Having doubts.

Philip Breakenridge - July 29, 2006 11:28 pm

I opened up a Pandora's box today on myspace.com and am now living to regret it. This morning, I was surfing the site and stumbled upon a devotee's blog questioning devotees who choose to support liberal political candidates. In his blog, he condemned liberals for supporting gay marriage, abortion, sex education in schools, etc. He accused left leaning devotees of throwing their lot in with "homosexuals and abortionists." Well, I replied to his blog and asked him to adjust his unloving attitude by perhaps reaching out to gay couples and getting their take on things. I also told him that, as a gay-bodied person, I didn't appreciate being lumped in with abortionists. I also sent out a bulletin to all the devotees on my "Friends" list asking them to reply to his post and help him see things in more compassionate light, thereby fighting homophobia in the movement.


Two very sweet devotees were very supportive of me, but a few were quite hostile toward me. It's in bad taste to repeat what they said to me, but the essence was that there was no place for me in Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Two of them were downright rude and threatening, but at least the devotee who made the original post had the decency to explain his position to me. He accused gay devotees of minimizing Prabhupada's authority to promote a sexual identity. He doesn't believe that one can be openly gay and be a devotee too. Like all homophobic devotees, he also parroted negative statements Prabhupada made about homosexuality. It seems that these types of devotees refuse to see anything Prabhupada said in an appropriate cultural context.


Over the years I've experienced so much anti-gay sentiment from people who worship a sweet, gentle, effeminate God who wears make-up and paints his toenails. I just don't get it.


Today I realized that I'm not quite sure if this path is for me. This birth has been a difficult one for me, and I don't know if I can handle the added drama of dealing with such small mindedness and vitriol from people who are supposed to be supporting me on the path. I just don't know if I have any fight left in me. I refuse to back down and dismiss my sexual orientation as a frailty or liability.


I feel very lost right now. :D


Vinode Vani Dasa - July 30, 2006 12:14 am

Hi Phillip,


I wish I had more time to write a longer reply, but I wanted to respond right away to your post, which made me very sad. I am a heterosexual male, but as a classical musician I have many gay friends--my wife and I recently played for a commitment ceremony for two of our friends, Tim and Jim, who have been together for twelve years. I look up to Tim and Jim as an example of what a real, loving relationship is; I feel like I have learned a lot from them and other commited couples like them. There are some people in this world who will not judge you for your sexual orientation; they will try to see the good in everything and everybody. I think that on this website you have found people like that. I think that in your heart you know that you are a devotee--the doubts you have are not about Krishna, but about the people who claim to be devotees of Krishna and then turn around and fail to see Krishna in the hearts of others. Please don't allow the ignorant comments of others to discourage you from devoting yourself to this beautiful, loving path.

Swami - July 30, 2006 1:04 am
Over the years I've experienced so much anti-gay sentiment from people who worship a sweet, gentle, effeminate God who wears make-up and paints his toenails. I just don't get it.


I would not characterize Krsna as being effeminite—balanced yes—but otherwise, it is they who "just don't get it," not you, at least on this issue.


If there is one good example, it outweighs innumerable bad examples. We need only one show us what to do, while there will always be many who are willing and capable of showing us what not to do.

Tadiya Dasi - July 31, 2006 11:31 am



I'm sorry that you had such a negative experience with some of the devotees. There's no excuse for being hard-hearted and unkind towards others...this being true even more in our dealings with Krishna's devotees, who deserve our service & honor regardless of any differences etc. We all have our "baggage", our karma, and I'm sure that each one of us has had doubts about being in the spiritual path one time or another. Spiritual life is not easy. But is it worth it? Worth every hardship, every obstacle etc.? Certainly. In time you will look back and laugh at the obstacles you are now facing because you will see them for what they are, insignificant in the big picture. Prabhupada wrote this in response to Satsvarupa dasa Goswami when he complained that "his pathway has become filled with stumbling blocks":


"You mentioned that your pathway has become filled with stumbling blocks, but there are no stumbling blocks. I can kick out all those stumbling blocks immediately, provided you accept my guidance. With one stroke of my kick I can kick out all stumbling blocks."


--Letter by Srila Prabhupada, December 9, 1972


If you think deeply, what choice do you have in this situation? Forget Krishna and his devotees? Forget about the golden opportunity that Mahaprabhu so kindly offers to us? If you think about this --and meditate on the most merciful personality of Caitanya Mahaprabhu--I think the choice to continue on the path becomes obvious :lol:. Who is there to turn to look for shelter if not Sri Guru, Harinam and Gaura-Nityananda? The material world is filled with hateful people...is your situation really going to be any different there? Do you think there is any less anti-gay sentiments among "wordly" people? Guru Maharaj writes in his Siksastakam commentary about how, as we progress on the path, we begin to realize that our surroundings are actually friendly, not threatening as we had thought. We realize that we are surrounded by well-wishers. So, there's your hope, Philip. Fix your eyes on that goal and engage yourself in nama-sankirtan and see what happens ;):D


I don't mean to minimize your pain in any way. It hurts when one is not accepted. I get that. But all of us have our difficulties...I could say that it's not worth being on the path because of the anti-women sentiments of some devotees. But that would be an excuse. And besides, you are in Guru Maharaja's group now. I haven't been a member for that long, but I can assure you that our group is pretty liberal & loving towards all kinds of people. There's a place for you in Krishna's service. And in Mahaprabhu's religion of love. Of that you can be sure. Make that conviction your rock --and don't give up! Ever :D


Your sexuality (or more precisely, the homophobia among devotees) may seem like a huge stumbling block on your pathway now --but that's just an illusion. There's no stumbling block that could be too heavy for Nityananda Prabhu to lift away. Take shelter of Sri Guru and pray for his/her mercy & guidance. Don't let this get in the way of your bhakti. Obstacles may be there, but don't get distracted by them.


I wish you all the best! And welcome to Tattva-viveka, nice to have you here :D

Shyam Gopal Das - July 31, 2006 3:05 pm

I looked up the devotee's profile on myspace and this image hosted there says it all:



Philip Breakenridge - July 31, 2006 10:02 pm

Tripurari Maharaj and sweet devotees,


I wanted to thank you all for your words of encouragement. They have meant a lot to me. In reality, for every devotee who lashed out at me this weekend, there were several who came to my defense. It was a challenge for me to see that in the heat of the situation.


The last few days have been very difficult for me. I haven't woken up my dieties or chanted my rounds, and I've participated in some self-destructive behaviour. To be honest, I've thought about packing up all of my devotional items and taking a very long break from spiritual life. If this experience was a test, I guess that I failed, but I've still learned much from it.


I've come to realize that these unloving devotees will always have Prabhupada's words as amunition to use against me. I feel betrayed by this. It hurts that Prabhupada viewed homosexuality as "unnatural" and that he agreed with a Jehovah's Witness (JWs are religious fundamentalists who believe that God is going to destroy everyone except for them) who condemned gay marriage. I understand that Prabhupada was in the body of an older Indian man who was born into a patriarchal, homophobic culture. Up until now, this has helped me to overlook his negative statements. Just as I don't believe that women are unintelligent, untrustworthy gossip mongers who are easily led into adultery, I don't believe that homosexuals are lusty demons, unworthy of experiencing the protection of a loving relationship. Where does this leave me? Am I not allowed to disagree with Prabhupada's views on social issues?


When I look at photos of Prabhupada, I see so much kindness and mercy in his eyes, but these devotees would have me believe that he won't accept me unless I renounce my sexual orientation. I realize that my sexuality is a bodily identification, but I don't know of any heterosexual devotees who've renounced their heterosexuality, even if they've chosen to be celibate. It frightens me that some devotees cling to Prabhupada's words as if he were some kind of Christ figure, an infallible saviour. This kind of behaviour seems very cult-like to me. I believe that devotees should rely on their intellect and compassion when examining some of the more controversial statements he made. If Prabhupada had lived another twenty years, might he have adjusted some of his views, given recent discoveries in the scientific and psychological communities regarding sexual orientation? Unfortunately, we will never know the answer to this. When he disappeared, homosexuality was still listed as a mental disorder in medical journals.


If it weren't for Prabhupada, I'd venture to guess that most of us Westerners wouldn't even know who Krishna was, and I'm eternally grateful that he had the courage to leave his family and home to teach us about Him. I love reading his books and listening to him chant and sing bhajans. That being said, how do I overcome these feelings I have? Right now, I have my Prabhuapada murti covered with a cloth. I can't bear to look at him, thinking that he's condemning me for being open about who I am in this birth.


Anyway, a life without Krishna in it seems much too bleak a prospect for me right now. I will pick up my spiritual practice the best I can and continue to learn, hoping that I can make it over this hurdle. I really appreciate all the supportive replys to my post. They have helped to save my spiritual life. Thank you.


p. :lol:

Madangopal - August 1, 2006 12:08 am

Where does this leave me? Am I not allowed to disagree with Prabhupada's views on social issues?


When I look at photos of Prabhupada, I see so much kindness and mercy in his eyes, but these devotees would have me believe that he won't accept me unless I renounce my sexual orientation.


Please understand that the kindness and mercy that you see in Prabhupada's eyes are indeed genuine spiritual feelings of compassion for all jiva's. Condemnation of sexual orientation or any other bodily designation (see the women are less intelligent thread) are not what Prabhupada was focused on at all. During his 12 years of preaching in the west he spoke very little about any of this, sexual orientation, race, class, gender, etc. He gave a very few comments on these things which may 30 years + later make us go :lol: . If anybody focuses on these sparse comments and tries to pressure and manipulate people's faith based on it, they do the greatest disservice to him. It is simply put, NOT what he was about. It cannot be missed by a slight reading of his teachings where his heart was at. There is a great fault in the Vedabase or the technology of searching everything he said. Why? Because you can focus on one word without having to go through the volumes of spiritual teachings to find it. If people did that, they would not be bewildered. The devil can easily cite scripture or Prabhupada these days.

Prabhupada was not about the body, he saw the jiva. He taught how the jiva will experience eternal spiritual union and happiness. That was his message. To preach otherwise is like saying he believed in non-violence and Gandhism just because he identified with that movement for a time in college. Obviously such people are missing where Prabhupada's heart is at. Don't make the mistake of letting them fool you by their bad logic. Stand up and defy it for it paints Prabhupada as a materialist - as they are. Love Prabhupada as that personification of mercy that he was, that is how he is looking at you or anyone else of whatever sexual orientation, gender, race or SPECIES! Worship him on that basis, not with his views of sexual orientation on your mind.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 1, 2006 12:08 am

First of all I should say that I am not a homophobe. I have a lot of gay friends and have no issues with what they are doing in their beds. Actually, I should rephrase that, I don’t think it’s my business to know what they are doing at the privacy of their bedrooms. There is one issue though. I don’t introduce myself “Hi, I’m a devotee and I’m a heterosexual male”, so I don’t understand what the need in advertising your sexual orientation is. I think it’s a private thing and should be kept to yourself. The better way to say is “Hi, I’m a devotee and my service is such and such”. Am I completely off?


One more thing, I don’t think covering your param-guru with a cloth will help. In the matter of fact I think its offensive. He is not a canary.


Please correct me if I'm wrong. Please?

Madangopal - August 1, 2006 12:21 am

The better way to say is “Hi, I’m a devotee and my service is such and such”. Am I completely off?

I could only say Nanda Tanujaji that white, male, heterosexuals will always find it easier to take the route you have suggested because they will not experience any discrimination. It is called privilege. White, male, heterosexuals enjoy a privilege in walking smoothly through society with no problem. And then we tend to think, "hey, I'm open minded, I can relate to where you (the discriminated ones) are coming from, but why do you have to be so upfront about your views." The fact is because it is a fight for survival. Society is always against minorities. Usually the minorities are picked out because of their difference, not because they are advertising... Unfortunately you would think this would be a non-issue in a spiritual society, but the level of discrimination is really a meter of how spiritual the society is.

Philip Breakenridge - August 1, 2006 2:36 am

Hare Krishna Nanda-tanuja dasa,


Thanks for your reply. I didn't realize that I was "advertising" my sexual orientation. I was simply sharing a bad experience I had due to the prejudices of others. I'm glad to hear that you do not share these prejudices.


You may not introduce yourself as a heterosexual male, but you do, no doubt, discuss your partner and children. So, you do make your sexual orientation known and I don't think that there is anything wrong with that. I would never ask you to keep that to yourself. Our sexual orientations involve much more than what we do in the privacy of our bedrooms. They are part of our births, which shape the way we look at the world and experience life.


I didn't mean to give the impression that I had covered Prabhupada with a cloth that way one would a canary. I have him in a seperate altar and used the cloth as a curtain of sorts, as they would at the temple. Please be patient with me as I go through this difficult time in my spiritual journey.


Thank you,


p. :D


Thank you for your kind and discerning words, madangopal. I will try to keep them close to my heart as I continue on my path. :lol:

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 1, 2006 2:36 am

Sometimes white, male, heterosexuals can also be Jews (such me), that’s why my family fled Russia. I was experiencing plenty of discrimination, trust me, so, yes, I can understand what fight for survival is. And I also know how to survive. That’s why I’m alive. Sometimes to survive you have to take Magen Dovid of your clothes instead of proudly parading it as a symbol of your nation.


Philip, please don’t take my posts as a personal attack. You ask for an opinion, so I’m just giving mine, that’s all. You have my full support in your journey.

Philip Breakenridge - August 1, 2006 2:41 am

I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences, Nanda-tanuja dasa. I'm glad you were able to flee to a more tolerant country.

Vamsidhari Dasa - August 1, 2006 4:58 am

I would like to add to this thread by empathizing with Phillip's experience. The process of self acceptence is difficult one and it is complicated by many aspects of our experiences. My first reaction is to tell you to get away from those people who feed you these ideas and your life will be better. They will not accept you and only use Prabuphada's words to further their prejudice. Our spiritual path is beyond sexual orientation (most of us, unfortunatelly, are not). You came to the right place because GM recognizes and rewards one's sincerity to serve so that you might be able to leave the trauma of your past experiences in the past and feel more accepted for who you are. If you keep looking for acceptance in those who are incapable you might not be able to overcome the pain.

Now, I dont know how to use the quatation things but I wanted to respond to Nanda-tanuja's response. Madangopal already mention some of what I have to say so forgive me for repeating. It is very important to udestand that because we live in a heterocentric and heterosexist society one who is within this particular group does not have to identify oneself to become visible. If you are gay or lesbian you have to idientify yourself as such in order to exist and in order to have rights and priviledges of the rest of the society. One's sexual orientation is not a matter of who one sleeps with but is a question of identity or who one is. It is not private and it does not have to be kept hidden, on the contrary. I am not going to comment of "bodily identification" expression because it is used so often to justify prejudice that it has lost its intended meanning. I also think that we are all to some extent homophobic because we are brought up in a homophobic society. The first step to becoming more tollerant is to recognize this. Just because one is a member of a minority group does not immunize one from having prejudice. I met many gay people who are more homopbohic then George Bush it just takes different forms. You cannot put a disclaimer before you make a homophobic statement in order to soften its blow. I hope you can take my reaction as e friendly poinitng out to something you might not have been aware of.

Respecfully submitted.

Vamsidhari d. :lol:

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 1, 2006 5:08 am
It is very important to udestand that because we live in a heterocentric and heterosexist society one who is within this particular group does not have to identify oneself to become visible. If you are gay or lesbian you have to idientify yourself as such in order to exist and in order to have rights and priviledges of the rest of the society.

Thank you for your reply, Vamsi. Could you please elaborate on this statement? I’m not sure I understand.

Vamsidhari Dasa - August 1, 2006 5:36 am

Thank you for your reply, Vamsi. Could you please elaborate on this statement? I’m not sure I understand.


WOW I managed this quotatiod device!!!!!!!!!


All I can say to elaborate is: WE ARE HERE WE ARE QUEER, GET USED TO IT!


But on a serious note because being gay is not so visible and obvious one has to state it in order to make it known (i.e. come out). Otherwise most people will assume that one is of heterosexual orientation (heterocentric = assuming that everyone is heterosexual).

Because hateret of homosexual people is deeply ingrained in the judeo-cristian tradition we assume that to be heterosexual is inherently better, morally superior, and psychologically better adjusted then the homosexuals (heterosexisam). In order to counteract this one has to come out and demamd to be treated non differently on the bases of one's sexual orientation. Gay people cannot marry and do not have the same rights as heterosexual people under the law. So we have to stand up and fight for our right to wear designer clother, okhaaaay?


Vamsi :lol:

Shyam Gopal Das - August 1, 2006 3:22 pm

As Vamsi said, get away from those people who crush your faith. Seek good company and you will thrive, because a flower won't blossom in quicksand.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 1, 2006 4:40 pm


I love ya!

... in a platonic kinda way


Bhrigu - August 1, 2006 6:11 pm

Dear Philip,


one more point to consider regarding Srila Prabhupada and homosexuality: it appears from his statements on this topic that he understood the term differently from how it is used today. As you can see from his comments on the passage on Brahma creating the demons in the 2nd canto (?) of the Bhagavatam and some other places ("they will have sex with men, women, animals"), he understands homosexuality to be a kind of violent sexual deviation, where such people will use sex to subjugate others. Something like forced homosexuality in prisons or other closed societies. Mutually consentual homosexuality is of course something completely different. He is in other words (at least in many cases) referring to something else when he uses the word "homosexual".


There are many stories about Srila Prabhupada showing that he was able to accomodate what we today call homosexual persons, showing great love for them as well. So please take away the covering from his picture! :lol:





Krsangi Dasi - August 2, 2006 9:23 am

Even though I consider myself quite priviledged being a white Scandinavian heterosexual I think that some of the points that Vamsi made also apply to feminism. Our societies are built for the heterosexual white male, and even claiming your rights as a heterosexual white woman means that you'll be considered a disturbance, a difficult and self-centered person.


In the ancient Greek democracy that's considered to be the ground of our modern society everyone was allowed to vote. But actually "everyone" just meant the free men, not the women or slaves. I think our "democracy" still carries some baggage from that time and our "everybody" doesn't really always include women, gay people, disabled people, immigrants etc.


Personally I've noticed that the solution that works best for me is staying as far away from chauvinists as possible. I for example never go to websites that I know will only upset me, instead I try to strengthen my own practise by looking for positive inspiration and influence elsewhere. I guess someone might say I'm just afraid of conflicts, but why waste time on reading some bigot's writings on the net? It's better to do your own thing and show your abilities through it. If someone says that gay people can't be devotees of Krishna, you can prove them wrong by being one. :lol:

Syamasundara - August 3, 2006 4:14 am

Dear Philip,


First of all, welcome to the group. Second, you may be just *gay* now, but soon you'll become *glad* you joined this group; if you cultivate your spiritual practice and deity worship, you'll become *euphoric* very often, and finally, when you reach perfection you will be *happy* and *extatic*.

So, yes, as those people say, there cannot be such a thing as a *gay* devotee. A Vaisnava is nothing less than happy.

Third, why do you care so much about what those people in particular say? I read your profile and saw that it's not that you live in an ashram or are dealing regularly with any of those devotees. Somehow your reaction made me day-dream of me at Audarya blowing my nose in a kleenex, putting the kleenex in my pocket, and thinking: "Oh, a hindu in India would think so little of me, carrying mucus on me."

Who cares?

By this I am not making little of your pain and situation, even if I must say I never had a doubt about Krsna, not even remotely. Of course I don't mean philosophical doubts, but doubts that made me think that maybe this path is not for me. So, in one sense, I can empathize only in theory. Do you want to laugh? When I understood what Iskcon's and Prabhupada's position was about homosexuality, I thought: "OK I'll just get married then; for what they seem to consider women anyway, even when they are married to them..."

As far as Krsna's femininity, Govinda is the adi-purusa, there can't be anyone more masculine than him. At the same time, it's good to point out how culture can influence and filter things. I would replace painted toenails with earrings (who said Krsna has painted toenails?), but yes, you are right. Like I said, I accepted Krsna in toto (I wish), whatever he looked like, did or said was right and true, and I was so surprised when once I showed the deities to some guests at Sri Sri Radharamana temple in Milan, and they thought they looked weird and couldn't tell who was who, because they both wore earrings and flowers, had long hair...

From an external and unfamiliar point of view it would be very easy to see homosexuality in figures like Gadadhara Pandita or Subala sakha.


Guidance is really essential in this path, and you have found it. Now you just have to focus more on your happiness, and your gayness will also find its place.

Vamsidhari Dasa - August 3, 2006 3:55 pm

That is very well said Syamasundara.

I am worndering does gayness come from happiness or does happiness come from gayness? ;)

Sometimes the way in which one lives one's gayness can be a source of so much unhappiness. There cannot be universal acceptance of gay people just because we live in this world. To seek it would be so futile.The effort to accept those who dont accept you is damaging for self acceptance. But once one has accepted the unacceptable fact that there will always be those who wont accept, one can move towards some more integrated way of self-acceptance in the company of those who are accepting.

I really apreciate this thread because it allowed me to express so much happiness about gayness. It also allowed me to ADVERTISE it freely and for that I am really grateful.


Vamsidhari d. :ph34r:

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 3, 2006 4:45 pm
It also allowed me to ADVERTISE it freely and for that I am really grateful.

Hey, no throwing stones! ;)

Bhrigu - August 3, 2006 5:45 pm
From an external and unfamiliar point of view it would be very easy to see homosexuality in figures like Gadadhara Pandita or Subala sakha.


Seriously, I wonder when we will see the first essay on "Homosexuals in Gaudiya Vaishnava History". There would be material aplenty: for example, in the DDT commentary to Haribhaktivilasa 1.4, Sanatana Goswami comments on "Krishnadasa and Lokanatha" to mean "Krishnadasa who lived (vartate) with Lokanatha -- this indicates their special love for each other (anyonyam priti-visesah)". I guess you could make a lot of that.


But no, I won't write that essay! ;)

Madangopal - August 3, 2006 6:59 pm

Is there really material aplenty? While I can relate to the social struggles of homosexual devotees in the modern era, I can't imagine that there is any evidence in the history of Gaudiyaism, certainly the lives of acaryas, which would indicate any sexual relations between members of the same sex. Doesn't the example you cite of Krsnadasa and Lokanath simply suggest an affectionate relationship? Or are you suggesting that someone with an agenda to promote homosexuality would use such examples in writing an article?

Bhrigu - August 4, 2006 6:08 am

I would say that it suggests an affectionate relationship. In India, it is common for male friends (and perhaps women as well, but I don't know about that) to be much more affectionate towards each other than what at least Finns are. Walking hand-in-hand is quite common, for example, something that at least here in Finland would be seen as very queer indeed.


On the other hand, if we accept homosexuality today, why wouldn't we accept it in history? Of course, renunciants homosexuals would not have an active sexual life, any more than heterosexuals, but it would be strange if they didn't exist in previous times as well.

Syamasundara - August 4, 2006 6:34 am

I'm sure many of Mahaprabhu's associates were very gentle and almost feminine in nature, most of them were gopis and mañjaris, but homosexuality is another thing.

It is true that the highest expression of prema is found between Krsna and the gopis, who happen to be of opposite sexes, but we need to keep in mind what prema is.

We are talking of the highest, most intense and intoxicating love, free of all the social, moral and cultural ties our minds can apply to it.

Think of the gopas fainting if they don't see Krsna for one second, where can you find such expression of friendship among males in this world? Does that mean they are homosexual? Think of the love between the cows and Krsna, is it bestiality? Think of the ecstatic symptoms of the earth when touched by Krsna's feet, that's not just poetry.

Krsna is just everything for them, so much so that they don't even perceive themselves anymore.

How can homosexuality fit in there?

The parsadas of the Lord, or even any other sadhaka who came after, had conquered their lust anyway, so what difference does it make what their sexual orientation was?

Otherwise I believe that in past times, homosexuals with a spiritual inclination would become celibate pujaris.

Our society is a little more complex. For some reason in the third world countries, so to speak, homosexuality is mostly plain transgenderism: individuals with female minds in male bodies, who behave like women, and as soon as they can, will get operated. In India there is a sort of cast, forgot their name. In a relaxed civilization that accepts reincarnation that would just be seen technically as a coming together of gunas and karma. Actually they were even seen in a mystical way, as beings where both the feminine and masculine exist, they were supposed to be auspicious and invited to all ceremonies. When Nimai was born he received the blessings of these transvestites. I don't know how sexually active they were, though. Maybe they were feeling like women or even identifying with the gopis (like sometimes you see some Rama bhaktas disguised like monkeys), maybe not scriptural geniuses, but sincerely favorable toward Krsna and constantly absorbed in him, with no interest in other men.

Whatever the case, homosexuality is merely one the many, many aspects of one factor that Srila Sridhara Maharaja simply and genially calls separate interest.

We shouldn't forget that Krsna means all-attractive, so for him to be so, supposing he is the positive pole, everything else must be negative. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta talks of predominating and predominated moiety in his commentary of Brahma Samhita. That's why it is said that all jivas are feminine, but it would be really ridiculous to make a sexist point out of this.

Madangopal - August 4, 2006 8:26 am

On the other hand, if we accept homosexuality today, why wouldn't we accept it in history?

I'm with you, where you were going on this point but just needed clarification about the sexuality part of homosexuality in our tradition. I was just thinking in the concrete form of the word, homosexuality, and having a hard time imagining that there would be historical evidence of that practice coming out of a culture that is very conservative about sexuality and our tradition in particular with its emphasis on renunciation.

I think most Western cultures could benefit from a little more affectionate dealings between members of the same sex. Being self conscious of one's masculinity and having to prove it seems to manifest in hurting something or someone...

I'm all for spiritual priti amongst the same or opposite sex. Hugs to you all! ;)