Tattva-viveka
Spiritual world questons
Igor - May 11, 2006 7:54 am
Dear Swami and devotees, my wife Marija and I would like to get answer to this important question. I am not sure if there was discussion about that topic in forum. There were many discussions about this topic among devotees, but I want to know your opinion and siddhantha. Anyway here is question…
1. Did we had been in spiritual world and did we felt down in this material world
2. or we never been there ( some devotees are saying) that we emanated from Karonadakasayi Visnu and got free will to choose – where we want to be in material or spiritual world?
If we felt down from spiritual world, how it is possible that we on such perfect place were unperfected, that we desired to leave that place? How it is possible when we are on that place full of bliss, knowledge and happiness, especially full of knowledge, so we should know how it looks like to live in material world!
If second argument is true, that we never had been in spiritual world, so how we can understand that we have eternal relationship, rasa with Supreme Lord, if we had never been there? It is said that when person is pure enough by practicing this process – eternal identity (rasa) will be reveled. How it is possible if we did not have that relation with Supreme Lord?
Could you please elaborate about this topic, or at least give us tattva-viveka siddhanta about that.
Thank you very much. Hare Krsna
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - May 15, 2006 6:20 pm
I think it would be beneficial for you to read this article by Swami B. B. Visnu of Sri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha who discusses this topic.
Swami - May 15, 2006 9:49 pm
The conditioned soul is called "nitya baddha" becasue its conditioning is "anadi" (without beginning). However, although its material conditioning has no beginning, it can come to an end. It comes to an end when the same soul becomes a sadhana-siddha, having come in touch with bhakti through the guru parampara. The conditioned soul is one particle of one of the sakti's of the Paramatma (jiva/tatastha sakti). As such it is also a partial manifestation of Bhagavan's svarupa-sakti, in as much as the Paramatma is a partial manifestation of Bhagavan. The nitya-baddha jiva's potential to leave the Paramatma's srsti-lila and live in Bhagavan's nitya-lila derives from the fact that Bhagavan reaches out to such a soul through the guru parmpara, through which the svarupa-sakti descends. Thus the materially conditioned soul has the dormant potential to experience rasa with Bhagava, which can be realized when it comes in touch with Bhagavan's svarupa-sakti. So it always has this potential and will realize it given the proper environment of sadhu-sanga.
Igor - May 16, 2006 3:43 pm
Article is helpfull...Thank you Nanada Tanuja Prabhu for link 
Thank you Swami for answer. 
Ups, I meant Nanda-Tanuja Prabhu... Well that's because I am nitya-baddha soul 
Swami - May 20, 2006 1:39 am
I think it would be beneficial for you to read this article by Swami B. B. Visnu of Sri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha who discusses this topic.
This article is good but confusing in parts. Keep it simple. The nitya baddha originates in the Paramatma who presides over material nature. Paramatma's overseeing of material nature constitutes his sristi-lila, in which through his glance of consciousness the jiva-sakti activates material nature. In order to deliver the jivas from maya Paramatma descends into the material world as various avataras, etc., making possible their liberation and life of devotion.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - May 20, 2006 2:14 am
So we are Paramatma's "glance" on material nature?
Swami - May 20, 2006 3:41 am
So we are Paramatma's "glance" on material nature?
Well no. It is a difficult subject. Just see, my own statement is confusing. Visnu's glance activates material nature and this glance is called Sambhu. This Sambhu is a particular manifestation of Siva that agitates material nature causing it to develop in terms of ahamkara, etc. The jivas are a later expression of the will of Visnu to become many that connect with this glance (Sambhu) and thus develop a frame of reference for being enjoyers of material nature. Sambhu enters the jiva and serves as the basic tattva underlying the egoistic world and the bodily ego of the jivas. We are not the glance of Paramatma, but we identify with it. Visnu's glance over material nature makes possible our "birth from the womb of material nature," then as jivas identifying with the enjoying ego represented in Sambhu we bring material nature to life so to speak. Complex.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - May 20, 2006 7:03 pm
Very profound! This is very interesting subject, thank you Guru Maharaja. Do you recommend any particular texts which comprehensively explain this?
Swami - May 21, 2006 1:04 am
Very profound! This is very interesting subject, thank you Guru Maharaja. Do you recommend any particular texts which comprehensively explain this?
You might find Sri Brhama-samhita helpful. There are several editions available with the commentary of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. one of them contains Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati's English translation of BVT's tika and are mistakenly attributed to BSST (Iskcon edition). Others contain more modern English renderings of BVT's commentary (Caitanya Saraswata Matha and Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti editions). BVT's commentary follows that of Sri Jiva Goswami.
Otherwise, to keep it simple 
here is a quote from Bhakti-sandarbha where Sri Jiva is discussing SB 10. 87.20.
". . . it is understood that the living being is a part only of that aspect of the Lord (Paramatma) who shelters the maginal potency known as jiva-sakti, which is but one of the Lord's potencies. The living being is not part of the Lord's intrinsic nature that consists of his svarupa-sakti." The point being that becasue the jiva originates from the Paramatma feature of the Lord it does not originate in Goloka and fall from grace at some point. I gave a comprehensive talk on this subject recently in North Carolina that should be available soon on CD.
Robertnewman - May 21, 2006 8:17 pm
Maharaja, I think a new book on the metaphysics of Gaudiya Vaisnavism would be extremely valuable and well-received, and I believe you are eminently qualified to write one. I humbly request that you consider doing so.
Zvonimir Tosic - January 21, 2008 4:50 am
The point being that becasue the jiva originates from the Paramatma feature of the Lord it does not originate in Goloka and fall from grace at some point. I gave a comprehensive talk on this subject recently in North Carolina that should be available soon on CD.
A little late I join this subject matter, sorry for that.
I have one little inquiry too.
It is said Paramatma is a partial expansion of the Supreme Person. It is responsible for inspiration, discovery, movement and creativity of all living entities. Katha Upanisad says atma and Paramatma are like two birds, sitting on a tree of the body within the same heart of the living being. Paramatma also guides the embodied soul.
In all references, as I was encountering them, Paramatma relates to soul's journey in the material world. It is soul's eternal companion. I don't know if we can successfully utilise logic in the matter of transcendence, but if we follow those references:
- that Paramatma is the partial expansion governing the material creation,
- and the conclusion that all souls originate from Paramatma
that implicates souls are "predestined" to be born in material creation. It's a very objective and lets face it, not very encouraging thought.
But yet, the inspiration coming from objective Paramatma is very individual, very unique, and it connects individual soul with the Bhagavan, the source of Paramatma. So, in that regard Paramatma is a mediator, that reflects the subjective, sweet will of the Supreme Person, and guides the soul into the specific, very individual journey's end -- very unique personal service to Bhagavan and His inner Shakti.
So from that perspective, the true origin of the soul is actually covered, undisclosed really, because the soul only appears to come from Paramatma. In a objective way, yes it comes from it, but in a subjective way, no it doesn't. It appears now, it's already been connected with Bhagavan and His inner Shakti in some way, because it is clear that every single soul has its unique personal service to Lord and his inner Shakti and personal preferences in eternal lila. It is quite logical to assume that both Bhagavan and his Shakti on one side, and the individual soul on other side, share some intricate sentiments and tastes that constitute one's individual eternal service of love and the very spiritual identity.
I didn't listen to your CD covering this subject matter dear Swami, but I hope you don't mind my inquiring observation.