Tattva-viveka
experiencing ananda in Brahman
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 24, 2006 7:02 pm
I am in the middle of discussion with one devotee. He is saying that when jiva merges with Brahman after attaining impersonal realization, she (jiva) is experiencing ananda that is more intense then anything we can experience in this material world. Are there any quotes from sastras supporting (or opposing) this opinion? Untill now I belived that after attaining impersonal liberation jiva doesn't experience anything, since she lost (even if it is only apparent and temporary lost) individuality, and to experience anything experiencer is required. (I hope you can get trough my English 
)
Prabhupada states often that in Brahman only the sat, quality of eternity is manifested, in Paramatma sat and cit (knowledge) and ananda is attained after Bhagavan realization, but I dont know any sastra quotes supporting this. Is anyone willing to help me with this?
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 24, 2006 7:22 pm
I just got from him following quotes
"In the entry to this journal of 2nd November I related the teaching of the Brahmavalli portion of Taittirya Upanisad. Here too the conclusion is that Brahman is the state of incomparable bliss, beyond even the happiness of Prajapati Brahma, what to speak of entities below him. Vedanta-sutra 1. 1. 12 makes reference to Brahmavalli in Vyasadeva's statement anandamayo abhyasat (V-s 1. 1. 12). "
IBSA (ISKCON Bhaktivedanta Sadhana Asrama), Govardhana, India
31 December 2003
For Gaudiya Vaisnavas, the message of Taittiriya II. 7. 1 is most pertinent: raso vai sah, "He is rasa. " The Upanisad explicates rasa thusly: esa hy eva anandayati, "this verily bestows bliss. " If rasa bestows ananda, and rasa is Brahman, then Brahman must be of the nature of bliss.(it's from this website: http://www.suhotraprabhu.com/in2-mec/index.php?p=J031231 )
"Brahmaananda and man.
The Upanishads attempt to give men a faint idea of the measure of that Brahma-ananda. TheTaithireeya Upanishad assumes the height of human ananda as the unit for estimation. A personhaving all the wealth he desires, all the renown man can earn, all the learning that can be gained,perfect health, perpetual youth, and undisputed sovereignty over the entire globe---his Ananda isan understandable base from which to proceed. A hundred times this Maanushi-ananda is theAnanda of celestial singers (Gandharvas); a hundred times that is the Ananda of the souls ofdeparted beings dwelling in heavenly regions. Hundred-fold of this is the Ananda of the divineentities (Ajanma-ja). A hundred times is the Ananda of the gods (Deva); the Lord of the Gods,Indra, is ever in Ananda that is a hundred times more than that of the Gods, Brhaspathi, thepreceptor of Indra, has Ananda a hundred times more than Indra; and Prajapathi, the Lord ofCreatures, has a hundred-fold Ananda when compared to Brhaspathi. Hiranyagarbha (the CosmicGolden Manifestation) is the source of a hundred times more Ananda. The Supremest Ananda,the Brahma-Ananda, which is the characteristic of the Guru, is that of Hiranyagarbha."
But who is experiencing in Brahman?
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 24, 2006 8:05 pm
I found following quote that is stating (I think) there is no ananda in Brahman:
Q. What is impersonal consciousness?
A. First, the principle in the material world which separates all things is called visesa (distinction based upon material quality). By merely renouncing material thinking, one only gives up the conception of material distinction, and thereby one's consciousness falls into the realm of nirvisesa (non-distinction). In this condition, one is unable to perceive the differences between material objects, since the self is situated in nirvana or merging with the impersonal abode of Brahman. This state is not a happy one at all; being bereft of the natural bliss of the eternally conscious soul, the prema or ecstatic love for the Lord remains concealed. The eternal pastimes of Sri Krsna are certainly beyond matter; indeed, they are endowed with cin-maya-visesa, or divinely conscious distinction.
Vaisnava Siddhanta-mala-Bhaktivinoda Thakura
Bhrigu - September 25, 2006 3:12 pm
Swami sometimes speaks of the bliss of Brahman as being the bliss of "getting out of negative numbers". If one has been heavily in debt, getting out of debt and back to zero is a huge relief. Still, there are positive numbers as well (Krishna consciousness), in relation to which zero (Brahman) is nothing. In other words, compared to everything material, liberation in Brahman is hugely blissful, but it is nothing compared to the bliss of devotion.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 25, 2006 4:23 pm
Swami sometimes speaks of the bliss of Brahman as being the bliss of "getting out of negative numbers". If one has been heavily in debt, getting out of debt and back to zero is a huge relief. Still, there are positive numbers as well (Krishna consciousness), in relation to which zero (Brahman) is nothing. In other words, compared to everything material, liberation in Brahman is hugely blissful, but it is nothing compared to the bliss of devotion.
But to experience that blisfulness we need to have idividuality. Does it mean impersonalist after getting to Brahman keeps his identity?
Bhrigu - September 25, 2006 5:30 pm
But to experience that blisfulness we need to have idividuality. Does it mean impersonalist after getting to Brahman keeps his identity?
As far as I have understood, the jiva cannot lose its individuality, since it is part of its nature. Baladeva gives the simile of a green bird flying into a green tree. It seems to merge, but actually doesn't. As with all similes, it isn't perfect, since in this case, the jiva believes itself to be merged into brahman.
Guru-nistha Das - September 26, 2006 3:39 am
Here's an excerpt from Guru Maharaja's Aesthetic Vedanta where he speaks about this issue. Before this part in the book GM has discussed the secular or "mundane" rasa theory in regards to drama. He explains that some advaitins compare the experience of an aesthetic peak emotion felt by the viewer during a drama to Brahman realization and then this follows:
"When advaitins compare the experience of secular rasa to Brahman realization, the comparison falls short for a number of reasons. First of all, the secular experience of rasa lasts only as long as the dramatic scene, whereas realization of Brahman is eternal. From the perspective of monistic advaita-vedanta, Brahman is not an experience at all. Its realization is thought to dissolve the the experience, the experienced and the experiencer into one undifferentiated ultimate reality, devoid of sound, name, color, form, and so on. Thus for monists, ultimate reality is nothing like aesthetic rasa, for there is no scope in ulitmate reality for the necessary ingredients of rasa. There is no subject/object relationship, nor any variegatedness."
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 26, 2006 5:51 am
Here's an excerpt from Guru Maharaja's Aesthetic Vedanta where he speaks about this issue. (...) Thus for monists, ultimate reality is nothing like aesthetic rasa, for there is no scope in ulitmate reality for the necessary ingredients of rasa. There is no subject/object relationship, nor any variegatedness."
Thanks Guru Nistha.
Bhrigu - September 26, 2006 4:38 pm
Still, there is bliss in Brahman -- why would there otherwise be a concept such as Brahmananda, and how could the Taittiriya Upanisad be wrong?
Madangopal - September 26, 2006 5:07 pm
I would have to go with Bhrigu on this - There is certainly bliss in Brahman realization, in moksa, etc. because it is the bliss of freedom from suffering. Like the Buddhist goal of attaining understanding of one's non-existence, this will award a certain happiness. If I break my leg and realize that I'm not my leg, and don't therefore identify with the pain, I am in a way happy. I have come from negative numbers (suffering, duality) to an undifferentiated experience - zero. Relatively that is happy.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - September 26, 2006 5:57 pm
Still my main doubt is not ressolved. My understanding is that to experience anything you must be counciouss of your existence. Even if loosing someone's identity is only an ilusion, still he's loosing it, isn't he?
Basically I found 2 ways to understand what "feels" soul whu got to the Brahman.
-Some say it is experience of incredible bliss, and happiness, that is like flowing in light, peace and happines
-Others say that merging with Brahman is like a state of deep sleep, when you dont feel anything, you dont experiece anything, because you rejected your "self" and by this act you rejected the means to experience.
My mind tells me some speculations, but I can not provide any evidence for it.
-First options is attained by Brahmavadis, who have some bhakti and by it they are able to get to Krsna's effulgence which must be full of bliss.
-Second option is the destination of Buddhists and Mayavadis, who are offensive towards God, so they become stone or tree.
Guru-nistha Das - September 26, 2006 8:15 pm
Still, there is bliss in Brahman -- why would there otherwise be a concept such as Brahmananda, and how could the Taittiriya Upanisad be wrong?
Well, I guess Taittiriya Upanisad can only be right if we see brahman in a way the devotional school of vedanta does? In other words, Advaita can't at least logically back up scriptural statements where it's said that there's bliss in Brahman, or am I wrong? Also, if we think of the analogy of relief from negative numbers, there has to be an experiencer who feels that relief. Without an experiencer there's no question of such ideas as positive, negative or neutral.
Swami - September 27, 2006 2:31 am
There are innumerable scriptural statements confirming that Brahman realization is blissful. Monists would claim that they do not experience bliss in Brahman realization becasue Brahman is bliss and they are brahman. Monists assert that one does not ultimately exist as an individual experiencing the bliss of another (Brahman), but rather that there is no "other" to experiene, only Brahman. And tat tvam asi, sister.