Tattva-viveka
Direct relationship with Krishna?
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 21, 2006 7:21 am
I am new on Tattva viveka, and I haven´t read all topics yet, but I have one filosophical issue that I don´t understend completly and I couldn´t find it here. In many places acharyas and scriptures say, that actually in Goloka all should be serving, and helping Divine Couple with Their pastimes, everyone thinks how to make Their happines more intense, and are happy seeing Radha uniting with Krishna.
In other places we can see diffrent descriptions: for example during rasa dance all gopi feel that Krishna dances only with them, and each one of them thinks thet she is the dearest to Him. Similary all souls there think the same way - they are the dearest to Krishna.
I know these topics are far behind my capacity of understending, I am just trying to improve my sadhana, and get some attachment to feet of Vaisnava, and I see how far I am, however this question arises in my mind: can we aspire to attain personal relation with Krishna, or this is maya, and our only goal should be helping Radha and Krishna in Their Love? I see in sastras both kinds of descriptions, and I wander if there is any way to understand this at least litlle bit, on the stage I am now? I realise that spiritual realization will harmonize everything, but how we are to understand it now?
Thanks
Rama-priya - September 21, 2006 8:19 am
I don't know whether I'm correct but as far as I understood for badha jiva it is impossible to develop direct relationship with Krsna, but it means idependendly, without other devotees, not following examples of beloved servant of Krsna. And i think that the devotees because of love and personal relationship either Radha or Krsna they want to make the Divine Couple be together. For example friends of Krsna who knows how much Krsna loves Radha they try to help him to meet with her. But it doesn't mean that they don't have personal relationship with Krsna that they don't feel His love etc. Similarly friends or handmaidens of Radha they see how Radha suffer when she cannot see Him therefore because of love for Radha they love Krsna and try to arrange everything, cooperating with friends of Krsna to make it possible, even if this can be dangerous. From the other side Radharani because of affection for her friends and her effort to make Krsna happy has desire to make ararngements that her friends can meet Krsna personally. Handmaiden of Radha very strongly indentify with her that what she experiences they experience it also, these symptoms appear on their body. Example of this is Rupa and Sanatana Gosvami in Caitanya lila.
It is my understanding regarding this matter
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 21, 2006 8:54 am
Thanks for your replay Rama Priya, very nice. I understand this point that we must not to try to jump over our guru, and we should always try to please devotee.
What about chanting? When I chant, it is quite difficult for me (I would say impossible 
) to think about how to help Radha to unite with Krishna. I don´t even intent to do so, it would feel strange to me. So I try to think about Krishna, praying to Him, asking Him to help me feel His presence (and trying to listen my rounds of course 
), but I am not sure if it is completly proper mood? Is it not jumping over? And where should be my spiritual master in my chanting?
Bhrigu - September 21, 2006 12:54 pm
One thing you could do, Madhavendra Puriji, is to before whatever devotional activity you do, pray to your Guru Maharaja and ask him for permission to approach Krishna for service. There is one very common Sanskrit sloka you may recite ("the Ananda-verse"):
shrii-guro paramaananda premaananda-phala-prada
vrajaananda-pradaananda-sevaayam maa niyojaya
"O guru, supremely blissful, giver of the fruit of blissful prema, giver of the bliss of Vraja! Please engage me in blissful service!"
After this, do your seva, meditating on the divine couple, but aware of the person who gives you this opportunity. As far as I have understood, meditating on uniting Radha with Krishna will come with time. If it feels unnatural at this stage, meditate on something else: just the names, or Krishna's qualities such as his mercifullness.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 21, 2006 1:22 pm
Thank you Bhrigu for your advice. It was something I was looking for. After some years in devotional practice I realize that I have to go to the beginnings, and try to start doing things right.
Swami - September 22, 2006 1:30 pm
I am new on Tattva viveka, and I haven´t read all topics yet, but I have one filosophical issue that I don´t understend completly and I couldn´t find it here. In many places acharyas and scriptures say, that actually in Goloka all should be serving, and helping Divine Couple with Their pastimes, everyone thinks how to make Their happines more intense, and are happy seeing Radha uniting with Krishna.
In other places we can see diffrent descriptions: for example during rasa dance all gopi feel that Krishna dances only with them, and each one of them thinks thet she is the dearest to Him. Similary all souls there think the same way - they are the dearest to Krishna.
I know these topics are far behind my capacity of understending, I am just trying to improve my sadhana, and get some attachment to feet of Vaisnava, and I see how far I am, however this question arises in my mind: can we aspire to attain personal relation with Krishna, or this is maya, and our only goal should be helping Radha and Krishna in Their Love? I see in sastras both kinds of descriptions, and I wander if there is any way to understand this at least litlle bit, on the stage I am now? I realise that spiritual realization will harmonize everything, but how we are to understand it now?
Thanks
In gopi bhava there are two possible alternatives mentioned by Sri Rupa, sambhogecchamayi and tadbhavecchamayi. The former is the role of a gopi who has a direct love affair with Krsna and the latter is the role of asisting a group leader who has a direct love affair with Krsna. Although both are mentioned, in Gaudiya Vaisnavism only the latter is pursued in relation to Radha, and it is considered to be transcendentally better than the former. Thus Sri Radha's handmaidens will never accept Krsna's proposal to unite personally with him becasue they feel that assisting Radha in her relationship with him is a more desireable position. This bhava is the special gift of Mahaprabhu—unatojjvala rasa. Of course it is not that those in this bhava have no personal repore with Krsna whatsoever, as explained by Rama-priya. This gopi bhava is also termed bhavollasa rati or more commonly manjari-bhava. I believe that the Vallabha and Nimbarka sampradayas pursue sambhogecchamayi gopi bhava.
In sahkya bhava our ideal is to follow the bhava of the priyanarma sakhas who are involved in the romantic life of Radha Krsna. Their bhava is sakhya-bhava mixed with gopi-bhava. Each of the principle priyanarma sakhas have an unlimited number of assistans who follow in the wake of their bhava, assiting them in serving Krsna in sakhya rasa. Under the direction of one's group leader in sakhya-bhava one will sometimes be given direct service to Krsna in his cowherding lila.
With regard to the conjugal element in his bhava, each of the priyanarma group leaders (yuthesvara) also serve Radha Krsna under the direction of a gopi group leader (yuthesvari). In our sampradaya the female group leader emphasized the most is Lalita-sakhi, who is qualified to be an independent group leader but chooses to subordinate herself to Radha and is the leader of the manjaris such as Rupa manjari and the other Goswamis. She is the female group leader for Madhumangala. Visakha gopi, whose position is like that of Lalita, and Radha herself are also emphasized. They are the female group leaders of Ujjvala and Subala respectfully.
Unlike devotees is pure sakhya rasa uninfluenced by conjugal love the priyanarma sakha's bhava extends in transcendental excellence and intimacy beyond the reach of vastsalya-bhava and up to mahabhava, although falling just short of the extrme of mahabhava experienced by Sri Radha's manjaris. As mentioned in Brhad-bhagavatamrta, such friends of Krsna take more pleasure in receiving the order of Radha and her group than they do in receiving the direct order of Krsna. Although for the sake of rasa they take Krsna's side in his arguments with the gopis, when the gopis are not present the priynarma sakhas are expert in pleading the case of their female group leader (Radha's case). They deliver secret mesages to Krsna, whispering in his ear, and they also deliver Krsna's messages to the gopis.
Otherwise in general indirect is better than direct might be a good way to describe the Gaudiya position on Vraja-bhakti. We aspire to follow in the footsteps of Krsna's eternal associates—to follow their bhava as it begins to appear to us in the person of Sri Guru. So we should, as Bhrigupada mentions, place emphasis on Sri Guru. In fact guru-bhakti is more pleasing to Krsna than Krsna-bhakti. One cannot serve Krsna without honoring the guru, but if one makes serving Krsna an aspect of serving Sri Guru rather than making the service of the guru and aspect of serving Krsna, such an approach is more pleasing to Sri Krsna. This is the opionion of Sri Jiva Goswami mentoned in his Bhakti-sandarbha. Jaya Gurudeva!
Madangopal - September 22, 2006 2:14 pm
After reading that I'm wondering if I am the only one looking for the smiley's with the ecstatic symptoms like hair standing on end, horripilation, etc. I can at least say I'm hypnotized by this explanation , awestruck and completely humbled by my good fortune to be in this association.
We aspire to follow in the footsteps of Krsna's eternal associates—to follow their bhava as it begins to appear to us in the person of Sri Guru. Jaya Gurudeva!
I could not agree more. Jaya Gurudeva! Thank you for that enlightening, sweet and all around wonderful glimpse into the proper understanding of the topmost relationships.
I believe that the Vallabha and Nimbarka sampradayas pursue sambhogecchamayi gopi bhava.
Your explanation of sambhogecchamayi bhava led me to wonder if Mirabai was a follower of either of these paths of Vaisnavism. As I have heard Pujyapada Sridhar Maharaj's comments about Mirabai and your explanations in regard to our preference for indirect service, I'm wondering if she was influenced by a lineage in her pursuit of Krsna bhakti or if that was just her own feeling.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 22, 2006 3:19 pm
Thank you Maharaja for this replay. It is so complete that I dont know what to say. I am going to print it and study.
I am just reading "Sri Guru And His Grace", I am in the part where Sriddhara Maharaja is talking about this point: that we always serve under Vaisnava, and we don't aspire for direct approach to Krishna. That Krishna is more happy, when we serve His devotees.
How can I attain this kind of counciessnes? In this point of my spiritual life I want to approach guru, to ask him to help me to know Krishna and to make me connected with Him. How to transcend this desire?
____O_
Swami - September 22, 2006 3:26 pm
Your explanation of sambhogecchamayi bhava led me to wonder if Mirabai was a follower of either of these paths of Vaisnavism. As I have heard Pujyapada Sridhar Maharaj's comments about Mirabai and your explanations in regard to our preference for indirect service, I'm wondering if she was influenced by a lineage in her pursuit of Krsna bhakti or if that was just her own feeling.
Yes, Mirabai also comes to my mind in this regard, but that would be generous. We would have to scrutinize her songs, which is all we have to draw upon. I have never done that. Other than what Sridhara Maharaja has said, I seem to remember that Gaura Govinda Maharaja placed her in the Brahmajyoti. As far as I know she has no lineage at all.
Bijaya Kumara Das - September 22, 2006 4:10 pm
, but if one makes serving Krsna an aspect of serving Sri Guru rather than making the service of the guru and aspect of serving Krsna, such an approach is more pleasing to Sri Krsna. This is the opionion of Sri Jiva Goswami mentoned in his Bhakti-sandarbha. Jaya Gurudeva!
This is really very high thought for me Guru Maharaja. Could you site an example for my limited understanding. How does one serve Krsna as an aspect of serving Guru ? ie By distributing our Gurus' books?, or bring disciples to Him for understanding Krsna ?
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 22, 2006 5:48 pm
She is the female group leader for Madhumangala.
...
They are the female group leaders of Ujjvala and Subala respectfully.
Can you explain this, please? How vidusakas are related to yuthesvaris?
Swami - September 22, 2006 7:06 pm
Can you explain this, please? How vidusakas are related to yuthesvaris?
Madhumangala is a vidusaka, or joker/clown, but he is also a priyanarma sakha.
Swami - September 22, 2006 7:17 pm
This is really very high thought for me Guru Maharaja. Could you site an example for my limited understanding. How does one serve Krsna as an aspect of serving Guru ? ie By distributing our Gurus' books?, or bring disciples to Him for understanding Krsna ?
In Krsna bhakti the guru is honored in the context of honoring Krsna. We invoke his presence and appeal for his blessing to worship Krsna in all respects. So service to the guru is an aspect of service to Krsna. However, some devotees are filled with guru-bhakti, and conceptually and practially they are so involved in guru seva that they reverse the two and place service to the guru as the main practice and within the context of this seva they serve Krsna. For example, they may neglect hearing, chanting, arcanam, etc., which are the main limbs of bhakti and keep themselves busy serving their guru, or they may put aside sravanam, kirtanam, etc. when the occasion to serve the guru presents itself at the same time.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 22, 2006 9:44 pm
Madhumangala is a vidusaka, or joker/clown, but he is also a priyanarma sakha.
So, as priyanarma sakha he "reports" to the appropriate yuthesvari, such as Lalita? Correct?
Do gopas and gopis in our sampradaya have same bhava (sakhya-bhava mixed with gopi-bhava) or different? For example Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is a gopi, but Srila Prabhupada is a gopa. Are we aspiring to be in Lalita’s group or Madhumangala’s? Is this a good question to ask?
Swami - September 23, 2006 12:50 am
Nanda-tanuja dasa' date='Sep 22 2006, 02:44 PM' post='9076']So, as priyanarma sakha he "reports" to the appropriate yuthesvari, such as Lalita? Correct?
She is his principle contact in that sector.
Do gopas and gopis in our sampradaya have same bhava (sakhya-bhava mixed with gopi-bhava) or different? For example Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is a gopi, but Srila Prabhupada is a gopa.
Only the priyanarma gopas have this mixed bhava. Other sakhas do not, nor do the manjaris. Yes, Prabhupada expressed affinity for a different bhava from that of BVT.
Are we aspiring to be in Lalita’s group or Madhumangala’s? Is this a good question to ask?
I am waiting for you to tell me what you are aspiring for, but I lucily I have a lot of patience since that will take some time. So at this point it is not a very good question. Appropritate longing arises out of saranagati, which is fully in place at the stage of ruci. Before this the sadhaka should concentrate on becoming selfless. "Die to live." Serve the mission.
The theory, however, is that those who develop an affinity for priyanarma sakha bhava will follow their affinity and see their Gurudeva as representing this bhava. Similarly those who develop an affinity for the gopi bhava of a manjari will see their gurudeva accordingly. This is explained in Jaiva Dharma. Just like the President of the US comes from a particular state and has an affinity for it but as the president he represents all of the states, similarly Sri Guru has his particualr affinity yet he or she represents the whole of the land of love and gives access to applicants in accordance with their sentiment.
It should be clear how a guru with affinity for gopi bhava can also represent sakhya bhava since sakhya bhava is contained within gopi bhava, but one may question how a guru with affinity for sakhya bhava can represent gopi bhava to a disciple who develops affinity for this sentiment since gopi bhava is not within sakhya bhava (even the priyanarma sakha does not experience the gopi bhava of a manjari). I once told BP Puri Goswami that some disciples of my Gurudeva had been preaching like this, as if to say that Prabhupada's diciples who developed affinity for gopi bhava would have a problem. Sri Puri Goswami laughed and said "Someone has a Guru situated in sakhya bhava and he is he thiniking has a problem!! As of to say, "He really doesn't get it."
A little theoretical knowledge can of course be useful. However, now we better come down to earth. Madhavandra Puri dasa and others should practie nama samaranam--japa of Hare Krsna maha manta--and sankirtana. Meditation in the full sense is for the stage of asakti. Work now for the mission and samadhi will come later. Kirtana prabhave, samarna svabhave.
Bijaya Kumara Das - September 23, 2006 7:19 am
In Krsna bhakti the guru is honored in the context of honoring Krsna. We invoke his presence and appeal for his blessing to worship Krsna in all respects. So service to the guru is an aspect of service to Krsna. However, some devotees are filled with guru-bhakti, and conceptually and practially they are so involved in guru seva that they reverse the two and place service to the guru as the main practice and within the context of this seva they serve Krsna. For example, they may neglect hearing, chanting, arcanam, etc., which are the main limbs of bhakti and keep themselves busy serving their guru, or they may put aside sravanam, kirtanam, etc. when the occasion to serve the guru presents itself at the same time.
Thank you. I sure hope I have not reversed the 2.