Tattva-viveka
In Goloka....
Jason - October 21, 2006 2:08 am
Lookin' for some clarification on a few things I heard GM mention in a lecture from the last time he was in NC (morning class of 5/5, if that helps?), in regards to one devotee's question regarding nitya and sadhana siddhas....
Firstly, that particular class, and running a close 2nd, the one on the evening of 5/4....oh, my....so amazing. Listened to those two classes ONLY, all week. Unreal!
Q1. Maharaja mentioned something to the effect that, "...Mahavishnu, by sleeping and waking, is continuing the cycle of the the badha-jiva (spelling?), part of the tatastha-sakti, appearing in the material world." Then he mentions that while interacting with the material nature to some extent, He [Vishnu], is merciful because from Him comes various avatars. Then Maharaja mentioned a few such incarnations. I thought I heard that Mahaprabhu was one such incarnation, but I thought that Mahaprabhu, being both Krsna and Radha, would not be considered part of this catagory? Did I miss something?
Q2. When the sadhana-siddha enters Krsna-lila in Goloka, and is "mingling" with the other nitya-siddhas, is there any concept/knowledge between the two, that they are different in nature? I understand that there is no jealousy, enviousness, etc., but is there any real reason to distinguish between the two since both have attained the highest goal?
Thanks in advance for the clarification! I hope everyone is doing well; it's been a little quiet here lately!
YS,
Jason
Babhru Das - October 21, 2006 7:14 am
Nice questions, Jason. One thought on the first is that Mahaprabhu is Radha and Krishna, but he also brings with him the yuga-avatar whose pastimes feature preaching the yuga dharma, nama sankirtan. And Mahaprabhu preaches Sri Krishna sankirtan in such a way that it awakens an our inclination for Vraja prema.
I'm not sure I have much of a response yet to the second question.
Brahma Dasa - October 21, 2006 4:31 pm
I don't know of anything in scripture saying that in the spiritual world there is any distinction between sadhana siddha and nitya siddha. Prabhupada writes that sadhana siddha and nitya siddha come to the same stage.
Gaurangi-priya Devi - October 21, 2006 7:11 pm
I don't know of anything in scripture saying that in the spiritual world there is any distinction between sadhana siddha and nitya siddha. Prabhupada writes that sadhana siddha and nitya siddha come to the same stage.
I just heard in a lecture by GM that Prabhupada said the important word in those is siddha, perfection. How they got to such perfection is not so important.
Jason - October 21, 2006 10:41 pm
Thanks for your responses! In regards to the 2nd question, I think that I may have found the answer in a combination of Brahma and Gaurangi-priya's responses, and Maharaja's lecture following the one that I had referenced above. The way I'm understanding it is that ultimately, it doesn't really matter because both types of jivas reach the same stage of perfection. However, Maharaja did mention in that lecture that while often times the conditioned soul feels he/she may have gotton the bad side of the deal, there is no reason to have a revolution with all the nitya-baddhas. Instead, there's another way to look at it...
The baddha-jiva, through sadhana and mercy, attains the level of sadhana-siddha and ultimately joins Krsna in Goloka. Now, since the nitya-siddhas are eternally situated and NEVER fall/leave the spiritual world, it's the sadhana-siddha that may, through arrangement, come to the material world for a purpose. Maharaja said that the nitya siddhas are thinking, "...oh, how fortunate. We want to be one of them. Look how they cause Krsna to come to them and be a sweeper in their heart."
So, I'm wondering, does this constitute some type of knowledge/awareness between the two types. I'm also confused about this: I've always heard that the jiva is "part and parcel of Krsna", and that we have an eternally perfected form in the spiritual world. How can this be so if one is nitya-baddha and has, with no beginning, been stuck in the material world?
Thanks 
Syamasundara - October 21, 2006 11:07 pm
My two bits (literally):
1st bit. It just so happened that tonight at dinner an old French lady I was sharing the table with (I work in a Club Med village) thought I had one or both parents who were French, because my French was impeccable, but the truth is that I learned it with a book and 7 months at Eurodisney. So, that's the idea that came to my mind when you mentioned the difference between nitya and baddha jivas: different background, same end result.
2nd bit. My understanding is that the nitya-siddha jiva should be seen as a blooming tree, whereas the nitya baddha jiva as a seed. The tree is all there in the seed, but without the good association of water, sunlight, and soil, the seed will always remain encased in the hard and dry shell of its identification.
Gaurangi-priya Devi - October 22, 2006 1:04 pm
So, I'm wondering, does this constitute some type of knowledge/awareness between the two types. I'm also confused about this: I've always heard that the jiva is "part and parcel of Krsna", and that we have an eternally perfected form in the spiritual world. How can this be so if one is nitya-baddha and has, with no beginning, been stuck in the material world?
Thanks
I asked this question of Gurumaharaj awhile ago in a letter and here is part of the response relevatant.
"So the jiva sakti has the potential to experience a relationship with Krsna in connection with the svarupa sakti, being a a partial manifestation of it, whereas the maya-sakti does not, being a distorted manifestation of it. When the jiva-sakti comes in contact with the svarupa-sakti, its dormant potential gradually awakens. This contact with the svarupa-sakti is Krsna extending himself to the jiva as he sees fit, which results in the jiva desiring a particular relationship with him in reciprocation. This relationship is inherent or dormant in the jiva in the same way that the capacity to walk is dormant within an infant. Given the appropriate circumstances and nourishment an infant will eventually walk. Similarly, given the association with and nourishment from Krsna's svarupa-sakti, the jiva will realize its dormant potential to live in love with Krsna.
So it depends how one talks bout it as to exactly where the relationship comes from. It is eternal (krsna prema nitya siddha), and with hearing, chanting, etc. (sravanadi) one's consciousness is purified (suddha citte), and then this relationship begins to manifest (karaye udaya). It is not created by the guru nor by the disciple though his or her practice. It is an eternal reality."
I used to be confused as well about the perfected eternal identity in the spiritual world, like there is this cut out identity we all have in the spiritual world just waiting for us to come fill. But it seems that that relationship is within all souls depending on how Krsna wants to engage in rasa with that soul, and with the proper association and nourishment it becomes manifest.
Swami - October 23, 2006 1:25 pm
The baddha-jiva, through sadhana and mercy, attains the level of sadhana-siddha and ultimately joins Krsna in Goloka. Now, since the nitya-siddhas are eternally situated and NEVER fall/leave the spiritual world, it's the sadhana-siddha that may, through arrangement, come to the material world for a purpose. Maharaja said that the nitya siddhas are thinking, "...oh, how fortunate. We want to be one of them. Look how they cause Krsna to come to them and be a sweeper in their heart."
Sadhana siddhas cannot fall anymore than any other kind of siddha (krpa-sidha, nitya-sidha). No one falls from Vaikuntha other than examples like Jaya Vijaya who come to this world for the purpose of facilitating rasa (in their case vira rasa). The baddha jiva on the other hand is "fallen," and this materially conditioned soul can become a devotee and cause Bhagavan to enter his or her heart as a sweeper. He is so kind.
Regarding the difference between nitya-siddhas and sadhana-siddhas, there is no difference in that they are both siddha. According to BVT, some souls emenating from Maha Visnu go "up" and become nitya siddhas, whereas others go "down" and become nitya-baddhas. These two would be constitutionally the same, either as sadhana or nitya-siddhas. However, there are different kinds of nitya-siddhas, and those constituted of svarupa-sakti like Nanda Maharaja, Subala, Lalita, etc are constitutionally different from those constituted of tatastha-sakti that "originate" in Maha Visnu. Nonetheless, all siddhas are for all intents and purposes equal becasue they function equally, being motivated by pure love under the influece of Bhagavan's svarupa-sakti.
Babhru Das - October 24, 2006 2:24 am
mitham ca saram ca vaco hi vagmitah
Swami, this explanation is clear, concise, and just to the point. Thank you. This point came up this past Saturday at our Nectar of Devotion meeting. I sort of made the same point, but not nearly so well.
This raises another questioni in my mind, though. When some folks argue strongly that Srila Prabhupada is a nitya siddha, not a sadhana siddha (and many of them do so by way of accusing followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja of averring that he is the latter, not the former), descended from Goloka, etc., does it seem that they're asserting that he is svarupa shakti rather than jiva shakti? Would it really matter to his disciples?
Swami - October 24, 2006 4:09 am
mitham ca saram ca vaco hi vagmitah
Swami, this explanation is clear, concise, and just to the point. Thank you. This point came up this past Saturday at our Nectar of Devotion meeting. I sort of made the same point, but not nearly so well.
This raises another questioni in my mind, though. When some folks argue strongly that Srila Prabhupada is a nitya siddha, not a sadhana siddha (and many of them do so by way of accusing followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja of averring that he is the latter, not the former), descended from Goloka, etc., does it seem that they're asserting that he is svarupa shakti rather than jiva shakti? Would it really matter to his disciples?
From what I have seen, I do not think any of them have that clear of an understadning of siddhanta on this point. After all, many of them think that sous fall from Vaikuntha. Furthermore, if they did insist that SP was a parsada constituted of svarupa-sakti, they have absolutely no proof to offer in support of such a claim. To say, "My guru is constituted of svarupa-sakti and has descended from Goloka. Therefore he or she is better than your guru who is constituted of tatastha-sakti and has only recently come under the influence of Bhagavan's svarupa-sakti and attained sadhana-siddhi," is absurd and offensive, even if it could be proved that one's guru was indeed an eternal parsada of Sri Krsna constituted of svarupa-sakti. Moreover, what really matters is not how perfect a student's guru is, but rather how perfect the student is.
And no, it would not matter because when a particle of tatastha-sakti is blessed by Bhagavan's svarupa-sakti it functions just like the svarupa-sakti. Here again we come to the point that siddha is siddha. For that matter is also would not matter if he was a sadhana or nitya-siddha. Such argument arises from among other things a very meager understadning of the nature of spirtual perfection, its rarity, etc.
Maciek Zolkiewski - October 24, 2006 6:13 am
According to BVT, some souls emenating from Maha Visnu go "up" and become nitya siddhas, whereas others go "down" and become nitya-baddhas.
What determines which souls are going "up" and which are going "down"?
Swami - October 25, 2006 3:51 am
What determines which souls are going "up" and which are going "down"?
This is a good question. BVT answers in two ways: the jiva's free will and the will of Bhagavan. However, under scrutiny the first answer seems less satisfactory. For example, such a jiva's choice would be based on incomplete information (a partial view of either direction). With only partial information as to the nature of either direction, one's exercise of free will is one that is not well informed. Thus how much can it really be an exercise of free will?
The second answer is more satisfying, although only with regard to those who go "down." They facilitate Maha Visnu's sristi-lila. Afer all, nitya-siddha jivas are also manifest from Sesa in Vaikunthna and Balarama in Vrakaloka for the sake of these lilas. So there is no need for them to come from Mahavisnu.
Incidentally, I have not seen this explanation of nitya-siddha jivas coming from Maha Visnu anywhere other than in the writing of BVT, who was perhaps the first to try to explain the position of the nitya-baddha jivas to the modern world and in doing so shift any blame for the suffering of the jivas away from Bhagavan.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - October 25, 2006 7:57 pm
Is there any difference between jiva-shakti emanating from Sesa, Balarama and Mahavisnu because there is a difference between forms of Bhagavan? As a part and parcel each might have a specific "flavour" or task to perform depending on its source? Just wondering.
Swami - October 29, 2006 3:54 pm
Is there any difference between jiva-shakti emanating from Sesa, Balarama and Mahavisnu because there is a difference between forms of Bhagavan? As a part and parcel each might have a specific "flavour" or task to perform depending on its source? Just wondering.
The differnece is that those emanating from Balarama are suited for lila in Vrajaloka, whereas those emanating from Sesa are suited for lila in Vaikuntha. As for those emanating from Mahavisnu, they are suited for the srsti lila, a large part of which includes the opportunity for Bhagavan to offer salvation (Vaikuntha), and in the case of Mahaprabhu, the highest prema.