Narayana Maharaja's group as an example of what BSST considered should not be circulated to the public. Yesterday I received an email regarding this from Narayana Maharaja's group containing their position in refutation of the film's point on this issue becasue I was featured in the film (http://www.unconventionalteachers.com/) . Then I received an emal form Narasingha Maharaja's group refuting their refutationwith the words of BSST as follows:
We have no objection to the hearing and chanting of Krsna's lila. Actually, Sri Hari's lila must be heard and chanted. Then only will the fallen jiva's natural taste for hearing about his own activities and his eagerness to hear useless talks be vanquished. There is no other remedy than this.
Factually there is no difference between chanting about the Lord's pastimes and chanting about the Lord's srngara-rasa. The conditioned jiva who still has anarthas should hear and chant about the pastimes of Lord Gauranga and the childhood pastimes of Krsna. If the unqualified attempt to hear and speak about the confidential pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna it will not bring auspiciousness to them, rather it will bring misfortune.
We should hear the Lord's glories only from Sri Gurudeva or the like, A true devotee will say - " I will only hear hari-katha from the holy lips of Sri Gurudeva and I will hear and speak about the Bhagavata that Sukadeva spoke from his lotus mouth. With guru-nistha I will hear and discuss about Krsna's Name, Form, Qualities and Pastimes according to the path of pure devotion as taught by Sri Gauranga as I have heard from Gurudeva. I will not hear from anyone else."
Hearing and chanting is certainly the best way, but it is not auspicious for anyone and everyone to hear and discuss intimate pastimes. Hearing and discussing the confidential pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda is the topmost type of worship and our eternal bhajana. However, this type of bhajana should not be taken to the public as it is unfitting and offensive.
"Apana bhajana-katha na karibe yatha tatha" (You must not disclose your confidential mood of bhajana to one and all) - one who desires all good fortune should follow this advice given by the acaryas. In a public assembly of different people we should chant the Holy Name, as well as prayers and songs that are in the mood of servitorship (dasya-rasa). When we have attained the proper qualification and we are in the association of only rasika devotees then we may hear more intimate songs and at the time of hearing such songs we may confidentially express our own bhajana according to our eternal position (svarupa). If we do otherwise we will attain the opposite result. If these songs must be abandoned to set a standard then so be it. We must give some benefit to the public. The practice of singing publicly the Lord's intimate pastimes by those who have not given up sense enjoyment and the desire for wealth are the activities that give Kali an occupation!
(From 'Sri Srila Prabhupader Upadesamrta')
Along with this from Narasingha Maharaja's group came the well known article of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja "Fools Rush In," which is too long to post here.
This controversy has more substance than the one raised by the Iskcon devotee. By the way, I had no idea what the emphaisis of the film would be. I was just asked to submit some footage of myself speaking about BSST.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - May 23, 2006 2:28 pm
What was the explanation of Narayana Maharaja's group for widely distributing Gita Govinda? I actually agree with Narasingha Maharaja's group regarding this subject -- this is not for everyone to freely get in the bookstore. Guru Maharaja, what is your stand on this issue?
Bhrigu - May 23, 2006 2:38 pm
On the "unconventional teacher"-website they write that publishing a book does not automatically mean that it is meant for everyone to read. I know that for me, parts of Gita-govinda and such books are too high, but I'm sure others are inspired in their KC by them. Then again, the swami who did most of the work on Gita-govinda is not a swami anymore...
To me it seems like Nrisimha Maharaja follows more closely the mood of Saraswati Thakur in this regard than Narayana Maharaja. Narayan Maharaja's guru BP Keshava Maharaja seems to have been in many ways been much akin to Nrisimha Maharaja. But does everyone have to be in the same mood?
Madangopal - May 23, 2006 5:20 pm
becasue I was featured in the film.
Guru Maharaj,
Are you featured in the film separately or are you the narrator at the time that Narayana Maharaj's Gita Govinda is shown?
I'm just wondering, because it does seem a bit confrontational 
to place the picture of NM's book at the same time that a narrator is saying BSST did not allow his disciples to read that book. In a sense you are being implicated in that picking of a fight, especially if they placed your narration right at the controversial section. As you said that you had no idea of the emphasis of the film, I'm wondering if DevaVision's use of your footage is allright with you?
Babhru Das - May 23, 2006 8:53 pm
Narayan Maharaja's first printing of Gita-govinda was 100 copies. Although that may not sound like street distribution numbers, my friend Vidagdha Madhava heard that the book was in fact being sold on the street in Bangalore (I think). And I personally know devotees who were excited to get a a copy when it came to Hilo who aren't even strict with themselves in the one area of concern that may naturally arise, much less aloof by virtue of their spiritual advancement.
I think that showing the cover of Narayan Maharaja's edition when discussing this topic naturally stirs controversy, and it's clear that Narasimha Maharaja has no interest in dodging such controversy. While I find his mood perhaps closer to Srila Sarasvati Thakura's and Srila Sridhar Maharaja's, not to mention Srila Prabhupada's, with regard to these matters, I'm less inclined to confrontation--at least to appearing to seek confrontation. I think Narasimha Maharaja's book on the authorized Sri Caitanya-Saraswat parampara is valuable (at least as much as I've read of it--I don't own this book), but I really like our Swami's presentation in Sri Guru-parampara.
Swami - May 24, 2006 12:01 am
Guru Maharaj,
Are you featured in the film separately or are you the narrator at the time that Narayana Maharaj's Gita Govinda is shown?
I'm just wondering, because it does seem a bit confrontational
I am featured seperately.
Sripada Narayana Maharaja's preaching, while apparently helpful to some devotees is hardly free from abuse in the name of raganuga bhajana, the likes of which Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura cautioned about. There are unfortuantely a number of glaring exmaples in the group of this kind of abuse. Therefore Sripada Narasingha Maharaja's complaint is justifiable, however nicely Narayana Maharaja's sanga can make it appear in writing as if they stop short in their preaching of crossings the line drawn by Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupad. In voicing his complaint Narasingha Maharaja is hardly alone. The Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti founded by Sri B.P. Kesava Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja's guru, excommunicated Narayana Maharaja a couple of years ago for the same concerns that Narasingha Maharaja raises.
Prominent members of Narayana Maharaja's sanga have also abused my students considerably over the years and publicly attacked me on two occasions, each of which were not only unbecoming, but moreover, as the written record demonstrates for the discriminating reader, they were philosophically errant.
Still there are many nice devotees in their group. I have more to say on this matter, but I will stop here.
Babhru Das - May 24, 2006 5:04 am
Sripada Narayana Maharaja's preaching, while apparently helpful to some devotees is hardly free from abuse in the name of raganuga bhajana, the likes of which Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura cautioned about. There are unfortuantely a number of glaring exmaples in the group of this kind of abuse. Therefore Sripada Narasingha Maharaja's complaint is justifiable, however nicely Narayana Maharaja's sanga can make it appear in writing as if they stop short in their preaching of crossings the line drawn by Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupad. In voicing his complaint Narasingha Maharaja is hardly alone. The Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti founded by Sri B.P. Kesava Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja's guru, excommunicated Narayana Maharaja a couple of years ago for the same concerns that Narasingha Maharaja raises.
Yes, and I've heard Narayana Maharaja's folks try to spin that split in two different ways. One is that the GVS leaders just don't understand what he has to do to preach to and encourage Westerners. (There may be something to that, but I feel they overplay it.) The other spin is that he initiated a separate trust for serving the Western devotees. However his followers paint it, he alienated himself from GVS by his indiscriminate preaching. And even here, I've heard devotees who admire much that he has done complain about just that indiscriminate hari-katha, the quick-and-easy inititiations, and many other things. A couple of years ago, one of the more vocal leaders of his group (someone who has publicly criticized Swami) gave a talk in Hilo that was supposed to be about her experience with Srila Prabhupada in ISKCON's early days. She did that, but then she turned it into a rant against all who suggest that he might be something other than a manjari in his siddha deha. Vidagdha, my wife, and I found the topic patently and inherently inappropriate just by itself. Beyond that, Vidagdha and I were so incensed by the thrust of her presentation that many other devotees could see it. Mulaprakriti gave this lady such a talking-to that she felt compelled to call us both and apologize. However, although I accepted her apology, I didn't take it all that seriously, understanding her nature. And here she is with this Web site designed to promote Narayana Maharaja and vilify Narasimha Maharaja under the cover of expressing appreciation for his video.
Prominent members of Narayana Maharaja's sanga have also abused my students considerably over the years and publicly attacked me on two occasions, each of which were not only unbecoming, but moreover, as the written record demonstrates for the discriminating reader, they were philosophically errant.Still there are many nice devotees in their group. I have more to say on this matter, but I will stop here.
I have many friends in that group who I think are very sweet devotees, serious about making spiritual progress. And I also know some things about devotees lured into their group on the pretense of giving them guidance and inspiration they can't get elsewhere, but who are in worse shape in many ways than they were before. I won't get more specific here.
Sarah Trickler - May 31, 2006 3:29 pm
A couple of years ago, one of the more vocal leaders of his group (someone who has publicly criticized Swami) gave a talk in Hilo that was supposed to be about her experience with Srila Prabhupada in ISKCON's early days.
Who was that lady?
Babhru Das - May 31, 2006 11:48 pm
Sarah, I originally included her name in my post but edited it out so this didn't become about her. (Of course, at least to the extent she's involved with the "Unconventional Teachers" Web site, it is.) If you email me at williamr{at}hawaii{dot}edu, I'll be glad to tell you privately.
Gaurangi-priya Devi - June 2, 2006 11:55 pm
I just saw on Krishna.com that they have put together a "Spiritual Documentaries" DVD set and one of the DVD's is Universal Teacher! I was happy to see that they are selling it. I assume they are doing it with permission of Devavision. There are some other DVD's like Kumbhamela and Himalayan Pilgramage that I am wondering are from Devavision. Now I would really like to see them sell Agnideva's Cd's and Gurumaharaj's books. Someday......I hope!
Swami - June 4, 2006 3:33 pm
I just saw on Krishna.com that they have put together a "Spiritual Documentaries" DVD set and one of the DVD's is Universal Teacher! I was happy to see that they are selling it. I assume they are doing it with permission of Devavision. There are some other DVD's like Kumbhamela and Himalayan Pilgramage that I am wondering are from Devavision. Now I would really like to see them sell Agnideva's Cd's and Gurumaharaj's books. Someday......I hope!
Where did you see this? I looked for it but could not find it. Himalayan pilgramage and Kumbhamela are both Devavision productions.
Gaurangi-priya Devi - June 4, 2006 4:57 pm
Where did you see this? I looked for it but could not find it. Himalayan pilgramage and Kumbhamela are both Devavision productions.
I'm on Krishna.com mailing list, so on Friday I got a letter in my e-mail titled, Spiritual Documentaries. I went to the link, and they had a DVD collection set with about 10 documentary films, one of them Universal Teacher. But as you say, today when I clicked on the link it says no product found. Strange.
Swami - June 4, 2006 8:00 pm
I'm on Krishna.com mailing list, so on Friday I got a letter in my e-mail titled, Spiritual Documentaries. I went to the link, and they had a DVD collection set with about 10 documentary films, one of them Universal Teacher. But as you say, today when I clicked on the link it says no product found. Strange.
Yes, it looks like they pulled them. Maybe you could respond to the email you received and ask what's up.
Gaurangi-priya Devi - June 6, 2006 12:50 am
Yes, it looks like they pulled them. Maybe you could respond to the email you received and ask what's up.
As of today it is back on the site. Click Here!
Under company it says ITV... hmm.
Babhru Das - June 6, 2006 5:02 am
Maybe Nrsimhananda is distributing them for Maharaja. I don't think krishna.com is allowed to sell stuff that doesn't have the BBT (or ISKCON, or whoever) imprimatur.