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Rocanas challenge

Bhrigu - September 8, 2006 11:37 am

In a recent posting on Sampradaya Sun, Rocana writes (http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/talks/talks3.htm):

So there you have it. Srila Prabhupada categorically states in 1976 that his Godbrothers were envious of him due to being in the bodily conception, in which they saw him as a grhasta. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, on the other hand, recognized him as being greater than many yogis. So the Godbrothers were actually disobeying Srila Bhaktisiddhanta by failing to recognize Srila Prabhupada in the same way their Spiritual Master did.

 

As far as I'm concerned, those Srila Prabhupada disciples who have accepted siksa initiation from one of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers or descendants must be prepared to explain how they reconcile the statements Srila Prabhupada is making here. I challenge my friend and Godbrother, Tripurari Swami, who became a prominent disciple of Sridhar Maharaja, to give us his explanation on this.

Perhaps Swami or someone of us should reply to this?

Madangopal - September 8, 2006 1:41 pm

I know that this is not that profound for many of you wise souls, but I have recently come to the realization that most people are attached and very entrenched in their beliefs. To me it seems that people will only really change their belief system when the system has been upset for some reason or they are looking to learn something. Someone such as Rocana "challenging" GM in this way is a lure into wasted time. I think the only thing that comes from these endeavors is that sometimes people on the sidelines become influenced. Certainly Rocana won't. I mean how easy is it to counter what he's saying? He says in 1976 Prabhupada says ______. He's using a time structured argument. Just reply that in 1977 Prabhupada said the war with the Gaudiya Matha was over, or that GM personally heard Prabhupada refer his disciples to Sridhar Maharaj, or many other arguments we could give... But it is for no purpose, because people like Rocana aren't willing to budge. His vision is focused in a certain way. He believes Prabhupada appeared in a vacuum, is one of the few Sampradaya Acaryas, and he has way too much invested in his belief to be teachable. I personally don't think many people listen to him or his editorials. And the people that really do are pretty unteachable too. He just has a microphone because of his wife's tech abilities.

I'm sorry if I appear harsh or overly critical of him. I lived down the road from him for about 6 months and learned quickly what he was about. Philosophy does not go far with him. It is Prabhupada sentiment completely at the expense of siddhanta.

These new smilies are AWESOME! This is my experience with Rocana.

Babhru Das - September 8, 2006 2:11 pm

I was known as paca-grhastha. Paca-grhastha means a rotten grhastha. And now they say, "This grhastha has come out more than us? What is this?" [break] Sridhara Maharaja's chief disciple...?". . .

 

Tamala Krsna then affirms it, saying "He knew. He saw you in your activities.". Srila Prabhupada said, "Yes, he said that "Maharaja, you are seeing he is grhastha. He is more than many yogis." He used to say, that boy."

Well, I see what is probably a really big mistake in Rocan's tirade here: He seems to think that Prabhupada is referring to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati (he inserts his name later to explain "he"), but it looks to me as though he's referring to Sripad Govinda Maharaja. I'd have to read this more carefully, and listen to the conversation myself, to be sure.

He also says that everyone on the walk was a sannyasi, but Jagadish was a grihastha until some time in the early '80s.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 8, 2006 2:32 pm

Someone such as Rocana "challenging" GM in this way is a lure into wasted time. I think the only thing that comes from these endeavors is that sometimes people on the sidelines become influenced. Certainly Rocana won't.

I agree, it’s not about him or us, but about hundreds of confused devotees who are not "very entrenched" and can still be persuaded. Consider it as a preaching to them. Still a commendable cause in my mind.

Dhiralalita - September 8, 2006 3:51 pm

Ditto.

Sri krishna has a garland and thousands of intoxicated bees fly around it.

If we compare the devotees to bees like Sripad Tripurari Swami, we could say that somebody like Rocan is a wasp. At least, his mentality is wasp like and does not do good to anybody. He is ready to sting even so not provoked.

Madangopal - September 8, 2006 4:12 pm

I was known as paca-grhastha. Paca-grhastha means a rotten grhastha. And now they say, "This grhastha has come out more than us? What is this?" [break] Sridhara Maharaja's chief disciple...?". . .

 

Tamala Krsna then affirms it, saying "He knew. He saw you in your activities.". Srila Prabhupada said, "Yes, he said that "Maharaja, you are seeing he is grhastha. He is more than many yogis." He used to say, that boy."

Actually, the way this reads with the break, it makes more sense that Govinda Maharaj is speaking like this to some other "Maharaja" in defense of Prabhupada. It does not make sense for Govinda Maharaj to be talking to Sridhar M. because why would Govinda Maharaj address his own guru like this, challenging him that Sridhar Maharaj is seeing Prabhupada as only a grhastha when he is actually greater than many yogis? And coming from BSST, this is not really a chastisement of Sridhar Maharaj. You can see that Prabhupada doesn't think Sridhar Maharaj was offensive because he immediately makes the point about their friendship and SM being a chief disciple of BSST... Ultimately, Rocana has no argument here, he just wants to make one.

Rocana is also too hagiographical in his study of history to get anywhere sensible. He pulls all this prediction of the future stuff, like Prabhupada giving Jagadisa the sauce predicts Jagadisa's abadonment, or BSST glorifying Prabhupada. BSST glorified some of his other disciples in ways that blows any of this "greater than many yogis" comment away. That is not to say it was not significant, I'm just saying that what makes the man the man historically is not a comment here and there, it is the work he really did. The comment is a sweet exchange, and BSST gave others such glory also. Rocana is picking and choosing because his orientation is focused as Prabhupada being the Sampradaya Acarya. I'm sorry, I find it downright boring to see Rocana go on.

To me, again this type of editorial is totally Rocana's style. A key theme in Rocana's life is that he was in that section of devotees like Bahudak who had leadership (temple president), but were in a power struggle with the sannyasi's and later zonal acarya's. He has never gotten over it. It bleeds into his interpretation of everything he hears and comments on. It is bleeding with his frustration of being on the downside of power. Now that the obstacles are gone, what does he do with his time? He could preach, inspire people to take up Krsna bhakti - but no, he feels his time is better utilized in stopping the parampara at Prabhupada and criticizing stuff from 30 years ago.

Babhru Das - September 8, 2006 6:06 pm

I missed this because I just don't read Rocan's stuff, especially when it has a "Sampradaya Acharya" headline. My eyes spontaneously roll back in their sockets, and I find myself wondering if I don't need root canal surgery or something less painful than reading Rocan's SA nonsense. I agree that his idea is too sentimental, not that the sentiments are misdirected, but that they're ill informed.

I'm going to read his article more carefully, find the transcript of the conversation in the VedaBase, and see if I can't find the recording as well, and see how I might respond. It makes no sense to me that Swami would respond to such a stupid "challenge": it is, frankly, beneath his dignity. Rocan seems to have a burr in his rear about Srila Sridhar Maharaja and our Swami, and I don't get where it comes from, especially noting some of the stuff he has posted from followers of Narayana Maharaja and others.

Babhru Das - September 8, 2006 6:25 pm

I just looked at the transcript, and Srila Prabhupada clearly has this devotee suggesting to Srila Sridhar Maharaja that Prabhupada is more than many yogis. However, just who is saying this isn't real clear to me. Srila Prabhupada asks, "Sridhar Maharaja's chief disciple?" And Bhavananda replies, "Gaura." Was there someone else who was considered a leading disciple while Govinda Maharaja was in family life? I remember that there was some big disciple from SCSM who went off on his own with some bogus idea a few years ago. Was his name Gaurasundara or something like that?

Swami - September 8, 2006 7:03 pm

I just looked at the transcript, and Srila Prabhupada clearly has this devotee suggesting to Srila Sridhar Maharaja that Prabhupada is more than many yogis. However, just who is saying this isn't real clear to me. Srila Prabhupada asks, "Sridhar Maharaja's chief disciple?" And Bhavananda replies, "Gaura." Was there someone else who was considered a leading disciple while Govinda Maharaja was in family life? I remember that there was some big disciple from SCSM who went off on his own with some bogus idea a few years ago. Was his name Gaurasundara or something like that?

The "boy" is without a doubt Govinda Maharaja. GM told stories like this himself years later, how he used to see Prabhupada's competance when preaching with him and how he would remark about it to SM.

Poor Rocana.

Babhru Das - September 8, 2006 8:21 pm

Poor, indeed. I guess I was confused by Bhavananda's interjection. Perhaps he was confused, or fumbling. What was Govinda Maharaja's name in his other ashram? Is he the G.S. Vidyaranjan who wrote the preface of Hidden Treasure? (If so, was that Govinda Sundar?)

Babhru Das - September 8, 2006 10:26 pm

Another couple of things that bug me about his "analysis" of the conversation (and there are more): his reference to "siksa initiation" is just goofy. What the heck is that, anyway? And, when he makes his little challenge, he refers to Swami as his "friend." He did the same thing when I tried to negotiate with him about my review of the Siksastakam book. It just reminds me of the senators on C-SPAN when they refer to a fellow senator whose policies and beliefs they detest as "my good friend, the gentleman from _____." Creepy.

Babhru Das - September 19, 2006 4:38 am

Here's a response I've composed. I'm submitting it to the assembled vaishnavas with a request for any suggested improvements and a question whether it's worth getting Rocana riled up and ready to go into one of his anti-Sridhara Maharaja tirades.

Rocana's Challenge Goes Unanswered

Recently, in his interpretation of a morning-walk conversation with our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Rocana prabhu issued a challenge to our Godbrother Swami B. V. Tripurari. If he’s waiting for his challenge to be answered, let’s hope he’s not holding his breath. Now, why might Tripurari Maharaja not respond to Rocana prabhu’s challenge? The answer is quite simple: his “challenge” is based on a mistaken understanding of what Srila Prabhupada said in the conversation he interprets, or perhaps misinterprets, for us. Here’s what Rocana wrote in his article:

I’d like to comment on a couple of points that Rocana makes and show how they demonstrate his faulty understanding of what Srila Prabhupada says here. That misunderstanding, along with the tone of Rocana’s challenge, make it unnecessary for Tripurari Maharaja, or anyone else, for that matter, to respond at all.

One misunderstanding is that Srila Sridhar Maharaja, along with the rest of Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers, never recognized the magnitude of Srila Prabhupada’s service. He interprets Srila Prabhupada’s comment, “And now they say, ‘This grhastha has come out more than us? What is this?’” to mean that they simply cannot accept that his preaching exceeded anything they could have done.

In fact, they were simply expressing their amazement, even pride, that someone from among their ranks, and not one of the more publicly recognized among them, at that, could do something so wonderful. Here’s how Srila Sridhar Maharaja put it in 1973: “So, our Swami Maharaja has done a miracle! (Laughingly) He has done a miracle. What Bhaktivinoda conceived and [srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati] Prabhupada tried according to his conception to translate into action we find that through Swami Maharaja in his last days these revelations have been fulfilled. We are happy, we are glad, we are proud of Swami Maharaja, and of you all too.” In fact, when some of their Godbrothers objected to our calling our spiritual master Prabhupada (which title they were accustomed to using for their own spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada), it was Srila Sridhar Maharaja who explained to them that it was perfectly proper for us to do so. And it was in fact Srila Sridhar Maharaja who asserted that our Srila Prabhupada is a saktyavesha-avatar:

As for Srila Sridhara Maharaja’s descendents, to whom Rocana refers, his chief disciple, Sripad Bhakti Sundara Govinda Maharaja wrote some pranam mantras glorifying our Srila Prabhupada, following a request Srila Prabhupada had made years before. The first of those mantras actually refers to him as “Prabhupada.” Another glorifies him as a saktyavesa-avatara, having been empowered by Lord Nityananda because he had taken the order of his spiritual master on his head and distributed the Hare Krishna mahamantra all over both the Eastern and Western worlds. Another calls him “the best of millions of spiritual masters.” These don’t sound to me like the sentiments of someone who doesn’t appreciate Srila Prabhupada’s service.

And it is Sripad Govinda Maharaja who is central to Rocana’s most significant misunderstanding in this conversation. When Srila Prabhupada says, “He always used to say to Sridhara Maharaja that ‘You are seeing Abhay Babu as grhastha, but he is more than many yogis.’ He was telling,” Rocana reads the “he” as referring to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, as evidenced by the interpolation in his version of the comment. However, more carefully reading the transcript, and more carefully listening to the recording, shows that the antecedent to that “he” is “Sridhara Maharaja's chief disciple,” who is, in fact, Sripad Govinda Maharaja. This is corroborated a little later when Srila Prabhupada recaps: “He used to say, that boy.” I doubt that Srila Prabhupada would ever refer to his spiritual master as “that boy.”

Since there is no evidence in this conversation of an instruction by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati that his disciples disobeyed with regard to Srila Prabhupada’s position, there is nothing for Tripurari Maharaja or anyone else to explain. Rocana prabhu has unfortunately presented a faulty interpretation, at least of this part of the conversation. That’s why I think his “challenge” goes unanswered after all these days.

Audarya-lila Dasa - September 19, 2006 5:26 am

Dear Babhru,

I guess my only real comment is that so much has been said and restated in so many ways but Rocana doggishly holds onto his negativity toward Sridhara Maharaja. I honestly don't think it will do any good and that it will definitely cause Rocana to further implicate himself in aparadha. Maybe a shorter simpler version pointing out who actually spoke and the context - disciple to Guru, not Guru to disciple - would be sufficient along with a quote from a 1977 transcript where Srila Prabhupada expresses his desire to have Sridhara Maharaja give siksha to his disciples. The later quote serving the purpose of counterpoint and reconciling of statements made by Srila Prabhupada. I don't think I would repeat all of Rocana's words but merely point out that he misunderstood the transcript.

But honestly, if you want my opinion, any exchange with Rocana is hopeless. You saw from what Brahma posted that he and I have gone around the block with Rocana (there was alot more said than what Brahma posted) and it never helped to educate Rocana. At this point until he breaks down and cries and humbles himself and begs forgiveness for all his offenses he can never hear or reflect properly on the truth.

Obviously one has to look at all that Srila Prabhupada said and try to understand the context of the statements. Maybe directing the readers to Sripad B.B. Vishnu Maharaja's excellent book 'Our affectionate Guardians' would serve the purpose to allowing readers to look more deeply into the issue of who Srila Prabhupada's god brothers are and what his relationship with them is.

Sorry about being so ambivalent - I'm just not sure that it's worth the effort.

Babhru Das - September 19, 2006 5:47 am

An exchange with Rocana is the one thing I don't want, along with giving him a chance for further aparadha. After all our experience with him, I, like you, see no point in it. If there's any value to a response, it would be to point out the glaring error behind his "challenge" to the innocent reader. I think pointing out Srila Prabhupada's invitation to Srila Sridhar Maharaja sort of misses one point I want to make here: that his assertion that Srila Sridhar Maharaja and his followers don't appreciate Srila Prabhupada is just wrong. I thought of pointing out the snide tone of his challenge but thought better of it.

I clipped the quotation, but I'd be happy to delete it altogether. I only included it to highlight his error, but I also considered not giving him the space in my note. I could just include a link to his piece and quote only his challenge to make it clear that I'm addressing only that part of his article.

And, as you may guess, I share your ambivalence (which is why I'm asking for advice), so there's no need for an apology.

Brahma Dasa - September 19, 2006 4:25 pm

Babhru,

I think that you should leave Swami Tripurari's name and Rocana's challenge entirely out of your response.

Simply and briefly address the issue...like you did...then include a link to "Our affectionate Guardians" inviting people to study the issue of the relationship between Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja themselves.

Yes, many of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers were envious, and most did not recognise his potential for such greatness but...the final word on the matter is that Srila Prabhupada said that his discipes could go to Sridhara Maharaj for philosophy. In this way in his final days SP gave special recognision to SM. In his conversation with me even Rocan admitted that in relation to his disciples SP gave SM "siksa guru responsibilities". Would SP give "siksa guru responsibilities" to someone he did not want us to have anything to do with? The idea is abserd.

Anyway..The way I see it is posting a link to "Our affectionate Guardians" on Rocans site would be the main reason to respond.

Bd

Bijaya Kumara Das - September 19, 2006 5:39 pm

Babhru,

 

The way I see it is posting a link to "Our affectionate Guardians" on Rocans site would be the main reason to respond.

 

Bd

I do not who this person is or why we even care what he thinks. I agree that the link would be the best way to dispell any doubts. The facts speak for themselves and all those who are refuting them have not done their research. So lets supply the facts.

Swami - September 19, 2006 7:15 pm

Rocanan's challenge is absurd. His point is that while Prabhupada authorized Sridhara Maharaja to act as a siksa guru in some capacity, disciples of SP like myself who have accepted him as their siska guru have changed the style of their preaching and become, in his opinion, more like SM than like SP. Whether this is accurate or not is of course debatebale, and even if it were true it does not constitute a spiritual deviation. However, it does constitute a spiritual deviation in Rocana's mind becasue he understadds SP to be what he calls a sampradaya acarya (a concocted term), which means to Rocana that the very form of SP's preaching is to be followed by all until the next sampradaya acarya appears. The fact that I do some things differently from the way in which SP did them is all the evidence he needs to prove his point to his fellow fanatics. I am so fed up with this garbage in the name of Gaudiya siddhanta. I have absolutely no hope for Rocana's and those of his ilk's remption in this life.

I am contemplating turning my preaching away from an emphasis on devotees and redireting it towards the uninitiated in a broader outreach.

Bijaya Kumara Das - September 19, 2006 7:25 pm

Rocanan's challenge is absurd. His point is that while Prabhupada authorized Sridhara Maharaja to act as a siksa guru in some capacity, disciples of SP like myself who have accepted him as their siska guru have changed the style of their preaching and become, in his opinion, more like SM than like SP. Whether this is accurate or not is of course debatebale, and even if it were true it does not constitute a spiritual deviation. However, it does constitute a spiritual deviation in Rocana's mind becasue he understadds SP to be what he calls a sampradaya acarya (a concocted term), which means to Rocana that the very form of SP's preaching is to be followed by all until the next sampradaya acarya appears. The fact that I do some things differently from the way in which SP did them is all the evidence he needs to prove his point to his fellow fanatics. I am so fed up with this garbage in the name of Gaudiya siddhanta. I have absolutely no hope for Rocana's and those of his ilk's remption in this life.

 

I am contemplating turning my preaching away from an emphasis on devotees and redireting it towards the uninitiated in a broader outreach.

Two thumbs up on that Guru Maharaja, but the devotees still need Your help because of the likes of guys like this one convoluting their minds.

Babhru Das - September 20, 2006 7:45 pm

Of course Rocana's "challenge" is absurd! Pretty much everything he writes is meant to promote Rocana and his made-up "Sampradaya Acharya" idea. His writing is very much about how he is emblematic of the abused Prabhupada disciples, and his insight is THE solution to all our problems. But what real preaching is he doing? It's easy to see what our Swami is doing, as well as other stalwarts who found inspiration in Srila Sridhar Maharaja, such as Narasimha Maharaja and Paramadvaiti Maharaja. But all we see from Rocana is criticism of other devotees and pigheaded offense against Srila Sridhar Maharaja (he is, frankly, as bad in this regard as Puranjana). Part of me (a big part of me, at times) wanted to just embrarrass him, since it's not possible to really have any dialog with him.

The more I think about it, though, the more I like Brahma's suggestion to ignore the stupid challenge and point out the error, pointing readers to "Our Affectionate Guardians." Rocana will either post it, or he won't. Perhaps I can get a version on Chakra as well. What do you-all think?

Madangopal - September 20, 2006 8:01 pm

I'd leave Chakra out of it. By posting there you will just draw attention to Rocana's piece where he issues the challenge. I'm so accustomed to just by-passing any of Rocana's stuff that I didn't even know he "challenged" until Bhrigu brought it up on here. I think the more who are ignorant of Rocana's philosohpy, the more blissful. Ignorance is bliss! The best you could do is basically ignore his challenge but sneak in some marketing for Our Affectionate Guardians.

Brahma Dasa - September 20, 2006 8:08 pm

I think you should go ahead and submit your response to Rocan’s site, without any mention of Swami or the challenge. Be prepared for his response because he has unlimited capacity for argument and never gives an inch on anything. No need to post it to Chakra.

Babhru Das - September 20, 2006 8:30 pm

I'd leave Chakra out of it. By posting there you will just draw attention to Rocana's piece where he issues the challenge. I'm so accustomed to just by-passing any of Rocana's stuff that I didn't even know he "challenged" until Bhrigu brought it up on here. I think the more who are ignorant of Rocana's philosohpy, the more blissful. Ignorance is bliss!

I'm with you there! As I think I said before, I just don't read his stuff, especially when it has an overt "Sampradaya Acharya" label. And if I start to read it, my eyes spontaneously roll back in their sockets.

I'll rewrite it to only address the two big errors I pointed out and include a link to the full version of Our Affectionate Guardians.

Thanks for your help.

Gaurangi-priya Devi - September 20, 2006 9:21 pm

I am contemplating turning my preaching away from an emphasis on devotees and redireting it towards the uninitiated in a broader outreach.

The fanatic mentality is a sad, , very sad state of affairs. Even though I so much want devotees to benefit from your mature association, I agree that there are so many intelligent people out there wanting direction. You are expert at preaching to intelligent, thoughtful, successful people, and there is a huge need for that kind of preaching. Not very many devotees have that gift.

Babhru Das - September 21, 2006 12:23 am

Here's my latest version. I welcome further suggestions before I send it off.

Grave Errors in “Talks with the Sampradaya Acarya” #3

Recently, in his interpretation of a morning-walk conversation with our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Rocana prabhu made what appear to be rather grave errors. He cited Srila Prabhupada as saying that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta called him “'more than many yogis.” Based on his misunderstanding, Rocana prabhu claimed that Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers, particularly Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja, “were actually disobeying Srila Bhaktisiddhanta by failing to recognize Srila Prabhupada in the same way their Spiritual Master did.”

I’d like to point out two errors that Rocana makes and show how they demonstrate his faulty understanding of what Srila Prabhupada says here. One misunderstanding is that Srila Sridhar Maharaja, along with the rest of Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers, never recognized the magnitude of Srila Prabhupada’s service. He interprets Srila Prabhupada’s comment, “And now they say, ‘This grhastha has come out more than us? What is this?’” to mean that they simply could not accept that his preaching exceeded anything they could have done. In fact, however, they were simply expressing their amazement, even pride, that someone from among their ranks, and not one of the more publicly recognized among them, at that, could do something so wonderful. Here’s how Srila Sridhar Maharaja put it in 1973: “So, our Swami Maharaja has done a miracle! (Laughingly) He has done a miracle. What Bhaktivinoda conceived and [srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati] Prabhupada tried according to his conception to translate into action, we find that through Swami Maharaja in his last days these revelations have been fulfilled. We are happy, we are glad, we are proud of Swami Maharaja, and of you all too.” In fact, when some of their Godbrothers objected to our calling our spiritual master Prabhupada (which title they were accustomed to using for their own spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada), it was Srila Sridhar Maharaja who explained to them that it was perfectly proper for us to do so. And it was in fact Srila Sridhar Maharaja who asserted that our Srila Prabhupada is a saktyavesha-avatar:

As for the descendents of Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers, whom Rocana prabhu also implicates in the imputed offense, Srila Sridhara Maharaja’s chief disciple, Sripad Bhakti Sundara Govinda Maharaja wrote some pranam mantras glorifying our Srila Prabhupada, following a request Srila Prabhupada had made years before. The first of those mantras actually refers to him as “Prabhupada.” Another glorifies him as a saktyavesa-avatara, having been empowered by Lord Nityananda because he had taken the order of his spiritual master on his head and distributed the Hare Krishna mahamantra all over both the Eastern and Western worlds. And yet another calls him “the best of millions of spiritual masters.” These don’t sound to me like the sentiments of someone who doesn’t appreciate Srila Prabhupada’s service.

And it is Sripad Govinda Maharaja who is central to Rocana’s most significant misunderstanding in this conversation. When Srila Prabhupada says, “He always used to say to Sridhara Maharaja that ‘You are seeing Abhay Babu as grhastha, but he is more than many yogis.’ He was telling,” Rocana reads the “he” as referring to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, as evidenced by the interpolation in his version of the comment. However, more carefully reading the transcript, and more carefully listening to the recording, shows that the antecedent to that “he” is “Sridhara Maharaja's chief disciple,” who is, in fact, Sripad Govinda Maharaja. This is corroborated a little later when Srila Prabhupada recaps: “He used to say, that boy.” I doubt that Srila Prabhupada would ever refer to his spiritual master as “that boy.”

Since there is no evidence in this conversation of an instruction by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati that his disciples disobeyed with regard to Srila Prabhupada’s position, I would suggest that those interested in the truth of the matter revisit the conversation Rocana prabhu interprets for us, perhaps without the benefit of his analysis. And those who are really interested in the nature of relationship between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja would certainly do well to read Bhakti Bhavana Vishnu Maharaja’s Our Affectionate Guardians at http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/...dged/index.html.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 21, 2006 4:39 am

I am contemplating turning my preaching away from an emphasis on devotees and redireting it towards the uninitiated in a broader outreach.

As classics would say: Latrantem curatne alta Diana canem? Does high Diana (goddess of hunting) worry about a barking dog?

By preaching to devotees how many nice people and supporters did you collect? How many will you in the future? How your students benefiting from association with them? The dogs are barking, the caravan moves on.

Audarya-lila Dasa - September 21, 2006 6:00 am

The new version is great. I think you should submit and see if it gets posted. You may find yourself having to answer Rocana's response which will undoubtedly come. Let's just see..... I think you did an excellent job.

Brahma Dasa - September 21, 2006 5:24 pm

Yes the new version is Excellent!

I think you shoul leave a space between---Our Affectionate Guardians at:--and

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/...dged/index.html.

And sign you name at the bottom--Babhru dasa (ACBSP)

Brahma

Babhru Das - September 21, 2006 6:32 pm

Thanks for your suggestions; I sent it to Rocana last night. I put a byline after the title before sending it, but I never use the (ACBSP) thing. It just seems awkward to me, and I'm not likely to be confused with any other Babhrus. As far as I know, there's only one other out there, a German devotee who, interestingly, volunteers with Vaisnavas Care, the end-of-life project run by my old friends (and former teachers in my Honolulu gurukula project) Sangita and Jusaniya.

Bhrigu - September 21, 2006 7:15 pm

Let's see if he posts it and if so, how he replies, but I think your text was excellent, Babhru Prabhu. I liked the first version, but the second one is even better. After seeing the dialogue Brahma Prabhu posted it is indeed hard to believe that Rocana would change his mind, but I think that sober but hard-hitting texts like this will influence other readers. We are fortunate to have you in our group!

Babhru Das - September 21, 2006 7:33 pm

Membership in this group is my good fortune. I agree that there's little or no hope of influencing Rocana. But since he brought it up, I thought we should use his site to at least try to offer a more correct version of things. Will he post it? We'll see. Will he try to put his own spin back on it? No doubt. All we can do us our best.

Bijaya Kumara Das - September 22, 2006 6:23 am

Just the facts folks. They speak for themselves and those with their heads in the sand can keep them there.

The truth shall be known no matter who thinks they are right and of course we are for Guru Maharaja always speaks the truth.

Babhru Das - September 22, 2006 7:29 pm

Well, it appears Rocana posted my response without any change, including the link to Our Affectionate Guardians. However, somehow a couple of extra characters showed up in the URL for OAG, and the reader is taken to a different page. They aren't there in either the version I posted here or the version I sent Rocana. I guess I can write and ask if he can fix that.

Babhru Das - September 23, 2006 5:52 am

In his response to my request that he fix the link, Rocana advised me that he'll be responding to my "constructive criticism" which he said is "much appreciated" in a few days. We can be on the lookout for a quotation from the letter to Rupanuga, I suppose.

Vrindaranya Dasi - September 23, 2006 1:48 pm

Great article, Babhru! Very clear, to the point, and definitive for any sane person.

Bijaya Kumara Das - September 25, 2006 4:21 am

Dear Prabhus: I just watched the SPD 10 of His Divine Grace and it answers a lot of his, Rocana das, questions.

Maybe some one can get Rocana a copy of SPD 10 from the complete DVD Library it may help.

Madangopal - September 26, 2006 8:00 pm

Rocana has offered up some more dung to pollute the internet in response to Babhru. He is quite an empowered dung distributor. It was worth a try for the innocent, but this man needs help that I think only a sampradaya acarya can offer! He most likely purposefully messed up your link Babhru and has not repaired it.

I believe it was after discussion of some of this that Guru Maharaj said he wants to change his focus to preaching to the uninitiated. Who wouldn't feel the same after reading Rocana's ugly ugly nauseating aparadha philosophy? Where is the river I can jump in?

I vote for non-discussion of his name and pastimes anymore on this board. It is just a deep dark well to plunge into and I don't find countering his points in any way insightful for us. I'm with John Lennon: Let it be.

Babhru Das - September 26, 2006 8:20 pm

Rocana has offered up some more dung to pollute the internet in response to Babhru. He is quite an empowered dung distributor. It was worth a try for the innocent, but this man needs help that I think only a sampradaya acarya can offer! He most likely purposefully messed up your link Babhru and has not repaired it.

 

I believe it was after discussion of some of this that Guru Maharaj said he wants to change his focus to preaching to the uninitiated. Who wouldn't feel the same after reading Rocana's ugly ugly nauseating aparadha philosophy? Where is the river I can jump in?

If you were here, all you'd have to do is step outside into the rain, which is what I just did. And I'd sure like to have a big pile of Rocana's hockey for my vegetable garden, bananas, and papayas.

I'm amused and somewhat flattered that he would crown me as Brahma's successor, but I'm really peeved by his left-handed (sorry again!) compliments to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, as well as his assertion that devotees must choose either Srila Sridhar Maharaja or Srila Prabhupada. There simply is no such dichotomy for anyone I know personally, including my friend Vidagdha Madhava, who took diksha from SSM. Most dichotomies are false, in my experience, and they're at the core of poor rhetoric. I do think it's possble that Rocana messed up the URL on purpose because he hasn't actually made the repair he told me he had made.

I'm thinking about how--and, indeed, whether--I might reply to this latest nonsense. I think that, especially after editing out references to Rocana's stupid challenge and to Swami, my article was my response to his was a personal one, not submitted as a spokesperson for Swami or for Srila Sridhar Maharaja. It's no secret, of course, that I actively support Swami's preaching efforts. I'd be delighted to join Brahma as spokesperson for Sri Chaitanya Sangha, but I think I'd need to commit more of my energy to that to earn such recognition. And it's a fact that I'm working on that as well.

Anyway, I look forward to all advice from Tattva-vivekis about the nature of any response.

Madangopal - September 26, 2006 8:33 pm

If you were here, all you'd have to do is step outside into the rain, which is what I just did.

I couldn't handle it, so I took shelter of sense gratification... I'm eating ice cream.

Anyway, I look forward to all advice from Tattva-vivekis about the nature of any response.

I am completely sold on the idea that a response is a waste of bright, intellectual, well-reasoned energy. I feel quite strongly like this

Babhru Das - September 27, 2006 4:44 am

I couldn't handle it, so I took shelter of sense gratification... I'm eating ice cream.

Well, it's 80 degrees when it rains here, which is fortunate, since we're on track for 140 inches or more this year. And ice cream would be great after bathing in the rain. (Sometimes we get rain and sunshine together, so we can get divya-snana.)

I am completely sold on the idea that a response is a waste of bright, intellectual, well-reasoned energy. I feel quite strongly like this

As peeved as I am, I'm inclined to agree. And I really am down with Swami's idea of preaching to new people. Vidagdha and I are working on getting some outside programs going here.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 27, 2006 5:54 am

Could you help me guys with the link to Rocanas replay? (I have a river just next to my house so dont worry:))

Babhru Das - September 27, 2006 6:21 am

Could you help me guys with the link to Rocanas replay? (I have a river just next to my house so dont worry:))

River? Nice work!

Here goes:

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-06/editorials724.htm

Swami - September 27, 2006 9:53 am

The fact that Rocan feels good enough about his Rocana-edited-debate with Brahma from years ago to post it is telling. Any sane person acquainted with Gaudiya siddhanta will see how foolish he is from reading it.

Bhrigu - September 27, 2006 11:27 am

I also feel that it would be best to not write any further response. The first one did just what it was supposed to do: it corrected Rocana's faults and (almost) directed inquisitive readers to Our Affectionate Guardians. Nobody expected Rocana to change his mind. Still, it is telling that he in his reply had nothing to say about the errors pointed out to him. He basically just said that Prabhupada's Godbrothers didn't appreciate Prabhupada as much as Prabhupada's disciples (surprise!), that Sridhara Maharaja is OK but not as good as the Sampradaya Acarya (since that's how I've defined things, folks!) and that Tripurari Maharaja etc are wrong in having more affection for him than for Srila Prabhupada. Even if that's true, how can you legislate affection!

Babhru Das - September 27, 2006 6:54 pm

I agree that it's best to just let it go. After all, poor Rocana never really addressed my assertion that his most blatant error was attributing the "better than many yogis" comment to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. He seemed to give a little ground on Srila Sridhara Maharaja's appreciation of Srila Prabhupada, but he managed to turn the apparent concession into further offense.

There's no way to make any progress with his assertions that we all have more affection and respect for Srila Sridhar Maharaja than Srila Prabhupada, even if it were a relevant issue at all. For those disciples of Srila Prabhupada's who met with Srila Sridhar Maharaja, my perception is that the affection and respect for the two are identical. Still, I think we all happily acknowledge that it was Srila Prabhupada who came after us, and that Srila Sridhar Maharaja was happy to help whoever was able to avail themselves of his company. Although I was not fortunate enough to be among them, I can tell you just when my regard for SSM began. In 1970, I think in the fall, Acyutananda had a BTG article called "The Descent of the Holy Name" which was essentially a transcript of a talk he had with SSM in Navadvipa. I remember sitting in the brahmachari ashram of the Honolulu ISKCON center, reading this article over and over again, reflecting on how Srila Prabhupada came from among amazing company. Later, at the beginning of 1974, Sudama loaned me a copy of a tape of the well-known 1973 conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja. As I listened to it, the mutual love and respect was clear in their voices. After that, whenever I heard some rumor about SSM, I found it hard to swallow, much less digest. When I began to hear accusations about him in the '80s (I didn't hear much, because I lived in the middle of the ocean, there was no Internet, and most of us had a hard time even affording long-distance phone calls), I felt very disturbed, even a little confused, because I could not reconcile those stories with what I heard in those two voices. When I went to the big New Vrindavan meeting in September of 1975 and saw how many devotees were treating our Godbrother B. A. Narayana Maharaja (who had been Bhakti Dayal Swami in ISKCON), I was shocked and began to suspect that my time in ISKCON was near an end. (And by January '86 I was gone.)

Anyway, I think I've already given Rocana too much of my energy. Time for those more deserving.