Tattva-viveka

respecting the avatara

Madangopal - April 10, 2006 4:55 pm

Taking the recent instructions available in the topic on Being in the World (Nrsimha avatara, differing moods, etc.), I would like to ask a question. How is it a devotee with a specific sentiment honors the descent of other avataras though lacking a taste for that specific manifestation of the Lord?

I guess my instinct tells me that we Krsna-ize (if our sentiment is for Krsna) that guna, rupa, lila, etc. That we see it through our sentiment. That would require the direction of guru. I was thinking of this on the recent Rama-navami. Rama lila is fascinating and adventurous. There is so much dharma involved. I personally find Krsna lila sweeter, more humorous and deeper. And Gaura lila is the sweetest because it is the kirtan of Krsna lila!

Gaura lila also demonstrates the honoring of other avataras, as Gaura honors the devotion of his bhaktas like Murari Gupta. But this just seems like a pastime to demonstrate that Gaura is Krsna - the source of all avataras.

Our sampradaya stresses Krsna bhakti above all else, yet we honor the other avataras. Sometimes I wonder - Why? Is it just to spread the message of krsnas tu bhagavan svayam to those who are attracted to the other aspects of bhagavan?

Madangopal - April 10, 2006 6:52 pm

Another thought in the same line that has influenced my thinking for some time:

A sadhu (semi-ISKCON devotee) I know in Vrndavana once joked with me about the Nrsimha pranati "the residents of Vraja don't worship Narahari when Indra comes to annihilate them. They cry out 'Krsna Krsna maha-baho!'" The implication being that for protection, for anything the devotee of Krsna only sees Krsna as influential.

But then what is the implication of Prabhupada establishing such worship in the time that he was ill?

Madangopal - April 10, 2006 8:11 pm

The implication being that for protection, for anything the devotee of Krsna only sees Krsna as influential.

To counter this, the gopis worship Katyayani to get Krsna as their husband.

This is definitely a question of the influence of one's devotion. A highly qualified devotee may shun or advocate the worship of an aspect of the Lord or even demigod for entirely different considerations than the neophyte. Any thoughts?

Babhru Das - April 10, 2006 8:12 pm

Another thought in the same line that has influenced my thinking for some time:

A sadhu (semi-ISKCON devotee) I know in Vrndavana once joked with me about the Nrsimha pranati "the residents of Vraja don't worship Narahari when Indra comes to annihilate them. They cry out 'Krsna Krsna maha-baho!'" The implication being that for protection, for anything the devotee of Krsna only sees Krsna as influential.

But then what is the implication for Prabhupada establishing such worship in the time that he was ill?

There also seems to be some similar sentiment among members of Sripad Narayan Maharaja's group. I remember that when several of them had moved here, they protested that chanting Nrisingha-pranati sends Radha and Krishna far away. However, many of us already here had deep roots in ISKCON culture and assured them that Srila Prabhupada himself initiated this practice. Moreover, we often had programs at the Temple of the Golden Volcano of Divine Love in Honokaa, where the devotees worshiped an Ugra-Nrsingha sila, and it was the devotees' practice there to chant Nrisingha-pranati to pacify him. So we chant these prayers at the end of many of our kirtans, even at the temple in Hilo.

I'm not sure what Madan-Gopal refers to by establishing worship of Nrisinghadeva when he was ill. He established chating the Nrisingha-pranati in the spring of 1970. When he was ill in 1974, we had 24-hour kirtans in all ISKCON centers.

There's an interesting passage in Ch. 5 of Sri Chaitanya Bhagavat's madhya khanda, in which Vrindavan das Thakura describes some symptoms of the kanistha adhikari:

The scriptures state that when a foolish wretch worships the lotus feet of a brahmana and then strikes him on the head, he will be sure to go to hell. Similarly, when someone worships the Deity of Sri Visnu, but disrespects or disregards Sri Visnu residing within everyone's heart, he also goes to hell. What to speak of committing offence and violence to a Vaisnava devotee! If someone offends or tortures even an ordinary living entity, yet worships Sri Visnu, the Lord of every living entity, then all his worship is worthless, and he suffers great pain. To worship Sri Visnu on one hand, and be ignorant about Sri Visnu being the Supersoul in everyone's heart on the other, is like touching a brahmana's feet for a blessings with one hand, and then beating him on the head with the other.
Such foolish persons do not know what is most beneficial for them. To criticize a Vaisnava devotee is a thousand times more sinful than offending an ordinary living entity. The person who faithfully worships the Deities, but has no love and respect for the devotees, also does not possess any compassion for the ignorant and fallen conditioned souls. He accepts one incarnation of the Supreme Lord and worships Him, while he rejects another. He treats Sri Krsna differently from Sri Ramacandra, seeing a difference between Them. He does not show any respect or devotion for Balarama or Siva. Such persons are described in the scriptures as the lowest and weakest of devotees.

The Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.47. states: "A devotee who faithfully engages in the worship of the Deity in the temple, but does not behave properly toward other devotees or people in general is called a prakrta-bhakta, an impure materialistic devotee, and is considered to be a kanistha-adhikari in the lowest position. In the course of discussion, I have just briefly mentioned the symptoms of a neophyte devotee incidentally.

Igor - April 10, 2006 8:19 pm

Good points Babhru! Haribol!

Our relationship with Krsna is sum and substance, that is color and taste that have influence on all other things. Regarding this topic, specific sentiment of devotee will affect his vision and understanding of other avatars. We have many examples. Anupama was great devotee of Lord Ramacandra and he had not changed his sentiment even in the presence of Lord Gauranga! Devotee of Krsna will see – “Oh, here is my Lord Krsna, he is playing such role – Nrsimhadeva, he is so strong! Actually, Prahlada Maharaja had that vision that Nrsimhadeva is actually his Lord Krsna! That is interesting!

Krsna’s glories are unlimited and by honoring other avatars we have some understanding about that – he have unlimited pastimes and forms. Those avatars and manifestations are just like spice – fine tuning and variety of absolute.

<I know in Vrndavana once joked with me about the Nrsimha pranati "the residents of Vraja don't worship Narahari

I am not sure, but I think that there is Deity of Lord Nrsimhadeva in Nanda Maharaja house. We should try to folow footsteps of Lord Caitanya and disciplic succession.

From Caitanya caritamrta

“After seeing the Deity of Lord Nrsimha in the temple, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu offered His respectful obeisances by falling flat. Then, in ecstatic love, He performed various dances, chanted, and offered prayers. " All glories to Nrsimhadeva! All glories to Nrsimhadeva, who is the Lord of Prahlada Maharaja and, like a honeybee, is always engaged in beholding the lotuslike face of the goddess of fortune.”

Madangopal - April 10, 2006 8:33 pm

I'm not sure what Madan-Gopal refers to by establishing worship of Nrisinghadeva when he was ill.

I meant the worship through the chanting of Nrsimha pranati. I believe he was ill and said to the devotees that he would teach them that "very powerful" mantra to pray for the protection of their spiritual master.

This raises the question of whether he meant it to be established forever afterwards. Also, would he approve of the establishment of Nrsimha deities in many places, or is that going overboard? Finally, is this an aspect of Prabhupada's bhava that needs clarification from enlightened persons? While I can appreciate the sentiment that Narayana Maharaj's group expressed, I suspect there is more to this than they thought about.

Guru Maharaja, you don't have Nrsimha pranati in your kirtan program. Will you after you establish the Nrsimha salagram worship? What will be the mood in worship of Nrsimha?

Babhru Das - April 10, 2006 8:42 pm

And doesn't Mahaprabhu have an intimate associate named Pradyumna Brahmachari, whose devotion for Lord Nrisinghadeva was so strong that Mahaprabhu changed his name to Nrisinghananda Brahmachari? Early in Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktivinoda Thakura has Prema das babaji and his new disciple, still dressed as an advaitin sannyasi, visit Pradyumna Brahmachari, who is Prema das babaji's guru, at the temple of Nrisinghadeva where he lived.

Swami - April 10, 2006 9:14 pm

There also seems to be some similar sentiment among members of Sripad Narayan Maharaja's group. I remember that when several of them had moved here, they protested that chanting Nrisingha-pranati sends Radha and Krishna far away.

Let me give you an example of the opposite occuring. The devotion of Prahlada corresponds with the appearance of Narasinghadeva. They are one and different simultaneously. It is well documented that Gopala Bhatta Goswami was deeply and prayerfully contemplating the intensity of Prahlada's bhakti and how it caused Sri Narasinghadeva to appear from a stone pillar. He contemplated this great wonder while also wishing he had his own Deity to offer seva-puja to, and also while hoping that Mahaprabhu would soon fulfill his promise to visit him in Vrindavana. When he awoke Radha Raman, who is considered to be nondifferent from Maharpabhu, appeared from one of his saligram stones.

It is also worth noting that Srimad Bhagavatam makes it very clear in many places that Prahlada' ista devata was Krsna. I cited amy of these references in answer to a question about his devotion in one sanga. If anyone can look it up and post it as a reference it will be time well spent. The point here is that Narasinghadeva is a special manifestation of Krsna—Krsna appearing in a form suitable to the circumstances, the protection of Prahlada. Of course Prahlada is a vaidhi bhakta. So he worshiped Krsna in vaidhi bhakti, not raganuga bhakti.

Still Sri Narahari is prominant in Gaura-lila, which is our approach to raga bhakti. In his Navadwipa-bhava taranga, Thakura Bhaktivinoda offers the following prayers to Sri Narasinghadeva in his Navadwipabava-taranga:

e dusta hrdaye kama adi ripu chaya

kutinati pratisthasa sathya sada raya

hrdaya-sodhana ara krsnera vasana

nrsimha-carane mora ei to' kamana

Within my sinful heart the six enemies headed by lust perpetually reside,

as well as duplicity, the desire for fame, plus sheer cunning. At the lotus

feet of Lord Narasimha, I hope that He will mercifully purify my heart and

give me the desire to serve Lord Krsna.

kandiya nrsimha-pade magibo kakhana

nirapade navadvipe jugala-bhajana

bhaya bhaya paya yan'ra darsane se hari

prasanna hoibo kabe more daya kari

Weeping, I will beg at the lotus-feet of Lord Narasimha for the benediction

of worshipping Radha and Krsna in Navadvipa, perfectly safe and free from

all difficulties. When will this Lord Hari, Whose terrible form strikes

fear into fear itself, ever become pleased and show me His mercy?

yadyapi bhisana murti dusta-jiva-prati

prahladadi krsna-bhakta-jane bhadra ati

kabe va prasanna ho'ye sa krpa-vacane

nirbhaya karibe ei mudha akincane

Even though Lord Narasimha is terrifying toward the sinful souls, He offers

great auspiciousness unto the devotees of Lord Krsna headed by Prahlada

Maharaja. When will He be pleased to speak words of compassion unto me, a

worthless fool, and thereby make me fearless?

svacchande baiso he vatsa sri-gauranga-dhame

jugala-bhajana hau rati hau name

mama bhakta-krpa-bale vighna jabe dura

suddha cite bhajo radha-krsna-rasa-pura

He will say, "Dear child! Sit sown freely and live happily here in Sri

Gauranga-dhama. May you nicely worship the Divine Couple, and may you

develop loving attachment for Their Holy Names. By the mercy of My

devotees, all obstacles are cast far away. With a purified heart, just

perform the worship of Radha and Krsna, for such worship overflows with

sweet nectar."

ei boli' kabe mora mastaka-upara

sviya sri-carana harse dharibe isvara

amani jugala-preme sattvika vikare

dharaya lutibo ami sri-nrsimha-dvare

Saying this, will that Lord delightedly place His own divine lotus-feet

upon my head? I will experience sublime love for the Divine Couple

Radha-Krsna and undergo the ecstatic transformations called sattvika.

Falling on the ground, I will roll about at the door of Sri Narasimha's

temple.

Radhanama Dasa - April 10, 2006 9:33 pm

Q. You have written that the istadevata (worshipable deity) of Prahlada is Krsna but other teachers say that his istadevata is Visnu. In Brhad-Bhagavatamrta, Prahlada is said to be in santa rasa (neutrality) but there is no santa rasa in Vraja, rather what is perceived as santa rasa in Vraja is actually dasya (servitude), sakhya (friendship) etc. So how can you say that the "istadevata of Prahlada is Krsna and no one else"?

A. Prahlada's guru was Narada, whose istadevata is Krsna. When asked by his father about what he learned Prahlada said, matir na krsne paratah svato va... : "Inclination toward Krsna is never aroused in persons too addicted to sense gratification and materialistic life."

Sukadeva Goswami tells Raja Pariksit that Prahlada had rati for the son of Vasudeva (Krsna), vasudeve bhagavati yasya naisargiki ratih, and further, krsna-graha-grhitatma, "He was fully absorbed in thought of Krsna, who affected his consciousness like an astrological influence." Sukadeva also said, govinda-parirambhitah: "He was embraced by Govinda (and thus oblivious to the normal functions of life)." It is also mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.12.19) that Pariksit Maharaja would "be patient like Bali Maharaja and a stauch devotee of Krsna like Prahlada," dhrtya bali-samah krsne prahrada iva sad-grahah. Finally, the Prahlada-Narasimha lila is described as a narration about Krsna, esa brahmanya-devasya krsnasya ca mahatmanah. Because it is also obviously about the devotion of Prahlada, it follows that Prahlada's devotion is for Krsna.

Prahlada was a devotee of Krsna and Krsna protected him by manifesting his cakra in the form of Narasimhadeva. However, his devotion to Krsna does not mean that he was a Vraja bhakta. Only those who worship Krsna in raga-marga following the bhava of the residents of Vrndavana attain the ideal of Vraja bhakti. Prahlada is a vaidhi bhakta.

Regarding santa rasa, all acaryas do not agree with the idea that there is no expression of santa rasa in Vraja where Krsna is Rasaraja. The name Rasaraja indicates one who relishes rasa to the fullest extent, thus including all rasas.

Swami - April 10, 2006 9:44 pm

I meant the worship through the chanting of Nrsimha pranati. I believe he was ill and said to the devotees that he would teach them that "very powerful" mantra to pray for the protection of their spiritual master.

This raises the question of whether he meant it to be established forever afterwards. Also, would he approve of the establishment of Nrsimha deities in many places, or is that going overboard? Finally, is this an aspect of Prabhupada's bhava that needs clarification from enlightened persons? While I can appreciate the sentiment that Narayana Maharaj's group expressed, I suspect there is more to this than they thought about.

Guru Maharaja, you don't have Nrsimha pranati in your kirtan program. Will you after you establish the Nrsimha salagram worship? What will be the mood in worship of Nrsimha?

I do not remember Prabhupada teaching us to pray to Sri Narasinghadeva for his protection. I remember that he instituted the Narasingha pranati that Mahaprabhu himelf uttered in Puri Dhama along with the stotram from Sri Jayadeva's Dasa Avatara Strotom found at the beginning of his Gita Govinda, a very high rasika sastra. Apparently Jayadeva was not worried about disturbing the divine couple when he prefaced his book with the this stotram, a poem that under scrutiny speaks of krsans tu bhagavan svayam while glorifying ten of Krsna's avataras.

The inhabitants of Vrindavana worship Narasingha for the protection of Krsna, as they do Narayana and his other avataras. Prabhupada worshiped him for the protection of Sri Krsna nama sankirtana, something Sri Narasinghadeva did in Gaura-lila.

Here at Audarya we will worship Narasingha sila with the prayers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda cited earlier. However, I have no objection to the sining of Jayadeva's stotram and recommend it for the appearance days of the various avataras mentioned therein.

I also worship Narasinghadeva with a prayer to understand the meaning of Srimad Bhagavatam, as he revealed its meaning to the ancient Sridhara Swami. It was Sridhara Swami's commentary that Mahaprabhu so praised. I first offered this prayer in Jaipura, where Sri Jiva Goswamis' Radha Damodara are served along with a Deity of Narasinghadeva.

Having written all of this I do think it is important to an appropriate conceptual orientation to the worship of Narasinghadeva so that one does not end up in Vaikuntha. And unfortunately a good number of so called devotees of Naraighadeva are attracted to him for the wrong reasons and are prone to "fighting with demons." The example is Prahalada, so gentle. Those who understand this sad aisvarya form of Bhagavan become gentle.

Let's hear somthing from someone else. Don't be shy.

Madangopal - April 10, 2006 11:24 pm

Just for reference as to when the Nrsimhadeva prayers started I looked it up in Prabhupada lilamrta.

After Prabhupada had what appears to be a heart attack in May 1967,

"Devotees entered the front room of the apartment, and Prabhupada told them to chant Hare Krsna. Then he told them to pray to Krsna in His from of Nrsimhadeva. Satsvarupa: Swamiji said we should pray to Lord Nrsimha and the prayer should be 'My master has not finished his work.' Jadurani: He taught us the prayers to Lord Nrsimhadeva. He said the words one by one, and I wrote them down. I called up the temples in San Francisco and Montreal and told them the prayer. Swamiji said, 'You should pray to Krsna that, my spiritual master has not yet completed his work, so please let him finish.'

Could any of the senior devotees tell us if Nrsimha prayers were institutionalized after every kirtan from this point on? Now in ISKCON temples it is standard after every kirtana, though I tend to think it could use some context like for example if a Nrsimha deity is present or not, or for Nrsimha Caturdasi.

Thank you Guru Maharaj for all of that context for the worship of Nrsimha amongst the Gaudiyas and clarification as to the proper orientation. Those are wonderful prayers by Bhaktivinoda. In the same mood I have heard that we worship Nrsimha to remove obstacles on our path of devotion.

Babhru Das - April 11, 2006 12:44 am

.Could any of the senior devotees tell us if Nrsimha prayers were institutionalized after every kirtan from this point on? Now in ISKCON temples it is standard after every kirtana, though I tend to think it could use some context like for example if a Nrsimha deity is present or not, or for Nrsimha Caturdasi..

I can't really say anything about other temples, but we started chanting the Nrisingha prayers some time in the spring of 1970 in Honolulu. We didn't chant them earlier in the year, and I don't remember clearly any instructions about why we started (I was pretty new), except that Srila Prabhup1ada wanted us to do so. And the prayers were probably not new to Goursundar and Govinda dasi because they took care of Srila Prabhupada when he was recovering in 1967.

Swami - April 11, 2006 1:26 am

Thank you for that bit of history Madana Gopala.

It is interesting to note that Srila Prabhupada told us to pray in one way in the beginning of his preaching and a different way as he neared the end of his preaching lila. In the beginning he asked us to petition Bhagavan Narasingha to protect his preaching—the message of Gaura, the order of Sri Radha's handmaiden, Nayanamani. In the end he asked us to pray to Krsna, "My dear Lord Krsna, if you so desire, please save Srila Prabhupada," something like that.

We find the worship of Narasingha Bhagavan in the adi and madhya lilas of Gaura, but it is for the most part absent in his Antya-lila. His antya-lila is filled with exclusive worship of Radha Govinda—Govinda in the bhava of Radha.

In Bhaktivinoda Thakura's prayers to Sri Narahari above, he shows us how to pray to attain eligibility for raganuga-bhakti. Having attained such eligibility or better stated jata-ruci raganuga-bhakti, the worship of Narahari Bhagavan will certainly diminish in the life of the raganuga-sadhaka as he or she focuses exclusively on his or her ista devata. However, in perfection it may again surface in an effort to achieve something for one's dearmost, Sri Krsna. This is praying to God to accomplish something for Krsna while being unaware due to the influence of yogamaya that Krsna is svayam bhagavan.

As for when the Narasingha prayers were chanted in Iskcon during my membership, all of the temples chanted them after the kirtana that accompanined an arati (after the prema-dvhani).

Rebekah - April 21, 2006 4:56 pm

I'm very interested in hearing the lilas. Anywhere I could check out where they arent too difficult for me to piece together?

Caitanya-daya Dd - April 25, 2006 2:52 am

how did i miss this thread? Yikes ...

Guru Maharaja mentions Jiva Goswami's deities in jaipur. I wanted to share pictures i took of them for those who may never have seen them. There are the original Radha-Damodara, and then next to Nrsimhadeva are Govinda and Sita-Rama (i affectionately call that their duran duran outfit :rolleyes: )

Jananivasdas - April 25, 2006 1:54 pm

here's a little part of an email that i got from srila narayana maharaja when i was in his group.i asked him about worshipping narasimhadeva murti at home:

Yes, you can have a murti of Sri Narasimhadeva on your altar,

harm, but better is to give it a special place in your house. Not

together

with other pictures of Krishna.

Your ever well-wisher,

Swami B.V. Narayan