Tattva-viveka

Jehovah's Witnesses

Robertnewman - November 20, 2006 1:16 am

The Jehovah's Witnesses are one of the more active Christian sects in the preaching arena, famous for distributing literature door-to-door. Earlier today I found one of their leaflets on the ground near my house, and out of curiosity I picked it up and read it. It occurred to me then that discussion of such things could be useful to vivekies, so with Swami's approval this new forum has been created. To kick it off, I would like to post most of the text of the leaflet that I found. It's a bit long, but I found it quite fascinating.

The End of False Religion is Near!

What is false religion? Are you distressed about crimes committed in the name of religion? Do the warfare, terrorism, and corruption perpetrated by those who claim to serve God offend your sense of justice? Why does religion seem to be at the root of so many problems?

The fault lies, not with all religion, but with false religion. A widely respected religious figure, Jesus Christ, indicated that false religion produces bad works, just as a "rotten tree produces worthless fruit." (Matthew 7:15-17) What fruit does false religion yield?

False Religion...

Meddles in War and Politics: "Across Asia and beyond," says the journal Asiaweek, "power-hungry leaders are cynically manipulating people's religious sentiments for their own needs." As a result, the journal warns: "The world threatens to sink into madness." A prominent religious leader in the United States declared: "You've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops." His solution? "Blow them all away in the name of the Lord." By contrast, the Bible says: "If anyone makes the statement 'I love God,' and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar." (1 John 4:20) Jesus even said: "Continue to love your enemies." (Matthew 5:44) How many religions can you think of whose members engage in war?
Spreads False Doctrine: Most religions teach that the soul or spirit is some invisible part of a human that survives the death of the physical body. By means of this teaching, many of these religions exploit their members, charging money to pray for departed souls. However, the Bible teaches a different doctrine. "The soul that is sinning--it itself will die." (Ezekiel 18:4) "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Jesus taught that the dead will be resurrected--an unnecessary action if humans had an immortal soul. (John 11:11-25) Does your religion teach that the soul does not die?
Tolerates Immoral Sex: In Western lands, church groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same-sex marriages. Even churches that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children. What, though, does the Bible teach? It plainly states: "Do not be mesled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men...will inherit God's kingdom." (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Do you know of religions that condone immoral sex?

What does the future hold for religions that produce rotten fruit? Jesus warned: "Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 7:19) Yes, false religion will be chopped down and destroyed! But how and when will this happen? A prophetic vision recorded in the Bible book of Revelation, chapters 17 and 18, provides the answer.

How will false religion end?

Picture the scene. A harlot is sitting on the back of a fearsome beast. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:1-4) Whom does the harlot represent? She exerts influence "over the kings of the earth." She dresses in purple, uses incense, and is exceedingly wealthy. In addition, by means of her spiritistic practice, 'all the nations are misled.' (Revelation 17:18; 18:12, 13, 23) The Bible helps us to see that this harlot is a worldwide religious entity. She depicts, not any one religion, but all religions that produce rotten fruit.

The beast that the harlot rides pictures the world's political powers. (Revelation 17:10-13) False religion straddles the back of this political beast, attempting to influence its decisions and to control its direction.

Soon, though, an amazing event will take place. "The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire." (Revelation 17:16) In a sudden, shocking move, the world's political powers will turn on false religion and completely destroy her! What will prompt this action? The Bible book of Revelation answers: "God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought." (Reveleation 17:17) Yes, God will call false religion to account for all the despicable acts she has committed in his name. In a stroke of perfect justice, he will use her political paramours as his instrument of execution.

What must you do if you do not want to share the fate of false religion? "Get out of her, my people," urges God's messenger. (Revelation 18:4) Indeed, now is the time to flee from false religion! But to where can you flee? Not into atheism, since its future is also bleak. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) The only haven is within true religion. How can you identify true religion?

How to identify true religion

What good fruit should true religion produce?--Matthew 7:17.

True Religion...[/size][/size]

Practices Love: True worshippers are "no part of the world," are not divided by race or culture, and display 'love among themselves.' (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.--1 John 3:16.
Trusts God's Word: Instead of teaching "tradition" and "commands of men as doctrines," true religion bases its doctrine on God's Word, the Bible. (Matthew 15:6-9) Why? Because "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight."--2 Timothy 3:16.
Strengthens families and upholds high moral standards: True religion trains husbands to 'love their wives as their own bodies,' helps wives to develop 'deep respect for their husbands,' and teaches children to 'be obedient to their parents.' (Ephesians 5:28, 33; 6:1) In addition, those entrusted with positions of authority must have exemplary morals.--1 Timothy 3:1-10.

Does any religion meet these standards? The book Holocaust Politics, published in 2001, says: "If more people practiced versions of what the Jehovah's Witnesses preach and practice, the Holocaust could have been prevented and genocide would scourge the world no more."

Indeed, in 235 lands, Jehovah's Witnesses do not just preach the Bible's moral standards--they live by them. We urge you to ask Jehovah's Witnesses to help you learn what God requires of you so that you can worship him acceptably. Now is the time to act. Do not delay. The end of false religion is near!--Zephaniah 2:2, 3.

Citta Hari Dasa - November 20, 2006 2:46 am

We had a couple of them visit us and leave one of those very leaflets with us. We read it over tea in the evenings for laughs. No doubt we, with our belief in an eternal soul and idol worship, are victims of the worst kind of false religion in the minds of the Witnesses. Of course, in the Bhagavata philosophy their belief that the body and soul are one and the same is abjectly materialistic and constitutes false religion. Fortunately for us there is a huge corpus of literary description of the realizaitons of great sages and bhaktas to lend support to this idea, while the Christian faith is pretty much devoid of any developed metaphysical system.

Jason - November 20, 2006 3:08 am

I work with a Jehovah's Witness, and to be honest, she's a really sweet lady. We've had many discussions in the past and have agreed to disagree. Not too long ago we somehow started talking about the idea of heaven. Witnesses believe that only 144,000 persons will go to "heaven". These persons have been predetermined and apparently, they, at some point, become divinely aware that they are one of the 144,000. My co-worker is aware that she isn't one of them. The others, when they die, will remain completely "unconscious" and lay in the ground until Christ comes to usher in the new "heaven on earth". At this point, they will be resurected with new, "perfect" bodies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehova%27s_Witnesses

They [Witnesses] are heavily present at various BART stations across the bay area. Interestingly, they tend not to approach or proselytize, unless you strike up the conversation....I've been accosted by other Christian groups; the Witnesses seem tame.

Citta Hari Dasa - November 20, 2006 3:33 am

So for those who are not one of the 144,000, it begs the question--what happens to them? A very strange idea to me, indeed.

Robertnewman - November 20, 2006 4:28 am

Fortunately for us there is a huge corpus of literary description of the realizations of great sages and bhaktas to lend support to this idea, while the Christian faith is pretty much devoid of any developed metaphysical system.

Actually most Christians do believe in the eternality of the soul, at least in the forward direction. That is, although they believe the soul comes into existence at the point of conception, it is thereafter immortal. And the Catholics in particular most definitely have a highly developed metaphysical system and theology, which of course differs from ours on many points. But such knowledge is pretty much confined to priests and monks; most lay Christians know virtually nothing about their religion.

What I found most interesting about this presentation is the belief, based on an interpretation of the Book of Revelation, that God will (presumably in the near future) eliminate false religion from the world. In particular, he will do so in a "sudden, shocking move". The apocalyptic theme was present in Christianity from the very beginning (the early Christians expected the Second Coming and Final Judgment in their lifetimes), and it's apparently alive and well two millenia later.

Swami - November 20, 2006 4:31 am

I had nice but brief conversation with the older couple who recently visited us. I explained how Prabhupada, in search of information about the West and ideas as to how to preach there, often found the Wittness's pamphlets in tea shops and drew inspiration and information from them. They were charmed to learn this. They seemed Heaven bound, at least in their minds.

Vinode Vani Dasa - November 20, 2006 4:35 am

A strange first choice for interfaith discussion. Jehovah's Witnesses are a pretty marginal Christian sect, and I think the text that Robert Newman posted shows that this is for good reason. They seem like they're one step away from thinking that a spaceship is going to beam them back to their home planet. Perhaps I'm being unfair--I don't know a lot about them. Perhaps we can direct this forum in such a way where the goal is to understand as much about the faith under discussion as possible, in which case I suggest that we focus on religions that have well thought out, reasonable, and compex theologies or metaphysics. (By the way, Citta Hari, I disagree with you that Christianity--especially Catholicism--is lacking in these areas. A millenium of scholastic research, interpretation, and criticism have contributed to some fairly profound Christian doctrines.)

Vivek - November 20, 2006 4:42 am

So for those who are not one of the 144,000, it begs the question--what happens to them? A very strange idea to me, indeed.

It is an easy thing for the scientists to defeat them . The problem is the everybody things that there scripture is the only true scripture.

Vivek - November 20, 2006 5:14 am

I meant everybody things their book is the ultimate knowledge. Christian philosophers have also gone deep in metaphysics like vinoda vani prabhu said. But some of the aspects of it, like animals have no souls is kind of hard to believe. Also there was a time when some churches believed that woman didnt have souls(correct me i am wrong).

Early christian philosphers like Origen look closer to eastern philosophy and i think reincarnation has been taken out of christian faith in 6th century AD .(just correct me if i am wrong) I had some links for your interest.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen08.html

Bhrigu - November 20, 2006 10:31 am

I actually think the Witnesses are a rather good group to start with, since everybody has some experience with them. Mine are predominantly positive. Of course, I do not agree with very much in their theology, but they are generally nice and sincere people, and I admire their dedication and determination. Everyone who has tried knows that going door to door is not an easy task, and it becomes even more so when you have a rep. as bad as theirs.

They of course consider themselves the only real Christians, but from the point of view of everybody else, they aren't really Christians, since they reject the doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. Theologically, they are much closer to Judaism or Islam than Christianity.

Also there was a time when some churches believed that woman didnt have souls(correct me i am wrong).
Early christian philosphers like Origen look closer to eastern philosophy and i think reincarnation has been taken out of christian faith in 6th century AD .(just correct me if i am wrong)

I'm afraid that you are wrong on both accounts, Vivek Prabhu. These are common myths about Christianity, but neither is true. Origen did not teach reincarnation. He thought that the soul has a prior existence before birth, and that was one reason for why he (amongst many others) was declared anathema at the Second Council at Constantinople in 553. You can read more about him for example on Wikipedia, including a short passage about his supposed belief in reincarnation.

Vivek - November 20, 2006 3:24 pm

I actually think the Witnesses are a rather good group to start with, since everybody has some experience with them. Mine are predominantly positive. Of course, I do not agree with very much in their theology, but they are generally nice and sincere people, and I admire their dedication and determination. Everyone who has tried knows that going door to door is not an easy task, and it becomes even more so when you have a rep. as bad as theirs.

They of course consider themselves the only real Christians, but from the point of view of everybody else, they aren't really Christians, since they reject the doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. Theologically, they are much closer to Judaism or Islam than Christianity.

I'm afraid that you are wrong on both accounts, Vivek Prabhu. These are common myths about Christianity, but neither is true. Origen did not teach reincarnation. He thought that the soul has a prior existence before birth, and that was one reason for why he (amongst many others) was declared anathema at the Second Council at Constantinople in 553. You can read more about him for example on Wikipedia, including a short passage about his supposed belief in reincarnation.

Bhrigu prabhu, as far as my research goes reincarnation has been taught by ORIGEN and if that is a myth then a lot of scholar christians have considered that myth. You can never be certain that reincarnation is not there with ORIGEN. Wikipidea is not a great source as they have published many things without researching the correctness of information. I myself have posted one thing(in aerospace) in wikipidea which is there and i know i was not even sure about its correctness. If you research origen very well, you will find references to reincarnation and lot of the things have been purged during oppressive roman kings after 6th century

And some churches did believe that woman didnt have souls atleast in US in 17th century(you can research that it is well documented and it is one of the issues raised in feminist movement meetings even now). I think this issue as the dating of puranas so we cant totally dismiss reincarnation not being part of christianity as christians themselves have been researching on it. According to Franscisian order some scholars do claim that St Francis of Accissi kept his belief in reincarnation secret, and that is the reason he claimed love for all animals.

Sorry for being offensive bhrigu prabhu, but i was saying it was not a black and white answer it may or may not be true.

Madangopal - November 20, 2006 6:23 pm

The apocalyptic theme was present in Christianity from the very beginning (the early Christians expected the Second Coming and Final Judgment in their lifetimes), and it's apparently alive and well two millenia later.

In my undergrad courses I read some great books about this. I would particularly recommend the works of a scholar from UNC, Bart Ehrman. He has a great book called Jesus: Apocalyptic prophet of the new millenium wherein he discusses the importance of seeing Jesus in his context. He was a jew, and a prophet who held an apocalyptic view of the world. This was very common for Jewish prophets (street preachers) during the time. Yes, the early Christians all held the idea that the world was on its way out very soon, say the next 30 or 40 years. It is interesting that so many christian sects still hold this apocalyptic view, though the world continues on... I remember when I was growing up there was one church that every year or two knew exactly when the world was going to end and they would all go to the top of some mountain and wait for that date. I would think that idea would die out since the world didn't!

Ehrman has other great books on the development of Christianity (Lost Christianities and Misquoting Jesus) that I think any of you interested in the study of Christianity would really appreciate.

Bhrigu - November 20, 2006 7:22 pm

Sorry for being offensive bhrigu prabhu, but i was saying it was not a black and white answer it may or may not be true.

No offense at all taken, Vivek Prabhu, and I agree that Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable source. I wasn't basing my statement on them alone, but since I saw that their article on Origen was for the most part quite good, I referred to it.

That Origen and early Christianity taught reincarnation but that the evil Roman emperors forcibly suppressed it is a widespread myth (especially in the New Age community), but it is a myth nevertheless. There really is no support for it. As Madangopal pointed out, Christianity grew out of Judaism, and should be seen in that context.

Most of Origen's work have been lost, but from what we have it is clear that he taught (influenced by neo-Platonic thinkers) that the souls have an existence before birth, but that he expressly denied metempsychosis or reincarnation. His reason for teaching the pre-existence of souls was to refute other, unsatisfactory Christian answers to the origin of the souls, not to introduce reincarnation, a doctrine that really does not fit into the Christian religion at all. Just consider the "resurrection of the body" that all Christian churces agree on being a basic dogma.

If you want facts on Origen, the classic text is Jean Daniélou's Origen (New York, 1955). Otherwise, the Encyclopedia of Religion (ed. Mircea Eliade) has a good entry on him as well.

As far as "women have no soul taught in Christianity" that is another widespread myth, this time among feminists. Of course, I cannot vouch for what every Christian denomination has taught, but at least that has never been an issue in any of the large churches.

Hari Bhakti - November 20, 2006 9:50 pm

Well there must be a mass preaching effort going on with the Witnesses -- I too just received this pamphlet from a woman going door to door in my neighborhood (in Portland, OR). She had a different approach than other Witnesses I have interacted with, she was dressed nicely, had a smile, complimented our home and offered the pamphlet and said she hoped I had a nice day. I appreciated her non-confrontational mood, despite the message of the pamphlet. I read the pamphlet and it was a bit jarring... the image of the harlot looked strikingly similar to images of Durga -- which gave me a little to chuckle about. Overall it honestly made me think a bit about the profound nature of faith, that without having had this interaction I may not have thought about that day. I appreciate their preaching efforts, it is really tremendous how effectively they get out their message; they must have some amazing project managers amongst them.

Instead of demonizing other faiths I hope that this new topic group will be a place where we can learn how to be better representatives of our own faith.

Vivek - November 20, 2006 10:13 pm

Thanks for the reply bhrigu prabhu. But is the research done by many notable christians about existence of reincarnation completly baseless. I agree in the current context of the philosophy of resurrection of body reincarnation is not compatible but there is substantial evidence to suggest distortion in history. Also the book by "Holger Kersten" on jesus came to india did suggest something about his life though i am not at all sure about its authencity either. I was just wondering how you were so confident about no interaction with reincarnation in christianity. Atleast we can be open minded. I myself need to get hold of more writing to get a lot of viewpoints though most probably there is no final conclusion you can draw with the amount of filtering done by christians. It is similar to the number of editions of bhavisya purana in the market by now.

What i meant was objective historians are still researching early christianity, so to make sweeping statements about its development will be counterproductive .

I think the book where hayagriva prabhu and syamsundar prabhu have written about origen and their conversation with prabhupada they have then presented completly worng facts about origen. I dont know if they will make such an error. Anyway my knowlege in this area is not conclusive and i have read about orgine's belief in reincarnation being a myth but there are others who counter the myth.

Philip Breakenridge - November 21, 2006 3:34 am

I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses during my teens and, while I don't mean to disrespect another path, I now view the group as a fundamentalist cult. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they alone have divine truth and that God will destroy everyone who dares to disagree with their literal interpretation of the Bible. While part of the group, I was forbidden to read other religious material or attend services anywhere else. They manipulate their members by using fear and indoctrination, labeling all other paths as false and under the direct control of Satan. If the Jehovah's Witnesses at your door are nice to you, it's only because they pity you as someone who is misled and on the road to eternal destruction. There can be no true interfaith dialogue with this group, as its members will never acknowledge the existence of truth in any other path but theirs.

As evidenced by the sample Robert included in his original post, this group's literature is highly offensive. It promotes homophobia, bigotry, gender bias, sexism, and religious intolerance. All in the name of Jehovah, God of the Old Testament.

The next time Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door, save your time and energy. Politely send them on their way.

Gopisvara Dasa - November 21, 2006 5:39 am

If we can establish definitively(and I'm not sure we can) that reincarnation is not a part of Christian theology,then what conclusion should we come to? Is it a false religion? I don't think so.Neither did Prabhupada or Bhaktivinode Thakur. Is there some other explanation?

Vamsidhari Dasa - November 21, 2006 6:36 am

As evidenced by the sample Robert included in his original post, this group's literature is highly offensive. It promotes homophobia, bigotry, gender bias, sexism, and religious intolerance. All in the name of Jehovah, God of the Old Testament.

The next time Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door, save your time and energy. Politely send them on their way.

Dont we have enuoght problems with the above mentioned characteristics within our own tradition, now we need to bring the JW in it? I do not think that JWs are good people because they think that they are better then the rest of us. Any group that advocates, hate and stigmatises other groups as satanic has nothing to do with faith or God, in my view. I believe that we should distance ourselves from groups like these as far as we can.

I apologize for being too blunt but I was hoping that the intefaith discussion would be more about faith than dogma, prejudice, and hate. Interfaith discussion should be about what we have in common as people of faith I would hope that we do not have much in common with these people and here I am expousing my own prejudice.

In my limited knowledge there are mystics in all religions, christian, jewish, muslim, etc and not only in our tradition even though we might be partial and drawn to it. If we are asking a question about which is a true religion we should ask from who's point of view? What does make a religion? A set of bliefs? Code of conduct? Where do we locate the source of our religion if it is not in our sentiment of faith? And where does the faith come from? Faith is common in all religions and as such how can we determine the quality of faith or someone who is of different religion? How does our specilized knowledge about the spiritual life prevents us from understanding others of different texture of faith?

I really wanted to echo Vinode-Vani's request to stear this discussion into a more useful direction where we can debate and learn.

Bhrigu - November 21, 2006 8:08 am

If we can establish definitively(and I'm not sure we can) that reincarnation is not a part of Christian theology,then what conclusion should we come to? Is it a false religion? I don't think so.Neither did Prabhupada or Bhaktivinode Thakur. Is there some other explanation?

I haven't seen any serious academic studies advocating that reincarnation has ever been part of Christianity. I have read one book by Holger Kersten (Jesus Went to India). It was very interesting and fun to read, but I cannot take it seriously because of too many scholarly problems to mention, the main one being a complete lack of source criticism. Nobody in the academic community takes it seriously, and they are not at all always Christians.

But just because Christianity does not teach reincarnation, does it have to be a false religion? I really see no reason for that. Why not just incomplete? How important is belief in reincarnation anyway? Many people in the West who believe in reincarnation are not at all very God-conscious. For us it is a given truth, but a belief in only one life could arguably even be more effective from the standpoint of sharanagati.

Robertnewman - November 21, 2006 8:42 am

But just because Christianity does not teach reincarnation, does it have to be a false religion? I really see no reason for that. Why not just incomplete? How important is belief in reincarnation anyway? Many people in the West who believe in reincarnation are not at all very God-conscious. For us it is a given truth, but a belief in only one life could arguably even be more effective from the standpoint of sharanagati.

The Catholic belief is that the soul has three possible destinations after death. Those who are in a perfect state of grace (what we would call pure devotees) are transferred directly to the Kingdom of God. Those of sincere faith who still have sinful propensities go to Purgatory, a plane of existence where these impurities are eliminated through intense suffering, after which they too enter the Kingdom. Finally, those who deny and/or defy God up to the end of their lives become permanent residents of Hell.

Audarya-lila Dasa - November 21, 2006 3:07 pm

I am afraid that the interfaith topics discussions that will go on here are hopelessly flawed in that there will be no person of any other faith to represent their views. Maybe we could all seek out writings from a particular faith to present here as Robert has done with the Jehovah's witness's - still, it will be too easy to miscontrue what is said and pick apart any writing when the writer isn't present to expand upon his/her theme and explain things in more depth as questions arise in this sanga.

Vinode Vani Dasa - November 21, 2006 3:12 pm

I am afraid that the interfaith topics discussions that will go on here are hopelessly flawed in that there will be no person of any other faith to represent their views. Maybe we could all seek out writings from a particular faith to present here as Robert has done with the Jehovah's witness's - still, it will be too easy to miscontrue what is said and pick apart any writing when the writer isn't present to expand upon his/her theme and explain things in more depth as questions arise in this sanga.

That's exactly the dilemma I was considering. Perhaps we could invite persons from different faiths to come here and represent their points of view?

Robertnewman - November 21, 2006 3:49 pm

I am afraid that the interfaith topics discussions that will go on here are hopelessly flawed in that there will be no person of any other faith to represent their views.

I think "hopelessly flawed" is far too strong an expression in this case. It is evident that several members of this group have considerable knowledge of Christianity, more than the vast majority of Christians. True, there is no expert here who could immediately provide definitive answers to any question, but that does not mean we can't have useful discussions and learn a great deal from each other.

Perhaps we could invite persons from different faiths to come here and represent their points of view?

That could be useful in this particular forum, but I believe it would be disruptive to the overall ethos of Tattva-viveka, as a forum for the friends and disciples of Swami Tripurari. A bit of a Catch-22. Still, there is much to be gained from the attempt, one-sided though it may be, to appreciate and contrast the ideas of other traditions with our own, and that was the idea I had in mind for this forum.

Bhrigu - November 21, 2006 3:54 pm

I agree with Robert. Of course, it is not the same as "real" interfaith discussions, but I also think that we can learn in this way. Take the JW, for example. Our theology is vastly different from theirs, and I don't think anyone is suggesting we align ourselves with them (don't worry, Vamsi, they wouldn't want to do so with us either! ) , but we may still have something to learn from them. They are, after all, one of the fastest growing religions in the world, so they must be doing something right.

Philip Breakenridge - November 21, 2006 5:24 pm

... we may still have something to learn from them. They are, after all, one of the fastest growing religions in the world, so they must be doing something right.

While I admire your open-mindedness, Bhrigu, I'd have to disagree. Jehovah's Witnesses have created a belief system that appeals to the uneducated and bigoted. It's actually quite disturbing that their membership is growing. The promotion of oppressive, ultra-conservative ideals is not something true spiritualists should seek to emulate.

Bhrigu - November 21, 2006 5:34 pm

Jehovah's Witnesses have created a belief system that appeals to the uneducated and bigoted. It's actually quite disturbing that their membership is growing.

Since you have first-hand experience with the JW, Philip, I accept what you say. My experience with them comes only from texts and very superfluous personal contacts.

By the way, what decision did you come to re. the tattoos?

Audarya-lila Dasa - November 21, 2006 6:01 pm

Perhaps one thing that can be learned from fast growing 'religious movements' such as Islam and the JW's is that people gravitate toward absolutes and that many people find comfort in feeling like they have 'all the answers'. This is a sort of fundamentalist outlook on things in terms of us and them and it is growing at an alarming rate judging by the growth numbers of Islam, JW's, evangelical Christians etc. Maybe Vamsi could chime in on this, but it seems that it is some innate psychological need of many people that drives them to extreme beliefs that place them 'above' others who don't hold the same belief. This has been exploited throughout history by those who have recognized it and used it to 'harness' the masses.

I agree that there may be some value to comparing and contrasting our theology and presentation of such to the public with the theology and presentation of other groups and traditions. I will, however, remain skeptical that devotees are more knowledgeable and can represent these other traditions better than 'the vast majority' of their members.

Robertnewman - November 21, 2006 6:05 pm

Jehovah's Witnesses have created a belief system that appeals to the uneducated and bigoted.

There are elements in all belief systems that appeal to the uneducated and bigoted. I include Gaudiya Vaisnavism in that assessment (browse an ISKCON chat group some time if you doubt this). There are also elements that appeal to the opposite sector, such as the following (from the Jehovah's Witnesses leaflet):

"True worshippers are 'no part of the world,' are not divided by race or culture, and display 'love among themselves.' Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another."

A nice description of the Audarya community, I would say.

The point is we couldn't even discuss our own tradition without being willing and able to sift the wheat from the chaff, what to speak of any sort of interfaith discussion. I firmly believe that we have something to learn from other traditions, even those whose impurities are as glaring as those of the Jehovah's Witnesses. To dismiss any religious group out of hand as useless is precisely bigotry.

Philip Breakenridge - November 21, 2006 6:06 pm

By the way, what decision did you come to re. the tattoos?

LOL... Yes, thank you for all your input on that most lively topic. In order not to risk being too offensive, I'm considering getting the word "ahimsa" in Sanskrit tattooed on my right forearm instead of Ganesha or Gaura-Nitai. I thought that would be especially appropriate since I've been vegetarian for nine years and that's the hand I eat with.

Philip Breakenridge - November 21, 2006 6:47 pm

There are elements in all belief systems that appeal to the uneducated and bigoted. I include Gaudiya Vaisnavism in that assessment (browse an ISKCON chat group some time if you doubt this).

Good point, Robert. That's why I have very little to do with ISKCON and have chosen a non-ISKCON teacher.

There are also elements that appeal to the opposite sector, such as the following (from the Jehovah's Witnesses leaflet):

"True worshippers are 'no part of the world,' are not divided by race or culture, and display 'love among themselves.' Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another."

A nice description of the Audarya community, I would say.

Swami has created the Audarya community in a spirit of inclusiveness. JWs have created their community by excluding all those who refuse to buy into their fundamentalist dogma.

To dismiss any religious group out of hand as useless is precisely bigotry.

The members of my JWs congregation were very kind to me until i embraced my sexual orientation and began thinking for myself. After that, I was shunned by every single one of my former 'friends' and told I was an "enemy of God." As someone striving to follow a spiritual path, it is my responsibility to speak out against this kind of bigotry. I apologize if my views come off as dismissive.

Why not create an interfaith dialogue with a Christian group such as the United Methodist Church? For the past several years, this denomination has made it its mission to reach out to women, gays, and all others maligned by the Christian church throughout history.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - November 21, 2006 6:54 pm

Jehovah's Witnesses have created a belief system that appeals to the uneducated and bigoted. It's actually quite disturbing that their membership is growing.

Hmmm, I think it’s not a good idea to judge other paths. It might suggest that our path is superior. All religious movements deserve respect, yes, we found our ideal, but they did as well. Faith and devotion come in different flavors, not just dressed in saffron.

Philip Breakenridge - November 21, 2006 8:29 pm

Hmmm, I think it’s not a good idea to judge other paths. It might suggest that our path is superior. All religious movements deserve respect, yes, we found our ideal, but they did as well. Faith and devotion come in different flavors, not just dressed in saffron.

I embrace all paths that are inclusive and promote love and respect. I will speak out against, however, any organization that uses Scripture to instill fear in its members, demonize those who believe differently, or justify bigotry or prejudice of any kind.

Believe me, I speak from extensive personal experience on this one.

Robertnewman - November 21, 2006 9:03 pm

I had hoped that we could focus the discussions in this forum on the ideas promoted by the various traditions, rather than the behavior of individual adherents or organizations. Prabhupada often said that his intent was not to turn Christians into Hindus, but to make them better Christians. In my opinion, the ideal result of interfaith dialog is that both of the participants become better practitioners on their individual paths, not that one is converted over to the other or succeeds in demonizing the other. When we find something we consider good in the views of, say, the Jehovah's Witnesses, we can express our appreciation, and show them how our own tradition has a teaching which supports or expands upon theirs. When we find something we consider bad, we can point out the contrast in our viewpoints and invite polite discussion. Of course, some people will be unwilling or unable to relate to us on that level, and we are justified in neglecting such people. Discrimination is needed, but it must cut both ways. In spite of their some of their beliefs, I'm sure that some people who identify themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses are more godly than many who identify themselves as Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

Gopisvara Dasa - November 21, 2006 11:21 pm

Good answer.Thank you.

but it seems that it is some innate psychological need of many people that drives them to extreme beliefs that place them 'above' others who don't hold the same belief. (Audarya Lila)

False ego and fear,the opposite of which is serving ego and love.

Hmmm, I think it’s not a good idea to judge other paths.(Nanda Tanuja)

Yes,judge not lest ye be judged.Everyone is doing the best they can with the knowledge they have.Better to give them more knowledge in a non-judgemental way.Suspending judgement is beneficial in itself in that it softens the heart and makes one more thoughtful.

Philip Breakenridge - November 21, 2006 11:37 pm

I had hoped that we could focus the discussions in this forum on the ideas promoted by the various traditions, rather than the behavior of individual adherents or organizations.

It is the ideas held by JWs (e.g. God will destroy all homosexuals at Armageddon, women should be submissive to men, all other religions are false, etc.) that motivate their behavior. It probably is a good idea to discuss these ideas and expose their absurdity.

When we find something we consider good in the views of, say, the Jehovah's Witnesses, we can express our appreciation, and show them how our own tradition has a teaching which supports or expands upon theirs. When we find something we consider bad, we can point out the contrast in our viewpoints and invite polite discussion.

Robert, I think your motives are really noble here and your tolerant attitude is very inspiring, but this kind of exchange will not work with JWs. They believe that they belong to the 'one true religion.' Everyone who is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses will be annihilated by God.

In spite of their some of their beliefs, I'm sure that some people who identify themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses are more godly than many who identify themselves as Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

Many Jehovah's Witnesses are kind, honest, and devout people, no doubt. But, in my opinion, holding on to beliefs that condemn others to death beause of their sexual orientation or chosen spiritual path isn't a trait of the godly. Perhaps it is a step toward a higher path, though.

Vamsidhari Dasa - November 22, 2006 1:20 am

I think that it is very good to a priori dismiss JW, and other extremist fundamentalist groups. After all most of us here have taken rafuge in Guru Maharaja to excape such groups. I do not belive we have anything to learn from them if not how exactly not to be. So I am all for bigorty, judgement and intollerance back at them. please lets not call this faith in the name of tollerance it is an offense to the faitfull. We have to be intollerant of such views.

I did want to quickly comment on Audarya-lila's post. I do share the same concerns about the nature of this inter-faith discussion done by intra-faith people. Bringing examples of what we like or find useful in other traditions and how we might be able to apply that in our lives (while still be careful not to burn in hell for it) might be one way to go. Perhaps, that was the original idea althoughg I am not privy to it.

And yes, most people chose spiritual paths and political beliefs that are akin to their emotional life. The most disturbed people gravitate towards the most fundamentalist religions an d extremist views (i.e. either you are with us or you are wit the devil) because it confirms their view of the world. Extremist views are present in all religions so we have pockets of "crazies" everywhere. Even in the most overtly peaceful and non violent traditions people manage to project their emotions to the philosofy. If one feels so bad inside that badness in unbarable and it is projected out so that one has a semblance of "good within" and "bad" outside. That primitive defense mechanism creates a false sense of safetly and maintains emotional integrity. But it is very unstable because it is constantly challenged by the reality, which in its nature is quite indifferent. So the mechanism of projection and intojection has to be employed more and more to the point that it creates and promote madness. Saints who tell you that you are a devil unless you adopt their views are no saints at all, they just play one on TV.

Another example could be someome who has an obsessie compulsive way of dealing with the world, finding solace in rules and regulations and mistaking that for faith. We all project ourselves in the things we like or do to a certain extent, but something becomes psychopathological when it is rigid, unchangable, and persued despite bad cosequences (to self or others) and at the expense of distortion of reality.

End lecture :Nerd: thank you.

Jason - November 22, 2006 1:39 am

The point is we couldn't even discuss our own tradition without being willing and able to sift the wheat from the chaff, what to speak of any sort of interfaith discussion. I firmly believe that we have something to learn from other traditions, even those whose impurities are as glaring as those of the Jehovah's Witnesses. To dismiss any religious group out of hand as useless is precisely bigotry.

I second that. Perhaps "interfaith discussions" wouldn't be the term to use, since as Robert pointed out, it may be an overall disturbance to the students here to invite others to participate, but clearly there can and should be some interfaith analysis amongst ourselves since I think we can all benefit by closely looking at other traditions; if only to strengthen faith in our own. I like the idea of this forum a lot.

I do not belive we have anything to learn from them if not how exactly not to be. So I am all for bigorty, judgement and intollerance back at them.

Wow....really? Hmmmm????? :Nerd:

In order not to risk being too offensive, I'm considering getting the word "ahimsa" in Sanskrit tattooed on my right forearm instead of Ganesha or Gaura-Nitai.

Nice. I got "ahimsa" on the inside of my lip....now that's tough!

Citta Hari Dasa - November 23, 2006 12:18 am

Nice. I got "ahimsa" on the inside of my lip....now that's tough! smile.gif

Seems to me like you might want to extend the idea of ahimsa to yourself--on the inside of your lip? Ouch!

Jason - November 23, 2006 3:50 am

Seems to me like you might want to extend the idea of ahimsa to yourself--on the inside of your lip? Ouch!

Not so bad....healed by the time I got home!

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - November 24, 2006 4:32 pm

I do not belive we have anything to learn from them if not how exactly not to be. So I am all for bigorty, judgement and intollerance back at them. please lets not call this faith in the name of tollerance it is an offense to the faitfull. We have to be intollerant of such views.

I absolutely disagree. You can learn from anyone. If organization is fundamentalist doesn’t mean their ideal is, look at ISKCON for example. I think it’s beneficial to see similarities between paths not dwell on differences. I have a strong belief that all paths are instruments which designed to play a musical piece -- glorification of God. Dwelling on differences, poking with sticks and coming to gates with torches will not get you far, especially in interfaith discussion. I don’t believe that you are that bloodthirsty, Vamsi. So, what’s really up?

Robertnewman - November 28, 2006 1:23 pm

Here's a quote that seems appropriate to this discussion, from chapter 8 of Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma:

"Actually, there is no dharma other than vaisnava-dharma. All other religions propagated in the world, including those to be propagated in future years, factually comprise different steps upon the ascension to vaisnava-dharma, or alternatively they are deviations from the essential vaisnava-dharma. When another religion complements vaisnava-dharma, the devotee should respect that religion in accordance with its degree of purity. Thus, the folowers of those religions, which actually constitute different stages on the path to pure vaisnava-dharma, must be accorded proper appreciation and respect. And, on the other hand, whilst dealing with groups that have deviated from pure vaisnava-dharma, one must never bear malice but engage oneself in the culture of one's own devotional truth. Thus, devotees should never be hateful and show intolerance towards other religious practices. When the auspicious moment comes in a person's life, he will easily embrace pure vaisnava-dharma, of this there is no doubt."