Maharaja, I had a discussion with a devotee about the
intelligence. As reiterated by you many times in your
website intellect cannot understand the soul as the
soul lies beyond the intellect. In bhagvatam 2.2.35
http://vedabase.net/sb/2/2/35/en, prabhupada says that
is is possible to understand the supersoul by
intelligence as intelligence is form direction of the
supersoul. Also in 3.26.29 and 3.26.30 prabhupada
gives the functions of intelligence.
Maharaja, does the experience of the soul lie beyond
the intellectual, mental and sensual planes or the
yogis are still in the intellectual plane.
Kindly dispel these doubts about the exact meaning of
intellect being form direction of the supersoul, as we
have seen many people who are less intellectual but
more devoted towards krsna. Is the divine experience of the
soul different than understanding the presence of soul
using intelligence. Also as the soul is sat-cit-ananda
in its pure state so does the "cit" factor not appear
in the material world.
Also you have said sincerity is more important than intelligence in appproaching
Absolute truth. But isnt intellect also a result of good activities in previous life.
Is there a difference between spiritual intellect and material intellect.
This is an intertesting question. I would like to see others explore the answer before I comment. Sasta-yukti required.
Dear Viveka,
I am sorry if this is taken the wrong way, maybe it's because both you and I are E.S.L., but although I can grasp the general sense of the questions, I can make out but one of them.
I can also tell all questions are about the difference between experiencing the soul and understanding the tattva of the soul intellectually, but can you please reword them?
What does form direction mean?
Thanks,
Symasundara dasa
In Srila Prabhupada's purport to SB 2.2.35, he is explaining that by the use of intelligence a person can understand that he/she is fully dependent on the Lord.
Prabhupada goes through what I would call an "exercise in introspection" to see that we are different from matter, ie. spirit. My Guru Maharaja also sometimes walks his audience through this exercise in lectures. We can see that behind everything that we experience, the experiencer is always active. That experiencer is the soul.
Here is how Srila Prabhupada states it in his purport:
"The procedure is as follows. One can perceive one's self-identification and feel positively that he exists. He may not feel it very abruptly, but by using a little intelligence, he can feel that he is not the body. He can feel that the hand, the leg, the head, the hair and the limbs are all his bodily parts and parcels, but as such the hand, the leg, the head, etc., cannot be identified with his self. Therefore just by using intelligence he can distinguish and separate his self from other things that he sees. So the natural conclusion is that the living being, either man or beast, is the seer, and he sees besides himself all other things. So there is a difference between the seer and the seen."
Srila Prabhupada then points out that despite the fact that the soul is superior to matter, it is obvious that we are conditioned by the material energy.
I think that most practitioners of jnana or sankyha yoga would cultivate this understanding. However, our Gaudiya tradition takes this exercise a step further by recognizing that the material energy is ultimately controlled by the Lord, being his maya-sakti. Therefore our abilty to perceive anything, material or spiritual, is sanctioned by the Lord. Indeed, everything is the sakti of Krsna.
It is true that we cannot see or experience the Lord with the intelligence, however we can understand our complete dependence on him. My Guru Maharaja explained to me that one of the fundamental aspects of the soul is dependence upon the Lord. Acknowledgement of our dependence is a limb of saranagati (goptrtve varana), but ultimately the Lord decides who he wants to reveal himself to.
This is quite a large topic actually, and I don't have much knowledge of the sastra (or much time). I will have to stop here.
Dear Viveka,
I am sorry if this is taken the wrong way, maybe it's because both you and I are E.S.L., but although I can grasp the general sense of the questions, I can make out but one of them.
I can also tell all questions are about the difference between experiencing the soul and understanding the tattva of the soul intellectually, but can you please reword them?
What does form direction mean?
Thanks,
Symasundara dasa
Symasundara prabhu, Intelligence is form direction of the supersoul, this is stated in the purport of the verse I am referring to. My basic point is that if intelligence is guidance from supersoul then can we experience the soul through intellect. Also are we jiva expansions of paramatma(ksirodaksaya visnu) or mahavisnu
Vivek
In the purport to SB 2.2.35, I think that Srila Prabhupada is saying that one can understand the Supersoul by a process that begins with intelligence; however, this process cannot be completed with intelligence alone. First, one can understand that one is not the body but rather the spirit soul by the directives of the Supersoul. However, this understanding is still theoretical. One must then apply oneself according to this theoretical understanding in order to realize this knowledge, or in Srila Prabhupada’s words, come to “proved experimental knowledge.” The process of actualizing this theoretical understanding is clarified in the Bhagavad-gita:
“Disciplining oneself by purified intelligence, controlling the mind with determination, abandoning the sense objects such as sound, freeing oneself from likes and dislikes, resorting to a secluded place, eating little, controlling one’s speech, body, and mind, constantly devoting oneself to the yoga of contemplation, detached, forsaking egotism, force, arrogance, lust, anger, and possessions, unselfish, and peaceful, one is fit for Brahman realization.” (Bg. 18.51-53)
Furthermore, liberation (understanding the soul) cannot be realized without at least some bhakti because liberation resides at the feet of bhakti:
One does not attain liberation without rendering devotional service. Liberation is attained only by devotional service. (Madhya 24.140)
“My dear Lord, devotional service unto You is the only auspicious path. If one gives it up simply for speculative knowledge or the understanding that these living beings are spirit souls and the material world is false, he undergoes a great deal of trouble. He only gains troublesome and inauspicious activities. His actions are like beating a husk that is already devoid of rice. His labor becomes fruitless.” (SB 10.14.4)
“O lotus-eyed one, those who think they are liberated in this life but are without devotional service to You are of impure intelligence. Although they accept severe austerities and penances and rise to the spiritual position, to impersonal Brahman realization, they fall down again because they neglect to worship Your lotus feet.” (SB 10.2.32)
By the process of jnana mixed with bhakti, one can realize up to sat-cit-ananda; however, to attain Vraja-bhakti and the condensation of sat-cit-ananda in the form of sandini, samvit, and hladhini, the suddha-sattva must descend into the heart. A distortion of sat-cit-ananda is found in the material world in the form of artha (power, wealth, security), dharma (virtue, righteousness, knowledge), and kama (pleasure).
There is a lot more to say, but unfortunately I’ve run out of time for now.
Furthermore, liberation (understanding the soul) cannot be realized without at least some bhakti because liberation resides at the feet of bhakti.
Well said! Sanatana Goswami puts it this way:
jayati jayati krsna-prema-bhaktir yad-anghrim
nikhila-nigama-tattvam güdham äjnäya muktih
bhajati sarana-kämä vaisnavais tyajyamänä
japa-yajana-tapasyä-nyäsa-nisthäm vihäya
"All glories, all glories to Sri Krsna-prema-bhakti! Knowing that the feet of Prema-bhakti secretly comprise all the truths of the Vedas, Liberation herself has come to worship her. Indeed, Liberation, abandoned by the Vaisnavas, has now given up her dependence on mantras, penance, sacrifice, and renunciation and is eager to have the shelter of Prema-bhakti."
The idea here is that mukti (self realization) after seriously studying the scripture has taken shelter of the feet of bhakti to get the association of the Vaisnavas who are uninterested in her independent of bhakti. People study scripture to get mukti, but she whom they seek has also studied and studied well to reach her conclusion. You will not get her (mukti) unless you engage is at least some bhakti, becasue she resides at the feet of bhakti. By saying that she resides at bhakti's feet Sanatana Goswami implies that one must at least touch the tip of the feet of bhakti to be successful in attaining mukti. No bhakti, no mukti. Muktidevi is not to be found in austerity, renunciation, etc. If you look for here there you will not find her.
Maharaja, I had a discussion with a devotee about the
intelligence. As reiterated by you many times in your
website intellect cannot understand the soul as the
soul lies beyond the intellect. In bhagvatam 2.2.35
prabhupada says that
is is possible to understand the supersoul by
intelligence as intelligence is form direction of the
supersoul. Also in 3.26.29 and 3.26.30 prabhupada
gives the functions of intelligence.
In these three sections Prabhupada is not saying that intelligence alone is sufficient for self realization. As Gauravani pointed out, he is merely speaking of using intelligence to reach the theoretical conclusion that consciousness is superior to matter and that we are consciousness. This is good use of intelligence. The section in which Prabhupada uses the term "form direction" is not the most clear. This is where an substantive editor should have expressed to Srila Prabhupada that his words might be taken in the wrong way, in a way that is inconsistent with all that he has written on the subject elesewhere and with what the scripture is clear on. This would have given him the opportunity to rephrase his words for the sake of clarity. Becasue I have learned the siddhanta from him, I can say this. Again, a thurough reading of his books under good guidance makes it abundantly clear that self realization cannot be arrived at by mere intellectual exercise. Intelligence, however, like the senses and mind can and should be applied in spiritual pursuit. It is one thing to be abused by one's intelligence and another to use it for spiritual purposes. Kevala-yukti is to be discarded, whereas sastra-yukti is required.
Maharaja, does the experience of the soul lie beyondthe intellectual, mental and sensual planes or the
yogis are still in the intellectual plane.
Even yogis and jnanis are clear that self realization is not achieved by intelligence alone. Pratyaksa and paroksa are the two planes of knowledge that involve intellectual exercise. It is apraoksa, however, that leads to self realization. The first two involve gathering information with the senses/intellect directly and from the words of others. They are out going so to speak. The aparaoksa plane of knowledge is self realization, and this is attained by turning within in meditation and spiritual practice, which is quite different than intellectualizing about something. Above this is the plane of adhoksaja, knowledge/realization of Bhagavan/Vaikuntha, and above this is the aprakrta plane of knowledge/realization wherein the Vraja-lila is experienced. Interestingly, the higher one goes the less intelligence is a factor in attainling knowledge. With regard to spiritual realization, it is more of a factor in jnana and yoga and less so in vaidhi bhakti or calculative devotion. Whereas in raga bhakti is it conscpicuous by its absence, jnana sunya bhakti. Love after all is ignorance.
Kindly dispel these doubts about the exact meaning ofintellect being form direction of the supersoul, as we
have seen many people who are less intellectual but
more devoted towards krsna.
Think of it like this: The most intelligent person cannot on the strength of his or her intelligence alone attain even mukti, not to speak of prema. Whereas the least intelligent person can attain prema by the grace of bhakti-devi. This is one of the lessons to be learned from the Vraja-lila of the Gokula taruni.
When measuring intelligence one must consider not only quantity but also qaulity. One maybe quantitatively more intelligent than another, yet qualitatively less intelligent. A large intellect that is in the mode of passion is not as useful as a smaller intelligence in the mode of goodness.
Is the divine experience of thesoul different than understanding the presence of soul
using intelligence.
Yes, of course. There is a gulf of difference between theoretical and practical knowledge.
Also as the soul is sat-cit-anandain its pure state so does the "cit" factor not appear
in the material world.
Its knowing (cit) is distorted, as are its existence (sat) and pleasure (ananda).
Also you have said sincerity is more important than intelligence in appproachingAbsolute truth. But isnt intellect also a result of good activities in previous life.
Is there a difference between spiritual intellect and material intellect.
Yes, it is. So if one is sincere in one's previous life one gets better senses and intellect in the next, and if one is completely sincere, one attains a spiritual body with spiritual intellect, the function of which is not to question whether or not to serve but how to seve best in any given circumstance. Consider the Damodara-lila and Yasodamayi's dilemma—to breast feed or to attend the milk on the stove was the question—to serve Krsna directly of to render tadiya-seva.