Tattva-viveka
Raganuga and Vaidhi bhakti
Swami - December 3, 2006 12:21 pm
Vrindaranya has been giving weekly classes from Aesthetic Vedanta here and over the last few weeks and detailed discussion of raganuga and vaidhi bhakti has taken place. I would like to see that all of my students develop a good understanding of these terms.
Let's start here. What is the difference between vaidhi bhakti and raganuga bhakti?
Bhrigu - December 3, 2006 1:08 pm
A hint for where to begin: all of these terms (including sanga-siddha bhakti etc.) are explained in The Little Book of Bhakti Yoga. 
Swami - December 3, 2006 1:38 pm
A hint for where to begin: all of these terms (including sanga-siddha bhakti etc.) are explained in The Little Book of Bhakti Yoga.
That's a good starting point. If someone could post the definitions from the books on both threads we could go from there. Not that the book is not complete, but there is always more to be said. BTW, all of my students should have a copy of this book. The better you understand the path you are on the better you will be able to read it. As you get into it you will see that it is quite subtle and nuanced from what you may have first thought. ei chaya gosai cara mui tara dasa tan sabara pada renu mora pancagras!
Jason - December 3, 2006 4:48 pm
I'll try to state the difference between the two based on my VERY LIMITED knowledge:
I think that I recall Swami once saying that both vaidhi and raganuga bhakti are part of sadhana bhakti; like two separate sections of sadhana bhakti. While vaidhi is a form of devotion that is based on rules and raganuga bhakti is spontaneous (and spontenaity is what we're shootin' for), the rules help to get us there appropirately. Bhaktivinode Thakur said that we can't just jump to worshiping Krsna, the object, without understanding and worshiping the path exemplified by Mahaprabhu. The residents of Vaikuntha exhibit vaidhi-bhakti in the highest sense, whereas, in Goloka, prema rules.
Am I close?
Swami - December 3, 2006 5:38 pm
I'll try to state the difference between the two based on my VERY LIMITED knowledge:
I think that I recall Swami once saying that both vaidhi and raganuga bhakti are part of sadhana bhakti; like two separate sections of sadhana bhakti. While vaidhi is a form of devotion that is based on rules and raganuga bhakti is spontaneous (and spontenaity is what we're shootin' for), the rules help to get us there appropirately. Bhaktivinode Thakur said that we can't just jump to worshiping Krsna, the object, without understanding and worshiping the path exemplified by Mahaprabhu. The residents of Vaikuntha exhibit vaidhi-bhakti in the highest sense, whereas, in Goloka, prema rules.
Am I close?
Yes, close. But . . .
I would like to hear someone else comment on Jason's understanding, pointing out what may be correct and what may not be, etc.
Let's start with his first sentence: "I think that I recall Swami once saying that both vaidhi and raganuga bhakti are part of sadhana bhakti; like two separate sections of sadhana bhakti."
Is this true? And if so, what is the scriptural evidence in support of it?
Guru-nistha Das - December 3, 2006 6:11 pm
The Little Book of Bhakti Yoga:
page 197, Vaidhi -sadhana:
"The first of two types of sadhana-bhakti, that which is motivated by the fear of not following scriptural rules and regulations. Rupa Goswami has described sixty-four limbs of vaidhi-sadhana, out of which the following ten are the primary ones for the beginner; 1) surrender at the feet of a guru, 2) initiation and instructions regarding Krsna, 3) serving the guru with trust and intimacy, 4) following the path of the saints, 5) inquiry into the true nature of things 6) renouncing ordinary pleasures for Krsna's sake, 7) living in a sacred place, 8) acceptance of only what is necessary in ordinary life, 9)honouring Ekadasi and other holy days and 10) respect for holy trees.
Of all the sixty-four limbs, the following five are considered the most powerful: 1) serving the Deity of Krsna, reading the Srimad-Bhagavatam, 3) associating with like-minded devotees, 4) sankirtana on Hari-nama and 5) living in the area of Mathura. However, a devotee may also attain perfection by following only one limb perfectly.
Vaidhi-sadhana leads to a particular type of bhava and prema, and after death, to Vaikuntha."
Got to go to cook, somebody else post the part on Raganuga!
Citta Hari Dasa - December 3, 2006 6:29 pm
Vaidhi-bhakti is a path unto itself that leads the practitioner to one of the four kinds of devotional mukti in Vaikuntha. The Gaudiyas are not interested in that. Sadhana-bhakti in the Gauidya school is of two kinds: with or without taste. To the extent that taste (ruci) is absent, the practitioner must support one's practice by following the rules and regulations of bhakti. Bhaktivinoda Thakura called this vaidhi ("rules-oriented") bhakti.
But living by rule is the antithesis of raga. In bhakti sadhana before taste awakens we are 'practicing' raga--a total oxymoron. How then do the two types of practice relate?
They have been referred to by Guru Maharaja to be like ripe and unripe mango. It is the same fruit, but in different stages of development. In other words we are after raga bhakti from the outset, but we have no taste, much less raga. We thus engage in regulated practice with a view to develop raga. What Bhaktivinoda called vaidhi-bhakti has been called ajata-ruci-raganuga (raganuga without taste) by Sri Jiva Goswami in Bhakti-sandarbha (311). As the practitioner's heart becomes more pure, the eligibility develops to allow one to begin incorporating elements of raganuga sadhana into one's practice.
Much more to be said, but this is a start.
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 3, 2006 7:21 pm
In one sense they are same path until one fully develops ruci. The main difference being motivation. On both paths one practices the limbs of hearing and chanting as described in BRS. In vaidhi one is motivated by scriptural injunctions and duty whereas mature raganuga bhakti is motivated by love, which arises from sacred greed (lobha). The raganuga bhakta is motivated by an intense desire to follow in the footsteps of a ragatmika bhakta.
BVT and SP used the term vaidhi bhakti as synonymous with ajata ruci sadhana bhakti, which GM often writes and speaks about. In the context of the GV teachings vaidhi-bhakti doesn’t mean practicing to attain Vaikuntha.
GM often described these two types of raganuga bhakti, ajata ruci and jata ruci. I believe these terms were used by Jiva Goswami in Bhakti-sandarbha (not sure). Those with no taste (ajata) are as GM says, “Grounded in ritualistic bhakti with their ideal being raganuga bhakti”. In the ajata ruci stage one engages in the limbs of bhakti to give support to one’s budding attraction to the raga marga. Over time one may develop ruci and at that time ones practice is fueled by taste.
I just saw your reply CH and see the reference is Bhakti sandarbha.
Your expression is clear and helpful in terms of vaidhi being "a path unto itself leading to Vaikuntha" whereas the Gaudiyas practice sadhana bhakti of two kinds, jata and ajata.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 3, 2006 9:08 pm
The Little Book of Bhakti Yoga:
page 151, raganuga-sadhana:
"The second type of sadhana-bhakti, bhakti following in the wake of either of two types of ragatmica-bhaktas. Externally, raganuga-sadhana follows the same items of sadhana as vaidhi-sadhana, but the motivation is different: it is intense hankering (lobha) for the same type of connection with Krishna as one of the ragatmica-bhaktas have. While raganuga-sadhana is a separate path from vaidhi-sadhana and not a sequel to it, one cannot take it's internal practices in full before reaching the stage of ruci.
Raganuga-sadhana is performed in two ways: 1) externally with the practitioner's body (sadhaka-rupa), and 2) internally with the perfected body (siddha-rupa). The external practice consists of the practices of vaidhi-sadhana, with the exception of things that may conflict with the desired relationship. For example, a devotee wishing to become a servant of Radha and Krishna will not worship Krishna as the Lord of Dvaraka. The internal practice consists of service within the mind (manasi-seva).
The first stage is to visualize a static picture of Radha and Krishna surrounded by their associates. When this is mastered, the devotee begins to visualize the divine couple's eight-fold daily lila and his or her own participation therein. The latter practice is very advanced, since it demands not only full control of the mind, but also a thorough knowledge of the lilas, the characters, locations and so on, and also knowledge of one's own perfected, spiritual form (siddha-rupa). The details of this form (ekadasa-bhava) are either revealed by the guru or directly by Krishna through Hari-nama."
Jason - December 3, 2006 11:19 pm
While raganuga-sadhana is a separate path from vaidhi-sadhana and not a sequel to it, one cannot take it's internal practices in full before reaching the stage of ruci.
What are the characteristics of "ruci" that make it distinct from the kind of "taste" that we all have since we are all interested in Vaisnava philosophy and have found some beauty in it? What is the difference between the desire that I have now to know God, to understand God...and what "ruci" means?
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 3, 2006 11:55 pm
Just few quick thoughts in response to the definition of ruci.
Ruci is an advanced stage of sadhana bhakti. The fifth stage in the development of bhakti as described in Madhurya Kadambani. Ruci develops after nistha, the stage characterized by being fixed in one's practices. At the stage of ruci I guess it could be characterized as a deep hankering and drive in one's practice. Maybe it could also be described that one's attention and absorption in spitual practices far outweighs one's attraction to any material activity. In other words a very advanced state of spiritual taste
So much more can be said about ruci in general/ ruci in the context of this vaidhi/ raganuga discussion.
I have to go but I am appreciating this discussion and I hope it keeps going. More posts!!
I also have some questions to post later.
Citta Hari Dasa - December 4, 2006 2:55 am
The ruci that we have at present for material objects is a function of the combination of the gunas and our karma. It is born, lives, and will die in our minds only. As Prema pointed out, the ruci that awakens in our journey to prema-bhakti comes after the stage of nistha, wherein material desire has been largely cleansed from the heart. This spiritual taste comes from the realm of consciousness, the soul itself, and not the mind--a material element.
Swami - December 4, 2006 3:13 am
Some spiritual taste may come before ruci (otherwise how could the practiontioner continue?), but it is not reliable nor specific. With regard to its lack of specificity Jason's words are telling: "What is the difference between the desire that I have now to know God, to understand God...and what "ruci" means?" This is very general interest, and raga bhakti in particualr is very specific.
Guru-nistha Das - December 4, 2006 3:22 am
What are the characteristics of "ruci" that make it distinct from the kind of "taste" that we all have since we are all interested in Vaisnava philosophy and have found some beauty in it? What is the difference between the desire that I have now to know God, to understand God...and what "ruci" means?
Nice question, Jason.
Maybe the biggest difference between our taste and the taste experienced in ruci is that on that stage devotion becomes completely unmotivated (ahaituki) and devoid of ulterior motive , whereas our devotion to a large extent is driven by ulterior motive. We want something for ourselves from the knowledge of God and from the relationship with him, whereas a ruci-bhakta only wants to serve him. (mama janmani janmanisvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvai).
The stage of ruci is where suddha-bhakti, or pure devotion begins. A person on that stage has no taste for anything else than unmotivated acts of devotion, and the purusarthas, or the four goals of life that consist the sum total of material enjoyment, lose all attraction.
So practically he becomes liberated of the material influence on this stage, although the final liberation is said to being attained at the stage of asakti.
Guru Maharaja's Siksastakam (commentary on the 4th verse, which corresponds with the stage of ruci) is a great resource for understanding ruci better.
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 4, 2006 7:01 pm
I have a question about the word “specific” and what it means in relation to the verse, “krsna-bhakti-rasa-bhavita matih…” Is this speaking of a “general specific” like I like to hear how the gopis love Krsna or I like to hear how the cowherd boys love Krsna. I’ve heard it described this is like a seed form of lobha that then develops through sadhu sanga.
How does the “specific” evolve into more specific as one proceeds to the stage of ruci?
I’d like to get a better understanding of the definitions of raganuga bhakti and ragatmika bhakti. Sometimes it seems that ragatmika bhakti is being described as something attainable in terms of the perfectional state of raganuga bhakti and mostly described as a coveted state that exists only in the hearts of the original residents of Vrndavana, the vraja-vasi-jane. Sometimes I have also heard it explained that it "principally" manifests in the eternal residents of Vraja.
ragatmika-bhakti-'mukhya' vraja-vasi-jane
tara anugata-bhaktira `raganuga'-name
(Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.149)
Rama-priya - December 4, 2006 9:06 pm
As far as I understood before awakens lobha in the heart one needs follow vaidhi with the goal of attaining Krsna prema. The symptom of lobha is freedom from material greed. Anarthas can be still there, but the desire of material life went away. But first one needs some faith, that one gets thanks mercy. then we come in touch with devotees and we have possibility to hear about Krsna. then we gradually starts to iquiry about spiritual practice and by instruction and siksa we come to anartha nivrittti (clearing unwanted things) and then develops steady faith (nista) and taste (ruci) for hearing, chanting about Krsna and when ruci develops appears asakti - attachment to object of one's worship. From asakti one comes to bhava bhakti (arising transcendental emotions) and when it develops appeared prema.
Following regulations is very helpful for developing raga, they are helpful in curing "sick raga" for material things. Then these regulations in some way go away and remain pure sponaneus devotional service. Vaidhi is the part of raganuga-sadhana, that leads us to residents of Vraja, and vaidhi - devotion performing because of duty to Vaikuntha.
Vivek - December 4, 2006 9:25 pm
Where do you get the book on bhakti yoga.
I wanted to purchase that book.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 4, 2006 10:20 pm
Where do you get the book on bhakti yoga.
I wanted to purchase that book.
I have some available. Just make a $25 donation to Audarya -- click on "Make a Donation" button on http://www.swami.org/sanga/ and send me nanda.tanuja.dasa@gmail.com your mailing address, so I can ship you the book.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 5, 2006 12:11 am
- Bhakti that is motivated by intellect but not taste is vaidhi-bhakti.
- Practising vaidhi-bhakti helps to attain greater eligibility for raganuga-bhakti.
- Kanishta devotees' lobhamayi sraddha is komala, so it needs support from angas of vaidhi-bhakti.
- When raganuga-bhakti is mature it can override vidhi thus transcend vaidhi-bhakti.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 5, 2006 11:40 am
I am going to take the position of the purvapaksa (opponent).
If vaidhi-sadhana is not a sequel to raganuga but a separate path leading to Vaikuntha, then how can "practicing vaidhi-bhakti help [one] to attain greater eligibility for raganuga-bhakti"? How can following the rules (viddhi) give greed for raga, which is love beyond rules? I am thinking we should leave the 64 limbs of vaidhi sadhana to those who want to attain Vaikuntha. Because we want to attain Goloka, we should follow the raga-marga and not follow all the rules. After all, I read that raganuga-sadhakas don't care for the injunctions of sastra. Thus to my great relief I've stopped the tiresome practice of hearing and chanting, which are just limbs of vaidhi.
However, I have one concern. In a class on SB 3.26.41, Srila Prabhupada said, "Similarly, this automatically serving Krsna, that is called raga-bhakti. That is reached by vaidhi-bhakti, by practicing." I understood that vaidhi-bhakti isn't a sequel to raga-bhakti. Now I'm confused. Can someone help me understand this clearly?
Bhrigu - December 5, 2006 1:00 pm
Dear Purvapaksini,
yes, raganuga-sadhana is not a sequel to vaidhi-sadhana, they are parallel paths. What differs is the motivation for practicing sadhana-bhakti, as has been mentioned before. Now, there are two stages of raganuga-sadhana (and mark the word sadhana -- raganuga bhakti is practice just as much as vaidhi, so please do keep up the "tiresome practice of hearing and chanting" until you reach bhava, where you'll still do so, but spontaneously). The first is called ajata-ruci (or -rati) -raganuga-sadhana, that is raganuga-sadhana before one has reached the stage of ruci. The difference between ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana and vaidhi-sadhana is *only* one of motivation. When the sadhaka has reached the stage of ruci (that is, jata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana), she may -- in addition to following almost all of the ordinary 64 limbs of sadhana -- add some extra limbs of sadhana (such as manasi seva) unique to raganuga-sadhana to her life.
As for your question, Bhaktivinoda Thakur sometimes called ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana "vaidhi-sadhana", to emphasise how important rules and regulations still are at this stage, even though the motivation for devotional practices isn't fear of sin. Ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana-bhakti will, under proper guidance and with time and enthusiasm, lead to jata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana-bhakti. In this sense, vaidhi can be said to lead to raga.
I hope this helps.
Your sincerely,
BP Siddhanti
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 5, 2006 2:40 pm
Dear BP Siddhanti Maharajaji,
Thank you, the clouds of my confusion are dispersing; however, one new doubt has arisen. You say that at the stage of jata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana, one adds extra limbs of sadhana (such as manasi seva). It seems to me that manasi seva is smaranam. Why do you consider it an extra limb?
purvapaksini
Bhrigu - December 5, 2006 3:49 pm
Dear Purvapaksini,
thank you for your letter. We are glad to hear that the dark clouds covering the pristine glory of your devotional service are dispersing. As for your new question, manasi seva can be considered an "extra limb" in the sense of it being a special type of smarana (including the eleven-fold knowledge of one's own spiritual form, service, etc) that one is not qualified to perform before this stage. Otherwise, it may be said that this form of smarana is a more perfected form of the general limb of smarana.
Your eternal well-wisher,
B.P. Siddhanti
-----
Returning back to normal mode, I would be interested to hear more about whether non-vrajavasis can be considered ragatmika-bhaktas. The CC quote that Prema-bhakti-marga Didi gave really does say that the ragatmikas "generally" are Vrajavasis, but who are the exceptions then? Kubja?
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 5, 2006 5:31 pm
I guess I'll return to normal mode too (or is normal for me?)
In his commentary to Brs. 1.2.276, Jiva Goswami indicates that it is possible for the Pandavas to be seen as ragatmikas (although admittedly this is in the context of explaining that they are not ragatmikas):
If on the other hand sneha or affection of the Pandavas for Lord Sri Krsna was accepted as a particular form of Prema, it can only end in their sense of relationship, and therefore, at best can be said to be Sambandharupa, and not Kamarupa Bhakti.
I've also heard that the queens in Dvaraka can be considered to have a mixture of vaidhi and raga.
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 5, 2006 5:42 pm
I guess I'll return to normal mode too (or is
In his commentary to Brs. 1.2.276, Jiva Goswami indicates that it is possible for the Pandavas to be seen as ragatmikas (although admittedly this is in the context of explaining that they are not ragatmikas):
I've also heard that the queens in Dvaraka can be considered to have a mixture of vaidhi and raga.
Hmmm. Interesting. Thanks Vrindaranya.
Swami - December 5, 2006 6:40 pm
I have a question about the word “specific” and what it means in relation to the verse, “krsna-bhakti-rasa-bhavita matih…” Is this speaking of a “general specific” like I like to hear how the gopis love Krsna or I like to hear how the cowherd boys love Krsna. I’ve heard it described this is like a seed form of lobha that then develops through sadhu sanga.
How does the “specific” evolve into more specific as one proceeds to the stage of ruci?
I’d like to get a better understanding of the definitions of raganuga bhakti and ragatmika bhakti. Sometimes it seems that ragatmika bhakti is being described as something attainable in terms of the perfectional state of raganuga bhakti and mostly described as a coveted state that exists only in the hearts of the original residents of Vrndavana, the vraja-vasi-jane. Sometimes I have also heard it explained that it "principally" manifests in the eternal residents of Vraja.
ragatmika-bhakti-'mukhya' vraja-vasi-jane
tara anugata-bhaktira `raganuga'-name
(Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.149)
Yes, the verse "krsna-bhakti rasa bhavita mathih . . ." is speaking about the general standard of eligibility for treading the raga marg: one must have lobha (spiritual greed) that characterizes the nature of the love of the Vrajavais. When one is greedy, one acts is ways that are unbecoming. Similarly, the Vrajavais' act in relation to Krsna in ways that are unbecoming from the perspective of one seeing Krsna as the Supreme God. A raganuga-sadhaka is greedy for this kind of sacred greed. Here krsna-bhakti rasa refers to Vraja-bhakti. The verse itself is found in Sri Rupa's Padyavali, but its author is not listed there.
This lobha is sraddha-mayi lobha, or faith filled with sacred greed. It can be tender, fixed, or fixed and well informed and thus kanistha,madhyama, or uttama in nature. As it naturally develops, one's focus becomes more and more specific, and thus one's hearing and chanting becomes focused accordingly.
Raganuga-bhakti is specific in that it is about following those who have raga, the ragatmikas. Such following (anuga) is called raganuga, the goal of which is to become ragatmika. Sri Rupa defines "ragatmika" as bhakti that is full of the deepest, spontaneous absorption in one's desired object. Its primary characteristic is deep love for one's desired object and its marginal characteristic is absorption in that love. Examples of it are the Vrajavasis's love for Krsna. So although one cannot become Subala, Nanda baba, etc, one can become like them and be filled with raga or ragatmika. The goal of raganuga-bhakti is ragatmika-bhakti.
Swami - December 5, 2006 8:13 pm
However, Bhaktivinoda Thakura clearly points out that a jiva who attains Vraja bhakti is eternally different from the Ragatmikas of Vraja who are constituted of svarupa-sakti. They can only become ragatmika in the sense that the word denotes absorption in raga and their goal is ragatmika-bhkati only in the sense that it is to be so absorbed. They cannot however become one whose raga is inborn, or on in whom raga for Krsna has always and always will be their very being--one whose soul (atma) is raga. Thus there is an eternal distinction between those who forever follow (anuga) the raga of those in whom raga is inborn and therby experience it themselves and those eternal asociates of Sri Krsna who are ragatmikas in every sense of the term.
Gaurangi-priya Devi - December 5, 2006 10:37 pm
Today I was thinking about how important it is to have the guidance of Sri Guru with practicing vaidhi-bhakti on the path of raganuga-bhakti. Otherwise there can be a trouble of following the rules and regulations only for the sake of following them, niyamagraha. I have encountered many devotees that are perfect followers of vaidhi, but I wonder where the feeling has gone. Anyway, too many rules can be overwhelming to me, and I have found that having the guidance of GM makes the rules more understandable. Also, it seems having that guidance is important on an individual level as we all go through different life phases and our capacity to follow the rules may change.
Another thing I have been thinking about since this discussion has been brought up, is how my children have a natural inclination to spontaneous devotion. It is a real balance to encourage the natural devotion, and not stifle with the multitude of rules. I guess sticking to the 5 main limbs of devotion is safest and most practicle and easily do-able.
Just some thoughts. Don't mean to be back tracking at all on the progression of the discussion.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 5, 2006 10:37 pm
Such following (anuga) is called raganuga, the goal of which is to become ragatmika....
So although one cannot become Subala, Nanda baba, etc, one can become like them and be filled with raga or ragatmika. The goal of raganuga-bhakti is ragatmika-bhakti.
But because of eternal distinction between ragatmika and raganuga, having a goal which cannot be achieved doesn't make much sense! Can you explain this a little more, please? Specifically this:
They can only become ragatmika in the sense that the word denotes absorption in raga and their goal is ragatmika-bhkati only in the sense that it is to be so absorbed.
Swami - December 5, 2006 10:50 pm
But because of eternal distinction between ragatmika and raganuga, having a goal which cannot be achieved doesn't make much sense! Can you explain this a little more, please?
BVT writes in Jaiva Dharma
"When one attains the stage of vastutah jada-mukti, the ragatmika-vrtti or mood of the ragatmikas, is awakened in the pure jiva."
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 5, 2006 11:36 pm
Does the appearance of ragatmika-vrtti in raganuga-bhakta is a beginning of a manifestation of svarupa-siddhi?
Jason - December 6, 2006 3:47 am
Ruci is an advanced stage of sadhana bhakti. The fifth stage in the development of bhakti as described in Madhurya Kadambani. Ruci develops after nistha, the stage characterized by being fixed in one's practices. At the stage of ruci I guess it could be characterized as a deep hankering and drive in one's practice. Maybe it could also be described that one's attention and absorption in spitual practices far outweighs one's attraction to any material activity. In other words a very advanced state of spiritual taste
I needed to back up a little; it's really amazing to see how quickly these threads move. I'm lagging behind a bit, trying to catch up.
Prema, thanks for this! Perhaps not coincidentally, I received some books in the mail today and Madhurya Kadambini was one of them. Not too sure how many translations of this text are out there, but this was rather small so I ditched Sociology and read the whole thing in the library.
It answered my question about ruci too, by saying that "...the desire for activities of bhakti are vastly greater than anything else." Also, there are no signs of the 5 obstacles such as laya, viksepa, rasavada, etc.
I found this quote that helped me to understand:
"The newly sprouted creeper of sadhana-bhakti unfurls two leaves pointing upward. The inner surface is the domain of the king called raga (raga-bhakti) and is smooth, being born of spontaneous greed for everything pertaining to the Lord. The outer surface is ruled by vaidhi-bhakti, slightly rough, the sign of being generated from obedience to scriptural rules. It is somewhat inferior since spontaneous affection is lacking."
As I continued to read about the stages outlined in the book, I did have another question. Sraddha is defined as "firm trust" and there are 2 types: Spontaneous (svabhaviki) and baladutpadita, which is translated as "...from forceful preaching". How can faith be forced?
I do appreciate this thread.... 
Swami - December 6, 2006 4:16 am
Does the appearance of ragatmika-vrtti in raganuga-bhakta is a beginning of a manifestation of svarupa-siddhi?
Yes and the ragamika-vritti is complete in vastu-siddhi.
Vinode Vani Dasa - December 6, 2006 5:21 pm
Today I was thinking about how important it is to have the guidance of Sri Guru with practicing vaidhi-bhakti on the path of raganuga-bhakti. Otherwise there can be a trouble of following the rules and regulations only for the sake of following them, niyamagraha. I have encountered many devotees that are perfect followers of vaidhi, but I wonder where the feeling has gone. Anyway, too many rules can be overwhelming to me, and I have found that having the guidance of GM makes the rules more understandable. Also, it seems having that guidance is important on an individual level as we all go through different life phases and our capacity to follow the rules may change.
Yes, it seems the guidance of guru will be essential with regard to moving us toward real spiritual taste for Krishna. Otherwise, as you say we may become attached to the following of rules and regulations for their own sake; or, on the other hand, we may decide we can pick and choose which regulations to follow.
I suppose we bother with these rules and regulations at all because we already have some slight inkling of taste for Krishna; this is what motivates our practice. So the real test of whether these practices are doing anything for us is whether we are further developing our taste, and simultaneously losing our taste for other mundane activities. Sometimes I think we perform rituals merely because they provide us with some comfort. They provide a sense of stability which the constant changing of the material world lacks. There may be some value in this, but ultimately this appears to be contrary to what we want, for we will have then attained an taste for performing rituals. If we want spontaneous devotion, we perform the instructions of our guru with an eye to becoming more spontaneous in our devotion. Do we spontaneously think of ways to serve Krishna better, or of how to spreach Krishna consciousness? Hopefully we are little by little moving in this direction. It seems like the only way to do this is to somehow get involved. How do we get involved? Find a guru, someone who is spontaneously serving Krishna, and ask him or her to get you involved. He or she will be able to see how to engage you in Krishna's service most appropriately. Engage yourself wholeheartedly in this service, hoping to attain the same feeling for Krishna that your gurudeva has. Always look for ways to improve your sadhana; don't get too comfortable. Surprise your guru by going a step farther than you normally would, or by taking the next step without his telling you to; this will inspire him to bestow his mercy on you. What will his mercy be? More service; more subtle, more engaging service that takes you farther into Krishna consciousness than you could have imagined.
Maybe I should try this sometime...
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 6, 2006 5:49 pm
However, Bhaktivinoda Thakura clearly points out that a jiva who attains Vraja bhakti is eternally different from the Ragatmikas of Vraja who are constituted of svarupa-sakti. They can only become ragatmika in the sense that the word denotes absorption in raga and their goal is ragatmika-bhkati only in the sense that it is to be so absorbed. They cannot however become one whose raga is inborn, or on in whom raga for Krsna has always and always will be their very being--one whose soul (atma) is raga. Thus there is an eternal distinction between those who forever follow (anuga) the raga of those in whom raga is inborn and therby experience it themselves and those eternal asociates of Sri Krsna who are ragatmikas in every sense of the term.
This statement makes it more clear. Thank you.
This lobha is sraddha-mayi lobha, or faith filled with sacred greed. It can be tender, fixed, or fixed and well informed and thus kanistha,madhyama, or uttama in nature. As it naturally develops, one's focus becomes more and more specific, and thus one's hearing and chanting becomes focused accordingly.
I never really thought of it in the context of kanistha, madhyama or uttama before. This helps my understanding. Thank you.
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 6, 2006 6:42 pm
As I continued to read about the stages outlined in the book, I did have another question. Sraddha is defined as "firm trust" and there are 2 types: Spontaneous (svabhaviki) and baladutpadita, which is translated as "...from forceful preaching". How can faith be forced?
Okay I am going to take a crack at this.
If I remember correctly svabhaviki is described as scripturally based faith arising naturally through blessings and association of sadhus. I think it is also sometimes called "sastriya sraddha" whereas baladutpadita I believe is more like an imitation or by force of habit or ritual. When I think of forceful preaching I think of being swept away perhaps by fanaticism. This type of faith is characterized as weak and not very useful for developing higher stages of bhakti. A person with this type of faith needs to attain svabhaviki sraddha by associating with saints to make substancial progress.
Guru Maharaja sometimes speaks of sastriya sraddha and contrasts it with komala sraddha. I am not sure if this is the same idea or not.
Jason - December 7, 2006 3:03 am
Thanks Prema, I see what you're saying....not "forceful preaching" in the sense that it's a scare tactic kind of thing.
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 7, 2006 2:54 pm
Thanks Prema, I see what you're saying....not "forceful preaching" in the sense that it's a scare tactic kind of thing.
Well, I am not completely confident in my answer. I don't recall the exact wording, "from forceful preaching".
Maybe someone else can help us out here.
Swami - December 7, 2006 7:00 pm
Okay I am going to take a crack at this.
If I remember correctly svabhaviki is described as scripturally based faith arising naturally through blessings and association of sadhus. I think it is also sometimes called "sastriya sraddha" whereas baladutpadita I believe is more like an imitation or by force of habit or ritual. When I think of forceful preaching I think of being swept away perhaps by fanaticism. This type of faith is characterized as weak and not very useful for developing higher stages of bhakti. A person with this type of faith needs to attain svabhaviki sraddha by associating with saints to make substancial progress.
Guru Maharaja sometimes speaks of sastriya sraddha and contrasts it with komala sraddha. I am not sure if this is the same idea or not.
Svabhaviki means "natural." This kind of faith is comes naturally in the asociation of advanced devotees. As the Bhagavata 3.25.25 says, satam prasangan mama virya samvido. . . sraddha ratir bhaktir anukramisyati. You are correct in identifying this kind of faith with sastriya-sraddha, for in the asociation of advanced devotees sastra is lived out and thier words are supported by sastra. Only in their company can one learn the real meaning of scripture.
Baladutpadita means "generated by force." In other words it is "unnatural," the opposite of svabhaviki. Being also the opposite of sastriya-sraddha it is laukika-sradha, or faith that instead of coming through guru parampara and being grounded in sastra is worldly (laukika). That is, it is merely sentiment and is misrepresentative of real faith. Fanaticism can fall into this category. This kind of faith is not useful for serious spiritual practice and often gets in the way. Although it can be somewhat useful if it brings one to associate with devotees where this mere shadow of faith can be converted into actual faith.
As for komala sraddha, this is tender faith that may be svabahviki in nature but is not very well developed.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 7, 2006 7:27 pm
Coming back to raganuga vs. vaidhi-bhakti. On many occasions I've seen very condescending approach of some devotees to vaidhi-bhaktas (worshiping Lakshmi-Narayana, etc.). I guess their thought is that because raganuga transcends vaidhi then vaidhi is something less. I would like to hear some of your thoughts on that matter. Maybe even going into discussion of madhurya-rasa is being superior to santa-rasa, etc. Also, I think it would be interesting to talk about progression from vaidhi to raganuga, meaning we cannot jump over vaidhi. Or can we?
Audarya-lila Dasa - December 7, 2006 9:40 pm
I would like to explore the practices of vaidhi bhakti a little bit more in this thread. As far as definitions go, we seem to have the consensus view that vaidhi bhakti is a path that leads to Vaikuntha and that raganuga bhakti leads to Goloka. We have also learned that what gaudiyas sometime refer to as 'vaidhi bhakti' is really raganuga bhakti in the stage of ajata-ruci.
Following those defitions and distinctions it seems that vaidhi bhakti would focus on Narayana as Krsna isn't present in Vaikuntha. Since our tradition is Krsna-centric and the clear goal espoused by gaudiyas is love of Krsna, it seems that, (1) we, on the whole, would have little interest in the details of vaidhi bhakti and (2) our scriptures would not present a complete picture of everything involved in the path to Vaikuntha (what I mean here is that all our tattva acharyas are ragatmikas and they are guiding us quite clearly on the path to attain Krsna, not Narayana).
I think we have to be very clear in our nomenclature so that this topic doesn't become confusing. When we speak of vaidhi being bhakti governed by rules and regulations then the natural tendency is to equate vaidhi and ajata-ruci sadhana bhakti - but the goals are completely different and I would think that the practices are quite different as well. I mean I can't imagine engaging in chanting Krsna nama bhajana, reading Srimad Bhagavatam, engaging in deity worship, etc. all with the understanding that the parivasha sloka of S.B. is Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam and at the same time having a prayojana of serving Narayana in Vaikuntha. It's not as if someone whose goal is to attain Krsna prema who dies having only progressed along the path slightly will end up in Vaikuntha and that those who 'complete' the course and reach up to bhava or prema will end up in Goloka.
I would think that the sambandha-jnana and the abhidheya-jnana on the vaidhi path are quite distinct from the sambandha and abhidheya given to those on the raga path, just as the prayojana is distinct for those following these distinct paths to spiritual perfection.
So, I've rambled on enough and I have to get back to work now, but I'd like to simply point out that this post is meant as an exploration of this topic and I am raising some thoughts/doubts I have and seeking to clarify terminology and find the proper understanding of the distinctions between vaidhi and raganuga, especially as the distinction pertains to the differences between vaidhi and ajata-ruci raganuga bhakti sadhana.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 8, 2006 12:10 am
Following those defitions and distinctions it seems that vaidhi bhakti would focus on Narayana as Krsna isn't present in Vaikuntha.
Sri Prahlada Maharaja is a vaidhi-bhakta, but his istadevata is Krsna.
Audarya-lila Dasa - December 8, 2006 6:32 pm
Sri Prahlada Maharaja is a vaidhi-bhakta, but his istadevata is Krsna.
I can't recall ever reading that Prahlada Maharaja is a vaidhi-bhakta (that may mean I just have a bad memory). I know he serves as an example of a devotee in santa rasa but I believe the consensus view is that even though only four rasas are mentioned in regards to vraja-bhakti that as Krsna is rasaraja he also reciprocates with devotees in santa rasa. Narada Muni describes Prahlada's attraction to Krsna as 'natural' in the seventh canto and he is also described to have 'become like a madman' in the Nectar of devotion.
Can you cite the reference where it is stated that Prahlada Maharaja is a vaidhi-bhakta please.
Thank you
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 8, 2006 8:33 pm
I don’t have any scriptural reference, but as we concluded before there are two paths: raganuga-bhakti and vaidhi-bhakti. To be on raganuga-bhakti path devotee has to follow the bhava of a Vrajavasi, in case of Prahlada Maharaja it wasn't so because his guru was Sri Narada Muni and Narada is triloka sanchaari meaning he is a nomad, not a resident of Vraja. Besides, disciple follows a sentiment of his Guru and Narada is not a raganuga-bhakta. So, Prahlada Maharaja is a vaidhi-bhakta.
Madangopal - December 8, 2006 10:09 pm
On this disappearance day of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada, I would recommend a reading of Guru Maharaj's booklet "Sri Guru Parampara." Many of the ideas from this thread are discussed therein, as well as it being a wonderful source of inspiration in our great-grandfather (or grandfather depending upon your generation). Our sadhana and sadhya are made crystal clear in this short booklet. Glories to BSST, the heir to the esoteric life of Bhaktivinoda! What a legacy he has left us...
Swami - December 8, 2006 10:25 pm
I can't recall ever reading that Prahlada Maharaja is a vaidhi-bhakta (that may mean I just have a bad memory). I know he serves as an example of a devotee in santa rasa but I believe the consensus view is that even though only four rasas are mentioned in regards to vraja-bhakti that as Krsna is rasaraja he also reciprocates with devotees in santa rasa. Narada Muni describes Prahlada's attraction to Krsna as 'natural' in the seventh canto and he is also described to have 'become like a madman' in the Nectar of devotion.
Can you cite the reference where it is stated that Prahlada Maharaja is a vaidhi-bhakta please.
Thank you
When Prahlada was asked what the best thing he learned was, he responded "vaidhi bhakti"—sravanam kirtanam visnu smaranam . . . Yes, his ista devata is Krsna, but Krsna can also we worshiped in vaidhi bhakti. We find Krsna bhakti in both the Madhva and Ramanuja sampradays, which are vaidhi-bhakti sampradayas. Madhava's Deity in Udupi is Krsna, Udupi Krsna. This Deity is said to have been worshiped by Rukmini.
Audarya-lila Dasa - December 8, 2006 10:49 pm
O.K. - but it was already established earlier in this thread that sravanam, kirtanam etc. are integral parts of raganuga sadhana as well so I don't think on that basis alone we can say he was a vaidhi bhakti. I am still quite curious as to how it is that one can have his/her ista devata as Krsna and yet have as a goal worshiping Narayana in Vaikuntha. Maharaja can you speak to that question please? What I mean is - it was stated that the prayojana of vaidhi bhakti is residence in Vaikuntha so how is it that sadhakas with that goal will worship Krsna as their ista devata? Even though Krsna exhibits some aisvarya in Dvarka and there is some distance created based on his devotees knowledge and awe of his 'godhood' - it is still quite distinct from Vaikuntha.
Swami - December 8, 2006 11:25 pm
O.K. - but it was already established earlier in this thread that sravanam, kirtanam etc. are integral parts of raganuga sadhana as well so I don't think on that basis alone we can say he was a vaidhi bhakti. I am still quite curious as to how it is that one can have his/her ista devata as Krsna and yet have as a goal worshiping Narayana in Vaikuntha. Maharaja can you speak to that question please? What I mean is - it was stated that the prayojana of vaidhi bhakti is residence in Vaikuntha so how is it that sadhakas with that goal will worship Krsna as their ista devata? Even though Krsna exhibits some aisvarya in Dvarka and there is some distance created based on his devotees knowledge and awe of his 'godhood' - it is still quite distinct from Vaikuntha.
Before I or anyone alse answers this, I want to stress that Prahlada is a vaidhi bhakta. Read Brhat-bhagavatamrta, as I am sure you already have. Where is Prahlada? Is he in Vraja with the gopas and gopis? Is he the example of self forgetfulness and spiritual selflessness, or the beginning of the end of material selfishness?
I will say one thing in answer to your question, somethng that I do not think others will think of. Nor is this the complete answer to your question, but it is possible to conceive of Narayana as the Supreme God in terms of tattva (as opposed to krsnas tu bhagavan svayam) and have Krsna as one's ista devata. Narayana has many avataras and they have their respective Vaikunthalokas. Krsna can be conceivd of as either the source of Narayana or as having Narayana as his source. For the residents of Viakuntha the latter is the case, and there is a correspondi loka in which a semblance of the Vraja-lila is relished by those who worship Krsna as the avatara of Narayana. You may recall form Bb that Sriman Narayana gave this darshan to Gopa Kumara, but it did not satisfy him. It is not the same a Vrajaloka.
Of course the residents of Vrajaloka also conceive of Narayana as the Supreme Godhead, but that is the bhava resulting from embracing the tattva of krsnas tu bhagavan svayam, which is altogether different from the bhava resulting from embracing the siddhanta that Narayana is the source of Krsna.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 9, 2006 12:19 am
I think that you are taking Vaikuntha too narrowly. The whole spiritual world is sometimes called Vaikuntha, and Vrindavana has been called Maha-Vaikuntha. By vaidhi-bhakti one can attain up to Dwaraka or Mathura. Pure ragatmika-bhakti is only found in Vrindavana. Rupa Goswami's definition of ragatmika is as follows: "Bhakti that is distinctly and uniquely and spontaneously manifest in the Brajavasis is called Ragatmika." Thus, what to speak of Prahlad, not even the queens of Krsna in Dwaraka are pure ragatmikas. The distinction between one practicing ragatmika-bhakti and vaidhi-bhakti is whether there is distance created by being overcome by God's awe and majesty. A mix of vaidhi and raga-bhakti is also possible: "The Vrajvasis were always full of Madhurya jnana, but Krsna’s associates in Dvaraka were filled with aisvarya jnana mixed with madhurya jnana." (Raga-vartma-candrika) As mentioned previously, the Pandavas have a mixed raga/vaidhi bhakti. Kubja of Mathura is another example. Rupa Goswami says she verges on kama.
Caitanya-caritamrta has one verse that says by vaidhi-bhakti one may go to Vaikuntha, but later it gives another definition: "There are two kinds of devotional activity-spontaneous and regulative. By spontaneous devotional service, one attains the original Personality of Godhead, Krsna, and by the regulative process one attains the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Even Krsna in Mathura is an expansion of svayam bhagavan Krsna.
To the extent that awe and reverence is present, we have distance from our Deity. Guru Maharaja describes this beautifully:
" As long as one pursuing the raga marg is charmed by the world one's relationship with Bhagavan will be tempered by reverence, or the sense that there is a distinction between the worshipable object and the worshiper such as we find in vaidhi bhakti... In raga marg the Deity become one with the devotee as friend, lover, and family member. Such love of Krsna is devoid of reverence.
"I think it is important to realize that the closeness one feels with Sri Krsna in raga marg is to a large extent brought about by absence of separate interest. This absence of separate interest refers not only to material desire but spiritual selfishness as well. We find this spiritual selfishness in Vaikuntha, where reverence is the norm and thus there is a distance between Bhagavan and his devotees. We also find this spiritual selfishness or sense of difference between the Deity and devotee in the case of Rukmini. Compare her unwillingness to forego the Vedic Dharma in relation to her desire to wed Sri Krsna to the approach to Vrajendranandana we find illustrated in the gopis. The gopis were not concerned with the consequences of transgressing the Vedic law. What might happen to themselves was of no consequence to them because they had no separate sense of self from their Diety, who was himself independent of Vedic law. They were absolutely one in desire with Krsna. They were in one in love and thus not merely self-sacrificing, but self-forgetful. In Vaikuntha and Dvaraka the difference between Bhagavan and his devotees is clear. There is no such distinction in Vraja."
Audarya-lila Dasa - December 9, 2006 1:18 am
Thank you Vrndaranya for your well thought out and illuminating responses. I do remember when Narayana revealed his form as Krsna to Gopa Kumara and that he was still not satisfied but I wasn't aware that there was a seperate Vaikuntha planet where a 'semblance of Vrndavana' existed where Krsna is worshiped in awe and reverence as an expansion of Narayana. I'll have to go back and read that section of the Bb again, I seem to recall getting the impression that it was something like the gopis dissatisfaction with Krsna at Kuruksetra as they longed to have Krsna in Vrndavana. I guess that's really saying the same thing - that the loving exchange is related to the location. I also remember thinking that Narayana knew Gopa Kumara's heart and that revealing the form of Krsna gave him impetus to continue his journey.
I never conceived of a Vaikuntha planet where Krsna resides that resembles Vrndavana but where the bhava of Vraja isn't present. I have been thinking of the spiritual sky in terms of the way Sridhara Maharaja descibes it when he talks about it in the context of the Bb's heirarchical presentation where he mentions going from Vaikuntha to Ayodhya to Dvarka, Mathura and up to Goloka Vrndavana. I never really considered things from the perspective you have presented.
So just to restate it in different words:
A sadhaka who is practicing vaidhi bhakti can hold Krsna in his/her heart as his/her ista devata but their conception of Krsna will be different than that of the conception held by the practicioner of raganuga sadhana bhakti.
I'd be curious to know how the Madhvas and the Ramanujas view the Vraja-lila descriptions in the S.B. The kind of intimate relationships and pastimes revealed there are explained by our acharyas as only being possible due to there being an absence of aisvarya. In the explantion of the gopis love in your post and their selflessness and identity with Krsna that serve as the example for us to follow - these lilas are clearly written in the S.B. - how do the Madhvas and Ramanujas explain them and view them? It's a little confusing for me to understand how they would come to a different conclusion/siddhanta but then again I have not examined their texts and commentaries and so my view is biased.
Thanks again, your posts were very helpful for me and I hope everyone else as well.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 9, 2006 1:38 am
Thanks, Audarya-lila. I'm glad you found my post helpful.
I'll leave your new questions to someone else who knows more about the Madhvas and Ramanujas. Here is something that I wrote earlier about vaidhi/raganuga:
The second wave of the eastern ocean of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu describes vaidhi-bhakti in detail, including an elaborate description of the 64 limbs of vaidhi-sadhana. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa also describes the practices of vaidhi-bhakti. By and large, the 64 limbs of vaidhi-sadhana are generic (they could be applied to Narayana, Rama, Krsna, etc.). So this brings up a question. If following vaidhi-bhaki takes one to Vaikuntha/Ayodhya/Dvaraka and the Vrajabasis apparently break the rules (viddhi) for love, why does Rupa Goswami take so much time taken to describe vaidhi?
The reason for this emphasis on vaidhi-bhakti is that the limbs of vaidhi-bhakti such as sravanam, kirtanam, and smaranam are essential for raganuga-sadhakas as well. Some information about raganuga-bhakti will be helpful in understanding this.
The qualification for raganuga-bhakti is lobha (greed). Greed is defined as follows: "When the heart yearns for the sweetness of the moods of Krsna and His eternal associates in Vraja, and one is not prompted by scriptural injunctions or logical arguments." (Raga-vartma-candrika, 1.5) In the most basic sense this means that the desire to take part in Krsna's pastimes in Vrindavana arises by the mercy of a devotee or Krsna. One then is impelled to sadhana out of a desire for following in the footsteps of one of the inhabitants of Vrindavana. Therefore, one does sadhana out of this greed, not out of a sense of duty that one should follow the scriptures. However, although one is impelled by greed, in order to realize the fulfillment of one's greed, one follows the scripture. As Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur says, "When both the above-mentioned greedy devotees become inquisitive about how to attain the mood of Krsna’s eternal associates in Vraja, then we see that they are again dependent on information from the revealed scriptures and logical arguments." Guru Maharaja has succinctly described this thus: "One cannot come to krsna-prema by vaidhi-bhakti, but one cannot come to krsna-prema (of Vraja) without vaidhi-bhakti." Jiva Goswami clarifies:
"One in whom this taste (ruci) has not arisen but who has come to appreciate raganuga-bhakti only on account of appreciation for a particular saint or scripture, may still practice raganuga-bhakti but with an admixture of vaidhi-bhakti. In the same way, for the sake of preaching, one who is advanced and in whom taste has manifested should also practice raganuga with an admixture of vaidhi. Such mixing of the two kinds of bhakti means that one practices vaidhi-bhakti by uniting it with whatever raganuga practices one is capable of." (Jiva Goswami, Bhakti-sandarbha)
Raganuga means to follow in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrindavana. One does this both externally and internally. To follow externally means to follow the example of the inhabitants of Vrindavana when they came to earth to demonstrate the means of attaining Vrindavana, in other words, to follow the example of the Goswamis. So what does this mean practically? The limbs of vaidhi bhakti: hearing, chanting, worshipping the Deity, etc.
Following in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrindavana internally means to do manasi seva (service in the mind); however, to do this requires qualification. One needs a pure heart in order to meditate because otherwise desires interrupt one's meditation. Furthermore, to do service in the lila in meditation, one needs to know one's siddha-deha, which isn't glimpsed until the stage of asakti. As Bhaktivinode Thakur warned, "The intelligence of one who thinks of his siddha-deha without first achieving eligibility becomes bewildered." At any stage of raganuga-sadhana, one follows limbs of vaidhi. As Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur says, "Without hearing and chanting, one's following in the footsteps of the people of Vraja will remain fruitless." Smaranam (meditating) is the main limb of raganuga-sadhana; however, even this is dependent on kirtana: "In the present age of Kali everyone can enter into bhajana through the means of kirtana." (Raga-vartma-candrika)
Swami - December 9, 2006 2:25 am
I do remember when Narayana revealed his form as Krsna to Gopa Kumara and that he was still not satisfied but I wasn't aware that there was a seperate Vaikuntha planet where a 'semblance of Vrndavana' existed where Krsna is worshiped in awe and reverence as an expansion of Narayana. I'll have to go back and read that section of the Bb again, I seem to recall getting the impression that it was something like the gopis dissatisfaction with Krsna at Kuruksetra as they longed to have Krsna in Vrndavana. I guess that's really saying the same thing - that the loving exchange is related to the location. I also remember thinking that Narayana knew Gopa Kumara's heart and that revealing the form of Krsna gave him impetus to continue his journey.
I never conceived of a Vaikuntha planet where Krsna resides that resembles Vrndavana but where the bhava of Vraja isn't present. I have been thinking of the spiritual sky in terms of the way Sridhara Maharaja descibes it when he talks about it in the context of the Bb's heirarchical presentation where he mentions going from Vaikuntha to Ayodhya to Dvarka, Mathura and up to Goloka Vrndavana. I never really considered things from the perspective you have presented.
The idea is that the inhabitants of Vaikuntha know of Krsna and his lila and they conceive of them as one of the many lilas of Narayana that he sometimes manifests on earth as well as in Vaikuntha for devotees who love that form. They do not, however, know of Goloka as Maha Vainuntha. When Narayana showed Gopa Kumara Krsna lila, Gopa Kumara was still not satisfied. After all, to what extent can Narayana manifest Krsna lila when Krsna is the source of Narayana's vilasa?
The Vaikuntha bhaktas from vaidhi marg sampradayas see Narayana as the Supreme God who has many avataras, and diffrent devotees are attached to different avataras. I once visited Varakala, one of the manifestations of Vaikuntha on Earth. It just so happened that on that day they were celebrating Narayana's lila as Krsna and the Deity was dressed accodingly. Lucky me! Throughout the year they dress him as various avataras on different days. Similarly in the Padmanabha temple on earth in Trivendrum Krsna is also worshiped as an avatara of Narayana. Sri Narayana is in the central altar and there is a spearate altar for Gopal Krsna. So the point is that there is aplace for whoshiping Krnsa and relating to him as an avatara of Narayana, a place in Vaikuntha or in the heart of some devotees.
It is also worth mentioning that there is a realm in Goloka where Radha and Krsna are worshiped in svakiya-bhava that can be attained by practicing vaidhi-bhakti. I blieve this is discussed in Ragavartma Candika.
.So just to restate it in different words:
A sadhaka who is practicing vaidhi bhakti can hold Krsna in his/her heart as his/her ista devata but their conception of Krsna will be different than that of the conception held by the practicioner of raganuga sadhana bhakti
That is correct and there are numerous examples.
I'd be curious to know how the Madhvas and the Ramanujas view the Vraja-lila descriptions in the S.B. The kind of intimate relationships and pastimes revealed there are explained by our acharyas as only being possible due to there being an absence of aisvarya.
In the explantion of the gopis love in your post and their selflessness and identity with Krsna that serve as the example for us to follow - these lilas are clearly written in the S.B. - how do the Madhvas and Ramanujas explain them and view them? It's a little confusing for me to understand how they would come to a different conclusion/siddhanta but then again I have not examined their texts and commentaries and so my view is biased.
Well for the most part they don't read our acaryas commentaries. The Ramanuja sampradaya hardly even reads the Bhagavatam at all. Their focus is Visnu Purana. Madhva did comment of the Bhagavata, but his idea of the Vraja lila is very differnent from ours. For example, he conceives of the gopis as heavenly damsels.
Look at these verses (SB 10.1.22-23)
"Lord Brahmä informed the demigods: Before we submitted our petition to the Lord, He was already aware of the distress on earth. Consequently, for as long as the Lord moves on earth to diminish its burden by His own potency in the form of time, all of you demigods should appear through plenary portions as sons and grandsons in the family of the Yadus. Bhagavan, the para purusa, will personally appear in the house of Vasudeva. Therefore all the wives of the demigods should also appear in order to satisfy Him."
Then look at the commentaries of Sanatana Goswami, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Srila Prabhupada, etc. We are reading the Bhagavata through their eyes, premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. Just se how much more important the sadhu is than the scripture!! If it were not for our acaryas how would we know the importance of the Bagavatam in the first palce? No one else gives it such importance, although any unbiased reader will have to note the theological sophistication of the Bhagavata far exceeds that of any other Purana, or any other scripture for that matter.
The Bhagavata is our book. No vaidhi marg sampradaya makes that claim and no vaidhi marg sampradaya will ever understand the Bhagavata as well as those whose spirituall life orbits around it—srimad bagavatam amalam puranam yad vaisnavanam priyam.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 9, 2006 6:37 pm
I have been contemplating the terms vaidhi and raganuga, and I have made a breakthrough that I believe gives a more nuanced understanding of the terms than we have yet come to on this thread.
Seeing vaidhi and raganuga as distinct paths, one leading to Vaikuntha and the other to Goloka, is problematic for various reasons. The chief problem is that raganuga is inextricably entwined with vaidhi. Indeed, the main limb of raganuga-bhakti (smaranam, fueled by kirtanam) is itself a limb of vaidhi-bhakti. Secondly, there is a tendency to see vaidhi as being lower and some elusive "raganuga" practices as being higher. However, there is no raganuga practice per se that is exclusive to raganuga. Whether one is practicing vaidhi or raganuga depends wholly on one's motivation or consciousness: "Actually, when one follows vidhi-marga prompted by sacred greed, that is called raganuga-bhakti, and when one follows vidhi-marga and is prompted by scriptural injuctions, that is called vidhi bhakti." (Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Raga-vartma-candrika 12)
The above quote establishes that both raganuga and vaidhi-sadhakas follow vaidhi-bhakti, despite the confusion that this statement produces. The difference is that one is impelled by sacred greed and the other is not. Therefore, to the extent that we have greed rather than any other motivation for sadhana, we call our sadhana "raganuga." If you look at being on the path of vaidhi or raganuga not as discrete paths or even discrete stages on a path (black and white), but rather as a gradation of two colors (many shades of gray), you will have a more accurate conception of the two terms.
At the stage of ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana, our greed is slight. This is evidenced by the fact that we still have greed for worldy things. At the stage of ruci, all our material attachments will soon melt away (Brs. 1.2.254), and at asakti, all mundane attractions are completely removed from the heart. Therefore, at these stages, the gradation from white to black is clearly approaching the darker shades of gray: jata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana. When the gradation is the lighter shades of gray, we have ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana. Please note that as black is not the absence of all colors, but rather contains all colors, so too raganuga is not the absence of vaidhi but rather the transformation or coloring of vaidhi. Actually, in our example, raga should not be conceived of as black, but rather as red: "The Sanskrit root from which raga comes means 'to color.' The heart becomes colored, just as when you take a crystal prism and put a red flower next to it, it will become red. Similarly, when the soul becomes like crystal, sphatika-mani, clear like a lake and clean of all impurities, then in touch with Krsna it takes a special color, an emotion." (Swami B. V. Tripurari, "Coloring the Heart") So greed colors our practice of vaidhi-bhakti, giving it a luminous redish hue that transforms vaidhi into raganuga.
As nice as this may sound, we have one problem. Caitanya-caritamrta says:
aisvarya-jnane vidhi-bhajana kariya
vaikunthake yaya catur-vidha mukti pana
aisvarya-jnane—in knowledge of the opulences; vidhi—according to rules and regulations; bhajana—worship; kariya—doing; vaikunthake—to Vaikuntha; yaya—they go; catuh-vidha—four kinds; mukti—liberation; pana—achieving.
“By performing such regulated devotional service in awe and veneration, one may go to Vaikuntha and attain the four kinds of liberation."
We appear to be stuck: Vaidhi-bhakti takes one to Vaikuntha.
However, the problem disappears on a closer scrutiny of the text: the verse does not in fact say that by vaidhi-bhakti one goes to Vaikuntha. It says that by vaidhi-bhakti IN AWE AND VENERATION one goes to Vaikuntha. The Bengali confirms the same: aisvarya-jnane vidhi-bhajana.
Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura tells us that a devotee who is fixed in their conception of Krsna as the Supreme Lord has aisvarya-jnana. In contrast, the devotees of Vrindavana have madhurya-jnana. Madhurya-jnana is defined as follows: "That mood which does not cause a heart attack or even the slightest feelings of awe after seeing some display of his prowess, because feelings of intimacy are already firmly established in the heart." An example of madhurya-jnana is illuminating:
"Despite the fact that Sridama and Sudama and the other cowherd boys saw the demigods offering prayers and flowers to Krsna, there was not the slightest slackening of their pure fraternal love for Him visible in them, and the beautiful girls of Vraja remained fixed in their sweet romantic feelings for him despite hearing about His prowess. In the same way the pure parental love of Mother Yasoda was not diminished even slightly despite Nanda Maharaja’s consoling words to Vrajvasis. Her love for Krsna rather increased and thoughts like: “I am blessed that my son is the Supreme Lord Himself” appeared in her heart." (Raga-vartma-candrika 2.5)
In contrast, the feeling of loving Krsna as a son or friend is slackened when Vasudeva or Arjuna see Krsna's prowess: "Vasudeva tells Krsna and Balarama in Srimad Bhagavatam: “You are not our sons, but You are directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” And when Arjuna sees Krsna’s Universal Form in Bhagavad Gita chapter 11, he says: “O Krsna! Please forgive me for whatever I may have said to You in the past due to love and bewilderment!”
In conclusion, vaidhi-bhakti practiced in aisvarya-jnana takes one to Vaikuntha (up to Mathura or Dvaraka) and vaidhi-bhakti practiced with greed for madhurya-jnana gradually transforms vaidhi-bhakti to pure raganuga. When the greed is only slightly manifest (ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana), it is more akin to vaidhi-bhakti and can be called as such. When the greed is intense, the vaidhi-sadhana is transformed into raganuga-sadhana. Thus the use of vaidhi for ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana by Bhaktivinode Thakur and those coming in his line is completely appropriate. Bhaktivinode Parivara ki jaya!
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 9, 2006 8:46 pm
If you look at being on the path of vaidhi or raganuga not as discrete paths or even discrete stages on a path (black and white), but rather as a gradation of two colors (many shades of gray), you will have a more accurate conception of the two terms.
Sounds good, but destination is pretty "black and white" -- it’s either Vaikuntha or Goloka. According to your theory, transition from aisvarya-jnana to madhurya-jnana is gradual. So, what happens with bhaktas who are in the middle? Do they go to "purgatory" so to speak, or where?
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 9, 2006 9:23 pm
"One who aspires after the closest amour with the Divine Beloved and is guided at the same time always by the strict injunctions of the Scriptures only in the path of Vaidhi-Bhakti attains Queen-consorthood in Dvaraka." (Brs. 1.2.303)
As mentioned previously, there are other "shades of gray," i.e. Pandavas, Yadavas, Kubja, etc.
Babhru Das - December 9, 2006 9:41 pm
I really like Vrindaranya's analysis; it explains a lot and harmonizes things quite nicely. I also like its conciseness (mitam ca saram ca vaco. . .).
There's something from Swami's Gita I haven't seen here yet, which I thinks help make things clearer (by, in some ways, effacing the line between vaidhi and raganuga bhakti), found in his commentary on Bg. 12.10. I have shared this often with devotees among whom I move, and they seem to find it helpful. Because I don't have the book in electronic form, I have the pleasure of typing this out, which increases the benefit to me.
When [a person doing Krishna's work] engages in Krishna's work and the rituals related to this work with a view to tread the path of love, he well gradually advance to the point of being eligible for internal service on the path of love. Although the path of ritual has its own end wherein a devotee attains love of God steeped in a sense of his majesty, it can also be engaged in with a view to attain love of Krishna in intimacy. When one engages in vaidhi-bhakti with a desire to progress to the direct culture of raganuga-bhakti, centering his devotional culture on chanting the nama of Krishna, his success is sure. In this regard, in his song Krishna-nama dhare kata bala, Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings, vidhi-marga-rata-jane svadhinata-ratna-dhane raga-marge karan pravesha: "That person fixed in following vaidhi-bhakti attains the jewel of independence (through the grace of Krishna nama), by which he is placed on the path of raganuga-bhakti." In the same song Bhaktivinoda Thakura clearly explains that experience os one's internal spiritual form (svarupa) required for the culture of raganuga-bhakti proper is revealed by the grace of Krishna nama:
isat vikasi punah dkhaya nija rupa guna
citta hari laya krishna pasa
purna vikasita hana vraja more haya lana
dekhaya nija svrupa vilasa
"When the name is even slightly revealed it shows me my own spiritual form and characteristics. It steals my mind and takes it to Krishna's side. When the name is fully revealed, it takes me directly to Vraja, where it shows me my personal role in the eternal pastimes."
So it seems things aren't all quite as black and white as we may think. And it's clear from all this discussion that everything needed for ultimate success, whatever that may be for an individual bhakta, is made completely avaiable by our guru varga.
With regard to Nanda-tanuja's question, it would seem from Gopa-kumar's example in Brihat-Bhagavatamrita that a sadhana built on Krishna nama may move us throught the strata of the Vaikuntha lokas to our ultimate destination, so there's no scope for any kind of limbo or purgatory.
Madangopal - December 9, 2006 9:44 pm
So, what happens with bhaktas who are in the middle? Do they go to "purgatory" so to speak, or where?
The "middle" is worshippers of Dvaraka or Mathura Krsna, with some sense of Krsna's godhood, adherence to sravanam, kirtanam, etc. without laulyam, but dharmic sense. Just like GM gives the example of Rukmini, she had to follow some system of marriage, she sent a letter to Krsna suggesting he kidnap her, she was married according to a certain rite, etc. Contrast that with the gopis: They heard Krsna's flute and walked out on their kids, husbands, etc. They just walked right out the door.
Another easy way for me to think about the difference is in how Prabhupada said that we worship the deities in the mood of Laxmi-Narayan. That is vaidhi. We are not putting simple cloth on the deity or offering Him balls of chappati flour w/o salt. We worship with opulence. In the beginning we do sravanam, kirtanam, etc. because the guru tells us to. Through that following we will develop the proper understanding if we are in an environment (association) that cultivates it. Of course most important is not to think that our end goal is worship of Krsna in vaidhi bhakti (would it be fair to say that ISKCON leans dangerously toward this direction?). We want to cultivate the proper understanding to start merging into the grey, where krsna starts to lose his godhood.
Also significant to this discussion is the way in which the processes of devotional service, sravanam, kirtanam, etc. are integral parts of the practice of both vaidhi and raganuga bhaktas. As smaranam is thought to be integral to the practice of raganuga, BSST, following the lead of Mahaprabhu advocates kirtan as the means and the end, perfect for vaidhi's development into raganuga. From Guru Maharaj's Sri Guru Parampara:
Kirtana can be practiced by all, whereas smaranam requires a degree of purity for its practice to be effective. Smaranam in turn enables one to derive more benefit from kirtana... Smaranam is not a mental practice, but rather the result of subjugating the mind, and kirtana is most effective in bringing about this subjugation. Thus, although raganuga bhakti involves smaranam, kirtana is its primary limb.
Now this is interesting... Nectar from BSST:
Anartha-nivrtti is necessary until artha-pravrtti has started. When artha-pravrtti is present, then anartha-nivrtti becomes unimportant - artha-pravrtti becomes prominent. Those who have chanted hari-nama for fifteen or twenty years should know such things.
Babhru Das - December 9, 2006 9:49 pm
Thanks for this, Madan. Yet another plug for Sri Guru-parampara, a book I have plugged everywhere and distributed as well. (My numbers aren't big, but I do get books to folks here and there. )
Swami - December 9, 2006 10:50 pm
With regard to my statement in SGP cited by Madangopala (kirtana is the primary limb of raganuga bhakti) my wording there could have been better. According to Brs the main limb of raganuga-sadhana is smaranam and this is further supported by kirtanam. However, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura points out elewhwere that although this is ture, smaranam is nonetheless dependent upon kirtanam for it to be effective. Futhermore, in kali-yuga bhajana life is accessible to all through kirtanam and all of the scriptures proclaim that Kirtana is the very best limb of bhakti. This is the spirit of what I intended to say.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 9, 2006 11:20 pm
As mentioned previously, there are other "shades of gray," i.e. Pandavas, Yadavas, Kubja, etc.
it would seem from Gopa-kumar's example in Brihat-Bhagavatamrita that a sadhana built on Krishna nama may move us throught the strata of the Vaikuntha lokas to our ultimate destination
Pandavas (SB 1.15.47-48) obtained "narayana-pade" which means Vaikuntha
Yadavas became drunk and killed one another and by Krsna and Balarama (SB 11.30.24) so probably Vaikuntha as well
Kubja is bhu-sakti (Lakshmi?) -- Vaikuntha
It seems that unless you hit a "bullseye" you will end up on one of the Vaikuntha lokas. Correct?
Madangopal - December 9, 2006 11:55 pm
With regard to my statement in SGP cited by Madangopala (kirtana is the primary limb of raganuga bhakti) my wording there could have been better.
You have supplied all the context in the book to make that point that kirtan is the best means to attain smaranam and even to the effect that smaranam is better facilitated by kirtanam.
Interestingly, you reference Bs. 273 for that statement. If I'm right that that is Bhakti Sandarba, the following verse from 273 lends strong support to your statement with the proper emphasis you are clarifying.
verse 16: In every yuga kirtana (glorification of the Lord) is equally powerful. However, by the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is especially to be performed in Kali-yuga. Therefore in Kali-yuga it is praised as being most important. In Kali-yuga the other activities of devotional service should be performed in connection with kirtana.
Swami - December 10, 2006 12:14 am
Pandavas (SB 1.15.47-48) obtained "narayana-pade" which means Vaikuntha
Yadavas became drunk and killed one another and by Krsna and Balarama (SB 11.30.24) so probably Vaikuntha as well
Kubja is bhu-sakti (Lakshmi?) -- Vaikuntha
It seems that unless you hit a "bullseye" you will end up on one of the Vaikuntha lokas. Correct?
Incorrect.
These devotees are all eternal associates of Krsna. Kubja is ragatmika praya (almost ragatmika-prema) and resides eternaly in Mathura. The Yadavas reside in Dvaraka and thus descend with Dvarakadisha and then return to his abode. Pandavas are also in Dvaraka and elsewhwere as well, including Radha kunda in the form of trees! All of these devotees are vaidhi bhaktas with some mix of raga.
As has been pointed out, vaidhi bhakti can take one to Goloka, but not to Vraja.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 10, 2006 1:07 am
Thank you for clarification, I guess in my mind I've equated Goloka and Vraja.
Swami - December 10, 2006 1:39 am
Thank you for clarification, I guess in my mind I've equated Goloka and Vraja.
Goloka:
Vraja
Mathura
Dvaraka
Svetadvipa
svetadvipa nama navadvipa grama
There are outlying areas as well, but no one can describe it all. It is Maha Vaikuntha! Thakura Bhaktivinoda has advised us not to worry about tying to completely understand descriptions of it like those found in Sri Brahma-samhita, but rather to try to go there, try to go there, try to go there, go there, go there, go, go, go, 
goloka
Swami - December 10, 2006 2:18 am
"Some knowers of rasa say that Navadwipa is identical with Vrindavana. Other very learned persons say it is Goloka, some say Svetadvipa, some say the spiritual sky, glory to the wonderfully splendid Navadwipa."
Sri Kavi Karnapura
Kavikarnapura and Vrindavana dasa concur: Nadiya is eternally situated in Goloka. So to does Sri Jiva Goswami, who refers covertly to it as Parama Svetadvipa in Gopala Campu, that place where the object of love becomes its asraya.
Vivek - December 10, 2006 6:34 pm
Maharaja, you said that there are seperate planets for each avatara of narayana, but i remember you saying that there is no seperate planet for narsingha deva in particular, it is just that narayana sometimes appears as narsingha deva in vaikuntha. Also is the conception of Ayodhya found in Brhat Bhag. wherein ayodhya is put above vaikuntha in rasa different from the conception where Ramachandra is seen as avatar of naryana and hence is subordinate to him.
Sometimes the different opinions of different sampradayas and for that matter even acaryas of same sampradaya always tend to bring the subjectivity which is coloured by bhava of the devotee. So is it ulimately possible to be objective when your vision will always be coloured by the bhava you have.
Swami - December 11, 2006 2:29 am
Maharaja, you said that there are seperate planets for each avatara of narayana, but i remember you saying that there is no seperate planet for narsingha deva in particular, it is just that narayana sometimes appears as narsingha deva in vaikuntha. Also is the conception of Ayodhya found in Brhat Bhag. wherein ayodhya is put above vaikuntha in rasa different from the conception where Ramachandra is seen as avatar of naryana and hence is subordinate to him.
Sometimes the different opinions of different sampradayas and for that matter even acaryas of same sampradaya always tend to bring the subjectivity which is coloured by bhava of the devotee. So is it ulimately possible to be objective when your vision will always be coloured by the bhava you have.
It is all bhava. Seperate planets means seperate experience, which can take place in the same place—wherever that is. Narayana may show himself as Krsna or Rama, but this is different from Goloka or Ayodhya. When he does so there is no real possibility of entering into their lilas as a player. Rather the lilas are witnessed in trance as part of the wonder that is Narayana, who is being served in dasya or santa rasa. His devotees may like these lilas very much, but they have no svarupa to participate in them as cowherds, etc.
In order to understand all of this you have to learn to stop thinking.
Niscala Dasi - December 11, 2006 10:18 am
As for your question, Bhaktivinoda Thakur sometimes called ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana "vaidhi-sadhana", to emphasise how important rules and regulations still are at this stage, even though the motivation for devotional practices isn't fear of sin. Ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana-bhakti will, under proper guidance and with time and enthusiasm, lead to jata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana-bhakti. In this sense, vaidhi can be said to lead to raga.
BP Siddhanti
I found it interesting as I progressed through this discussion, that fear of sin is mentioned for the first time. From the other posts, alll scripturally based, I gleaned that the difference between the two paths was the motivation for following scripture versus devotion. But here we find a motivation for the motivation- fear of sin. This was interesting for me, as I was wondering what prompts someone to want to follow scripture so much that that becomes the whole basis of a lifetstyle of worship. It's kind of incomprehensible, but when you put the underlying motivation in, fear of sin, it makes sense.
How then is it bhakti at all? The karmis also want to avoid sin and reap happy rewards for their worship. Is the path to vaikuntha tainted by karma? Don't we who are on the raganuga path- though it may be ajata ruci- also have fear of reaction from past sins? I do. Is it not, the fear of future births, at least part of our motivation? If so, then surely though we worship two-handed Sri Krsna, we are on the path to vaikuntha, nonetheless. First deserve, then desire.
Could it be that the two paths are parallell but not running side by side? They both travel upwards but you can still hop off one and onto another and go further, when your attraction to the Lord and His service swallows up all your thought of your own happiness.
Sorry if these points have already been covered. If they have just let me know and I'll shut up and read the rest of the discussion. But I am just oh-so-curious, and short of time. We are moving house.
Madangopal - December 11, 2006 2:52 pm
Don't we who are on the raganuga path- though it may be ajata ruci- also have fear of reaction from past sins? I do. Is it not, the fear of future births, at least part of our motivation? If so, then surely though we worship two-handed Sri Krsna, we are on the path to vaikuntha, nonetheless.
This is a great question Niscala prabhu. In a sense, it is answered in this thread but you bring out more thoughts to consider.
Swami often talks about gradation of devotion as moving from selfishness to selflessness. Beyond even selflessness is self forgetfulness. As pointed out earlier in this thread, one may worship two handed Krsna in vaidhi (as you are putting it-fear based) bhakti and attain a higher destination than Vaikuntha, for example Mathura or Dvaraka. Devotees in these realms exhibit a devotion that has some degree of religiosity, fear, etc. though it is all in relation to Krsna. There exists no material self interest in such devotees, but spiritual self interest may remain to varying extents. Moving into Vraja, there is no material and no spiritual self interest. The gopis are heralded as the greatest devotees because they have not just become selfless, they have become self-forgetful. They live only for Krsna. Think of the story of the gopis searching for a cure for Krsna's headache. They would offer the dust from their feet to cure his headache! What would the queens of Dvaraka think about that proposal?
So I think that fear of reaction from past sins is symptomatic of a vaidhi or ajata-ruci raganuga bhakti. As ruci develops and one progresses further, one will forget oneself in the service of Krsna. "No fear" really results from absorption in the object of love. If I have forgotten myself in love and service to Krsna, my own pleasure/pain is inconsequential to me.
How then is it bhakti at all? The karmis also want to avoid sin and reap happy rewards for their worship.
From Prabhupada's Gita purport 7.16
Those who are always busy with fruitive activities come to the Lord in material distress and at that time associate with pure devotees and become, in their distress, devotees of the Lord.
As Gita says, people come to this path for different reasons, one being fear. But you get more than you bargained for on this path. Enter self interested , leave self-forgetful.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 11, 2006 3:27 pm
the fear of future births
if you are serving then future births are not a problem at all
the angle of vision changes everything
Cc. Antya 20.47:
Let Krsna tightly embrace this maidservant who has fallen at His lotus feet, or let Him trample Me or break My heart by never being visible to Me. He is a debauchee, after all, and can do whatever He likes, but still He alone, and no one else, is the worshipable Lord of My heart.
Swami - December 11, 2006 5:16 pm
Madan Gopala has given a good answer to Niscala's question, and Vrindaranya has made some excellent posts on this thread.
Here is something else to consider in light of Niscala's questions:
Speaking to members of the vaidhi marg in the Madhva Sampradaya,
prabhu kahe,-karmi, jnani,—dui bhakti-hina
tomara sampradaye dekhi sei dui cihna
"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, 'Both the karmi and jnani are considered nondevotees. We see both elements present in your sampradaya.'"
Fear, prospect, duty and love, these are the four motives for serving God. In the optimum the pure vaidhi marg focused on Vaikuntha prema is motivated by duty: to serve because it is the right thing to do, because sastra commands it—we must follow the laws of God. Do your duty and reap the fruit of mukti.
Although Sri Rupa says that there is prema in Vaikuntha, it is interesting to note that vaidhi marg sampradayas do not use this term in describing their sdahya (goal/prayojana). They call it "mukti." The want devotional mukti, and this desire is an impediment to priti, or the full face of prema, ragatmika prema.
Vivek - December 12, 2006 5:37 am
Sometimes some acharyas in other sampradayas do exhibit spiritual selflessness prominent among them being sri ramanujacarya. He gave the secret mantra to everybody from the top of the temple, even though warned by his guru of harsh consequences of making this secret mantra public.But he said that it is better that conditioned souls get the benefit and he go to hell rather than he get the benefit alone.
Does it count as some sort of priti instead of the mukti defined above for the followers of vaidi bhakti sampradayas.
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 12, 2006 5:58 am
I’d like to understand more about the significance of the Gaura asta-kaliya-lila. How does it factor into this discussion on raganuga bhakti?
Madangopal - December 12, 2006 12:28 pm
I’d like to understand more about the significance of the Gaura asta-kaliya-lila. How does it factor into this discussion on raganuga bhakti?
ooooohhh! The nectar is gonna get sweeter, I can feel it.
I've been reading Golden Volcano of Divine Love. Pujyapada Sridhar Maharaj says:
An investment in Navadwipa Dhama will automatically take one to Vrndavana. How one has been carried there will be unknown to him. But those who have good fortune invest everything in the service of Gauranga. If they do that, they will find that everything has automatically been offered to the divine feet of Srimati Radharani. She will accept them in Her confidential service and give them engagement, saying, "Oh, you have a good recommendation from Navadwipa; I immediately appoint you to this service."
Bhrigu - December 12, 2006 12:39 pm
I would like to play purvapaksin this time, Vrindaranya!
All of this Gaura-asta-kaliya-lila etc is all poetic and sweet, but since the Goswamis or other early acharyas did not write anything about it, it is simply a later, sentimental addition to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. It is not only a harmless fantasy, but can lead to all kinds of strange things, such as Gaura-nagara-bhava, multiple svarupas, etc. Therefore, it should be clearly pointed out that Gaura's lila is eternal only in the sense that it is eternally repeated in different material universes.
Swami - December 12, 2006 4:43 pm
I’d like to understand more about the significance of the Gaura asta-kaliya-lila. How does it factor into this discussion on raganuga bhakti?
When Sri Krsna desires to taste ragatmika-prema he manifest Garua's eightfold daily lila. So if you want to taste, this should be your starting point. In his gaura-lila he is showing us the way. Becasue this lila is so generous (audarya) it is more accessible to sadhakas than Krsna lila. We will serve there as brahmin boys. so you may think of your perfected sadhaka deha as such and remember Gaura's eternal daily lila or sing about it if you cannot meditate on it. You may think, "By the grace of my guru let me reside eternally in Navadwipa Dhama, the abode of worship, where Rasaraja tastes ragatmika prema as the asraya (shelter) of prema as opposed tot he visaya (object) of prema in the form of Sri Garuacandra, and as he enters Krsna-lila may I enter there as well in a suitible svarupa."
Swami - December 12, 2006 5:29 pm
I would like to play purvapaksin this time, Vrindaranya!
All of this Gaura-asta-kaliya-lila etc is all poetic and sweet, but since the Goswamis or other early acharyas did not write anything about it, it is simply a later, sentimental addition to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. It is not only a harmless fantasy, but can lead to all kinds of strange things, such as Gaura-nagara-bhava, multiple svarupas, etc. Therefore, it should be clearly pointed out that Gaura's lila is eternal only in the sense that it is eternally repeated in different material universes.
At best, this notion is way out of the mainstream of Gaudiya Vaisnavism as it has been praticed for hundreds of years, and at its worst it is dhama aparadha.
No early acaryas spoke of the nitya lila of Gaura?
1. Kavikarnapura (says Navadwipa is Goloka: Gauragonnodesa dipika)
2. Vrndavana dasa Thakura (says Navadwipa is Svetadvipa: Caitanya Bhagavata)
3. Dhyanacandra Goswami (teaches smaranam on the aprakata Gaura-lila:Sri Gaura-Govindarcanana-smarana-padhati)
4. Prabhodananda Saraswati Thakura (says Navadwipa is Goloka and that eternal residence there is his goal, etc.:Sri Navadvipa-sataka)
These four have written directly about it and Sri Jiva Goswami has done so covertly in his Gopala Campu, as explined by Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Regarding Vrindavana dasa Thakura's writing, he has also stated that more about Gaura's pastimes will be revealed in the furutre. He writes,
svetadvipa-nama, navadvipa-dhama
vede prakasir pache
"Later, the Vedas will reveal that Navadvipa-dhama is non-different from Svetadvipa." (Here Svetadvipa refers to Goloka)
—(Caitanya-bhagavata, Madhya-khanda 23. 290)
This is what Bhaktivinoda Thakura, the Seventh Goswami, has done, as have others including
Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura (Sriman Mahaprabhor-asta-kaliya-lila-smarana-mangala-stotram),
Siddha Krsnadas (Gaura-govindaracana-paddhati )
etc.
Bhrigu - December 12, 2006 8:31 pm
Thank you for this reply, Guru Maharaja! I didn't know about that CB quote. I have personally thought that the Goswamis didn't directly write about Gaura's nitya-lila but left that to others, since others might have considered that idea too "Bengali" and difficult to understand. Could that be a plausible explanation?
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 12, 2006 9:31 pm
When Sri Krsna desires to taste ragatmika-prema he manifest Garua's eightfold daily lila. So if you want to taste, this should be your starting point. In his gaura-lila he is showing us the way. Becasue this lila is so generous (audarya) it is more accessible to sadhakas than Krsna lila. We will serve there as brahmin boys. so you may think of your perfected sadhaka deha as such and remember Gaura's eternal daily lila or sing about it if you cannot meditate on it. You may think, "By the grace of my guru let me reside eternally in Navadwipa Dhama, the abode of worship, where Rasaraja tastes ragatmika prema as the asraya (shelter) of prema as opposed tot he visaya (object) of prema in the form of Sri Garuacandra, and as he enters Krsna-lila may I enter there as well in a suitible svarupa."
Thank you for this reply Guru Maharaja.
It made me think of a quote by BSST that was mentioned in our study group. "True beauty is acting according to one's adhikara." Mahaprabhu gave us a simple and natural path to prema. If we do what we can do (what other choice do we have really) under good guidance then there is an honesty and beauty in it. An opportunity to make genuine progress.
Swami - December 12, 2006 9:54 pm
Thank you for this reply, Guru Maharaja! I didn't know about that CB quote. I have personally thought that the Goswamis didn't directly write about Gaura's nitya-lila but left that to others, since others might have considered that idea too "Bengali" and difficult to understand. Could that be a plausible explanation?
There may some merit to this suggestion. They were introducing the smapradaya and to say everything at once is not always possible. Just see how Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja has dealt with Gadadhara tattva in Cc. There he is introducing the milita tanu doctrine (oneness of Gaura and Radha Krsna). That is a lot of theology to digest. He may have reasoned that turn around in the same treatise and explain that Gadadhara is also Radha might be too much for his readers. You idea is similar and worth considering as part of an explanation as to why Rupa and Sanatana have not written about the asta-kaliya lila of Mahaprabhu.
For that matter only Sri Rupa has written about Radha Krsna's eightfold daily lila, and that in about eleven verses. Not much on this form the Goswmis at all. However, their follower, Krsnadasa Kaviraja, later elaborated on Sri Rupa's eleven verses in 2200 some verses found in his Govinda-lilamrta.
Niscala Dasi - December 12, 2006 10:35 pm
So I think that fear of reaction from past sins is symptomatic of a vaidhi or ajata-ruci raganuga bhakti. As ruci develops and one progresses further, one will forget oneself in the service of Krsna. "No fear" really results from absorption in the object of love. If I have forgotten myself in love and service to Krsna, my own pleasure/pain is inconsequential to me.
Thanks for this input prabhu, but my problem is it contradicts with BPSiddhanta's assertion:
"As for your question, Bhaktivinoda Thakur sometimes called ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana "vaidhi-sadhana", to emphasise how important rules and regulations still are at this stage, even though the motivation for devotional practices isn't fear of sin. Ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana-bhakti will, under proper guidance and with time and enthusiasm, lead to jata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana-bhakti. In this sense, vaidhi can be said to lead to raga."
Here he says that even ajata-ruci-raganuga sadhana is distinguished by lack of fear and that this distinguishes it from vaidhi, not the rules and regulations- by which the two are sometimes equated-, but the motivation.
So, my question is- can one jump from the vaidhi to the raganuga path when one is sufficently purified of selfishness? And if so, then why are called separate paths? And if not, then it is like saying that you cannot change your motivation for service, and I have a problem with that. You not only can change, you should change.
The quote from BP Siddhanta raises another question. If one is not following the rules and regulations out of self-interest- fear- then one must be doing so out of love, because one is convinced that doing so pleases the Lord. But if one has that motivation then sometimes one breaks the rules for the Lord's pleasure- like the gopis giving their footdust to cure Krishna's headache. That places them in the Vraja category- pure love. But those in the Goloka category would not- why? Is it because their love is mixed with fear, or is it because they are ignorant of what pleases Krishna most? But fear and ignorance are absent in Vaikuntha, by definition. So that's another problem.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 13, 2006 5:22 pm
I found it interesting as I progressed through this discussion, that fear of sin is mentioned for the first time. From the other posts, alll scripturally based, I gleaned that the difference between the two paths was the motivation for following scripture versus devotion. But here we find a motivation for the motivation- fear of sin. This was interesting for me, as I was wondering what prompts someone to want to follow scripture so much that that becomes the whole basis of a lifetstyle of worship. It's kind of incomprehensible, but when you put the underlying motivation in, fear of sin, it makes sense.
I think it is too limited to say that the motivation for following scripture on the vaidhi marg is fear. What about other motivations like distress, prospect, curiosity, knowledge, duty, etc.? Furthermore, if someone starts out being motivated by fear, that motivation will change with purification. In the optimum, vaidhi bhakti is motivated by dutiful love.
How then is it bhakti at all? The karmis also want to avoid sin and reap happy rewards for their worship. Is the path to vaikuntha tainted by karma? Don't we who are on the raganuga path- though it may be ajata ruci- also have fear of reaction from past sins? I do. Is it not, the fear of future births, at least part of our motivation? If so, then surely though we worship two-handed Sri Krsna, we are on the path to vaikuntha, nonetheless. First deserve, then desire.
When one begins the path of bhakti, one is indeed tainted by desire for karma and jnana; however, this becomes purified through the process of bhakti. In one sense, it is only the generosity of the devotees that those with kanistha adhikara are considered devotees at all.
The difference between someone purely on the vaidhi marg and one at the stage of ajata ruci-raganuga-sadhana is that a desire for serving Krsna in Vraja has awakened in the ajata-raganuga-sadhaka. Otherwise, the two are very similar. Because of this desire, the ajata-raganuga-sadhaka is on the path to Vraja.
Could it be that the two paths are parallell but not running side by side? They both travel upwards but you can still hop off one and onto another and go further, when your attraction to the Lord and His service swallows up all your thought of your own happiness.
It is problematic to see vaidhi and raganuga as discrete paths (one leads to Vaikuntha, the other to Vraja), because although vaidhi practiced in awe and reverence leads to Vaikuntha, vaidhi practiced with a mixed desire for Vraja bhakti (ajata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana) leads to jata-ruci-raganuga-sadhana, at which point one’s lobha (desire for serving Krsna in one of the four sentiments) is much deeper and one therefore is on the raga-marg proper: one is not motivated by a sense of fear or duty. Therefore, it is easier to see vaidhi motivated not by awe and reverence but rather a desire for Vraja (admittedly mixed with other desires as well) and pure raganuga as a gradation, not separate paths, because they overlap. No one comes to the raga marg with perfectly pure motives; if one did, there would be no need for raganuga, one would already be a ragatmika.
Here he says that even ajata-ruci-raganuga sadhana is distinguished by lack of fear and that this distinguishes it from vaidhi, not the rules and regulations- by which the two are sometimes equated-, but the motivation.
It would be more accurate to say that fear isn’t the only motivation.
So, my question is- can one jump from the vaidhi to the raganuga path when one is sufficently purified of selfishness? And if so, then why are called separate paths? And if not, then it is like saying that you cannot change your motivation for service, and I have a problem with that. You not only can change, you should change.
Yes, good point. This is why it is problematic to see them as discrete paths. Certainly one can and does become purified of selfishness. This happens as one progresses from ajata-ruci (vaidhi) to jata-ruci (raganuga).
The quote from BP Siddhanta raises another question. If one is not following the rules and regulations out of self-interest- fear- then one must be doing so out of love, because one is convinced that doing so pleases the Lord.But if one has that motivation then sometimes one breaks the rules for the Lord's pleasure- like the gopis giving their footdust to cure Krishna's headache. That places them in the Vraja category- pure love.
To say that if one doesn't have fear, one must have love is not necessarily true. One can be motivated by duty, not love. Further, if one has love, it does not follow that one will necessarily be willing to abandon duty for that love. There is a whole spectrum of love, and this is what makes for the different "spiritual planets." God shows a different face depending on the consciousness of the worshipper, and Krsna of Braja is God when he is fully himself.
But those in the Goloka category would not- why? Is it because their love is mixed with fear, or is it because they are ignorant of what pleases Krishna most? But fear and ignorance are absent in Vaikuntha, by definition. So that's another problem.
Do you mean Dwaraka? If so, they won't give Krsna their footdust because their love is mixed with awe and reverence. This gives them a less developed sense of Krsna. It doesn't compute that he might want their footdust. Why would he need footdust to cure his headache? Therefore, they think he must just be testing them.
Vivek - December 14, 2006 10:11 am
In some portions of the scriptures the associates of Lord Krsna or Ramacandra are described more like demigods who descended to earth to participate in lord's pastimes rather than devotees descending from spiritual world. Are both the descriptions equally valid or one is only a partial truth and the other is the complete truth.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - December 14, 2006 2:29 pm
Thank you for this discussion. It was really elevating. After reading it I chanted 2 extra rounds
Rather the lilas are witnessed in trance as part of the wonder that is Narayana, who is being served in dasya or santa rasa. His devotees may like these lilas very much, but they have no svarupa to participate in them as cowherds, etc.
I have a question. Is our svarupa predestined or it depends on our desire? Do we all already have our swarupas in different places of spiritual world and we just have to realize them, or we are building one. I am asking about it in this contecst because from the quote above I understood that devotees of Narayana may like (have desire to participate?) lila of Krsna, but they can not enter there because they dont have swarupa there. So it seems to be that it doesn´t really depend on desire but we are who we are and we can not do much about it? On the other hand is it possible that we found ourselves on Gaudiya Vaisnava path because our heart and our desire brought us here, meaning we were destine to travel this path, because our home is in Vraja, so we dont have to worry that if we are not careful we will "end up" in Vaikunthas instead of Vraja? Is our desire to go to Goloka sufficient evidence that our swarupa is there? How much this desire is just mindmade, or how much soulmade? I would be very happy to hear from you on these points.
Swami - December 15, 2006 4:39 pm
Thank you for this discussion. It was really elevating. After reading it I chanted 2 extra rounds
I have a question. Is our svarupa predestined or it depends on our desire? Do we all already have our swarupas in different places of spiritual world and we just have to realize them, or we are building one. I am asking about it in this contecst because from the quote above I understood that devotees of Narayana may like (have desire to participate?) lila of Krsna, but they can not enter there because they dont have swarupa there. So it seems to be that it doesn´t really depend on desire but we are who we are and we can not do much about it? On the other hand is it possible that we found ourselves on Gaudiya Vaisnava path because our heart and our desire brought us here, meaning we were destine to travel this path, because our home is in Vraja, so we dont have to worry that if we are not careful we will "end up" in Vaikunthas instead of Vraja? Is our desire to go to Goloka sufficient evidence that our swarupa is there? How much this desire is just mindmade, or how much soulmade? I would be very happy to hear from you on these points.
Does anyone know the answers to the above? Can anyone make and educated guess. It has been discussed in my books and Sangas, which you are all reading.
Rama-priya - December 15, 2006 5:28 pm
I know only that Lord Caitanya and His sankirtana movement gives light, power all other sampradayas and no mateer what is one's svarupe it can helps to achieve that goal. Many associates of Lord Gauranga were servants for examples of Rama and even brother of Rupa and Sanatana who had such holy association couldn't his Master - Ramacandra. As far as I undestood Guru Maharaja said that by holy association as in the example of brother of Rupa and Sanatana we discover that, what is inherent in our heart and in his instance it was the love for Lord Ramacandara.
Y.s.
Ramapriya
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 15, 2006 7:11 pm
I have a question. Is our svarupa predestined or it depends on our desire? Do we all already have our swarupas in different places of spiritual world and we just have to realize them, or we are building one.
According to Bhaktivinode Thakur and his followers it is neither one or the other but it is both inherant and in need of cultivation. He explained that the svarupa is manifest in the jiva as a particle form of sat cid ananda and needs to be cultivated through diksa and corresponding instructions and sadhana in order for it to fully manifest.
BVT interpreted statements such as (Madhya lila 22.107) nitya-siddha krsna-prema 'sädhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya "Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of all living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting about Krsna, that love naturally awakens” in the way stated above.
I am asking about it in this contecst because from the quote above I understood that devotees of Narayana may like (have desire to participate?) lila of Krsna, but they can not enter there because they dont have swarupa there.
I think one way to look at it from my limited understanding is in terms of some devotees in Vaikuntha desiring to participate in Vraja-lila more as a function of establishing the supremacy of Vraja-bhakti. So there are examples of devotees outside Vraja like Narada desiring to become a gopi or Siva wanting to enter the rasa dance or Laksmi wanting to enter the rasa dance.
Ian Laycock - December 15, 2006 8:40 pm
Hello everyone. Im going to try and get involved in this very interesting discussion even though most of these topics are way over my head. Please excuse me for not contributing anything new, but after reading Madhavendra Puri dasa's questions I just wanted to see if I could understand these topics properly. I read pages 191 to195 of Aesthetic Vedanta a couple times to try and understand these points. Im just gonna paraphrase a bit, Id be greatfull for your imput if im understanding properly or please correct me if I've got it wrong.
"I have a question. Is our svarupa predestined or it depends on our desire? Do we all already have our swarupas in different places of spiritual world and we just have to realize them, or we are building one."
Tripurari Maharaja on page 193 explains that there are unlimited forms of svarupas in Krsna's domain and that He is eternally engaged in relationships with them. So the svarups are always existing and the rasa is always existing and its just a matter of waking up to this by having a clean heart from chanting and sankirtan. And when the mirror of the heart is clean it properly reflects the emotions and sentiments of the associates of Krsna. Then as to which catagory our svarup is, although existing eternally in a dormant state, it comes from the particular ideal that we got from guru. And then that would be realized either by Guru telling us when he knew that our heart was cleaned, or internally when our heart was clear enough to reflect it properly. Im not sure if the ideal that one gets from guru is a desire or not?
"On the other hand is it possible that we found ourselves on Gaudiya Vaisnava path because our heart and our desire brought us here, meaning we were destine to travel this pat"
So I guess this would be true because we have affection for a guru in the line of Caitanya.
Sorry I feel a bit dumb because these topics are way beyond me. And Im just parroting what Ive read but please let me know if Ive understood this correctly or if I've jumbled it all up. Thanks 
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 15, 2006 11:36 pm
On the other hand is it possible that we found ourselves on Gaudiya Vaisnava path because our heart and our desire brought us here, meaning we were destine to travel this path, because our home is in Vraja, so we dont have to worry that if we are not careful we will "end up" in Vaikunthas instead of Vraja? Is our desire to go to Goloka sufficient evidence that our swarupa is there? How much this desire is just mindmade, or how much soulmade? I would be very happy to hear from you on these points.
Okay I am going to take a crack at this one with extremely limited knowledge.
I think in a simple way one can understand that if he/she is attracted to hearing from an anuragi devotee then they are being guided in their natural attraction.
We get sacred greed from an anuragi devotee (or in rare instances Krsna Himself). For that initial lobha to develop we are dependent on such sadhu sanga. So if we were hearing from such a sadhu it would seem natural that our greed would grow in that way.
I think perhaps more relevant to this discussion is the idea of being “detoured” from the raga marga due to perhaps insufficient or improper guidance. In that sense one may become more vaidhi oriented in his practice. Yet even so it does not connote a Vaikutha destination.
I have heard it described that if one begins on the raga-marga but still feels that it is not proper to give up all the rules prescribed in the revealed scripture such as hearing about the Queens of Dwarka, etc., then he or she will attain a position in Dwarka as explained in the verse “One who has the great desire to have conjugal relationship with the Lord, but who worships him solely with viddhi bhakti will become a Queen of Dvarka.” ( BRS 1.2.203.) This describe a destination outside of Vraja yet I think in a simple way again we can understand that if we are attracted to hearing from an anuragi devotee and we are under such guidance this is not a concern. VCT recommended that one should be wise at selecting those angas of vaidhi which are condusive for raganuga bhakti. It is described that a raganuga sadhaka does not follow certain limbs of vaidhi bhakti namely, identifying with the object of worship during arcana, using mudras or nyasa, meditating on Krsna's pastimes in Dvarka, and worshipping Krsna's Queens in Dvarka.
In the context of ISKCON and SP’s extremely far-reaching mission, I imagine there have been cases where devotees eventually found themselves seeking shelter in other sampradayas. But I think this is something that ideally should not be done whimsically.
I am not sure what you mean by “mindmade” and “soul made”. Mind made seems to denote imagination. One can imagine a relationship they have with Krsna yet only after being completely free of material desires and at the stage of asakti can one actually glimpse his/her actual svarupa.
Vinode Vani Dasa - December 16, 2006 8:28 am
The svarupa of the jiva is the mature embodiment of its devotional sentiment. Imagine a fully grown tree, with all the leaves, branches, twigs, roots, etc. The materially conditioned soul is like a seed blowing in the wind. Through good fortune it manages to become implanted in favorable soil, which for us is the association of divine persons. At this time it becomes possible for us to realize our divine potential in the form of our svarupa. What that svarupa ultimately will be does depend on what kind of seed we are. When, through the cultivation of spiritual practices our devotion becomes firm, this svarupa will become more clear. While we worship the ideal of the gopis as the highest form of devotion, this does not necessarily mean that this is what we are. What we are will become clear in time as our devotion matures from general practices to specific sentiments. The potential that was there in seed form will become manifest as our innermost service desires awaken, creating the specific form of our svarupa. What this will look like is currently beyond all scope of our imagination, just as the fully grown tree cannot be conceived by looking at the seed. Only by going there will we truly understand it. We should become what it is we are meant to become; this will be the most perfect form for us, and the state in which we will feel fully satisfied. The desire that some spiritual beings have to experience the devotion of others is a sort of divine illusion, because there is no possibility of dissatisfaction in the spiritual world. All devotees in the spiritual world praise the gopis as the highest devotees, but they wouldn't give up their particular service to their particular form of the Lord for anything.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - December 16, 2006 10:26 am
So as I understood it: our swarupa is predestinated; we just have to work to make it grow and eventually realize it. Is it correct? So there is actually no danger that we will find ourselves by mistake in "improper" for us spiritual planet? So basic on this; souls who´s swarupa is this of Vraja will feel natural atraction for raganuga bhakti, and souls from Vaikuntha (or Mathura and Dvaraka) will feel atracted to vaidhi bhakti?
Still I am not completly sure about it, because for example we can see in Gaudiya sastra that spiritual adept may be warn that he doesnt associate closely with devotees being in the mood of owe and reverence. Why is that? Actually it reminds me one thing I heard somewhere (what a scientific approach-"somewhere" ) that even from Vaikuntha there is possible further grow. Is this related to the souls who were suppose to land in Vraja, but because of company Vaikuntha devotees they found themselves in some Vaikuntha, and there they are not completely satisfied?
Sorry for so many speculations in such a few sentences but I know I am asking in proper place.
I am not sure what you mean by “mindmade” and “soul made”. Mind made seems to denote imagination. One can imagine a relationship they have with Krsna yet only after being completely free of material desires and at the stage of asakti can one actually glimpse his/her actual svarupa.
When I say "mindmade" I mean attitude: "Oh this is so cool just to play with God, have a fun in the bushes, or just swim all day along in the river, and not to have worship in owe and reverence, what is probably boring and little stiff" 
And "soulmade" meaning that perhaps our deep, hidden in the corner of our heart spiritual and inborn desire of our oryginal nature is able to some extent influence our material mind, making it atracted to things which are connected with our swarupa (like for example pastimes of Krsna, or Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya).
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 16, 2006 4:58 pm
Sorry for so many speculations in such a few sentences but I know I am asking in proper place.
When I say "mindmade" I mean attitude: "Oh this is so cool just to play with God, have a fun in the bushes, or just swim all day along in the river, and not to have worship in owe and reverence, what is probably boring and little stiff"
And "soulmade" meaning that perhaps our deep, hidden in the corner of our heart spiritual and inborn desire of our oryginal nature is able to some extent influence our material mind, making it atracted to things which are connected with our swarupa (like for example pastimes of Krsna, or Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya).
Sorry I misunderstood your question which is a very interesting one.
Bhrigu - December 17, 2006 1:00 pm
It is described that a raganuga sadhaka does not follow certain limbs of vaidhi bhakti namely, identifying with the object of worship during arcana, using mudras or nyasa, meditating on Krsna's pastimes in Dvarka, and worshipping Krsna's Queens in Dvarka.
Just a small note: the word "mudra" here probably refers (as Guru Maharaja pointed out in the "tattoo-discussion") to branded marks, not marks made with the hands and fingers.
Re. the svarupa, I remember reading an interesting answer to that question in Keshava Maharaja's biography. Does anyone have that available?
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 17, 2006 5:52 pm
Just a small note: the word "mudra" here probably refers (as Guru Maharaja pointed out in the "tattoo-discussion") to branded marks, not marks made with the hands and fingers.
I was wondering about this? What about nyasa? What is that refering to exactly?
What does it mean to "identify with the object of worship during arcana" in the context of vaidhi bhakti ?
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 17, 2006 6:58 pm
Just a small note: the word "mudra" here probably refers (as Guru Maharaja pointed out in the "tattoo-discussion") to branded marks, not marks made with the hands and fingers.
I remember reading somewhere that it refers to the common understanding of mudras, i.e., symbols one makes during formal worship, such as the cakra-mudra. I guess it also refers to branded marks (mudra-dharana).
I suppose the Nyasa-mudras mentioned in Pancaratra-Pradipa must be a double whammy!
However, the Pancaratra-Pradipa quotes a verse from SB that says that the gopis did nyasa:
The gopis first executed the process of acamana, drinking a sip of water from the right hand. They purified their bodies and hands with the nyasa-mantra and then applied the same mantra upon the body of the child." (SB 10.6.21)
So, I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from this. It is interesting to note that according to Guru Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada didn't introduce mudras...with this discussion one does begin to wonder about the emphasis of the Pancaratna-Pradipa.
Swami - December 17, 2006 9:12 pm
The gopis first executed the process of acamana, drinking a sip of water from the right hand. They purified their bodies and hands with the nyasa-mantra and then applied the same mantra upon the body of the child." (SB 10.6.21)
Of course they did! All the ragatmikas follow vaidhi bhakti! Narasingha-sila is the household Deity of Nanda Maharaja!
I was wondering about this? What about nyasa? What is that refering to exactly?
Perhaps you should take san nyasa
Babhru Das - December 17, 2006 11:24 pm
Somebody's in a good mood today!
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 18, 2006 3:11 am
The "Swami Call" was ecstatic.
Unfortunately it wasn't recorded.
Babhru Das - December 18, 2006 3:18 am
aarrrgh! I came in for the last ten minutes or so, and I was hoping to hear the question Gaurangi asked that prompted such a wonderful answer. Guess I need to try harder to reorganize my Sunday mornings.
Bhrigu - December 18, 2006 8:15 am
I think that it is highly unlikely that Vishvanatha Cakravarti would have referred to two kinds of "mudra" by using only one word in the singular (RVC 14). Pandit Anantadas Babaji also understands it as referring to the tapta-mudras, branded marks.
Nyasa means "placing" and refers to ritually placing down mantras or parts of a mantra on different parts of one's own body or on that of someone else for purification or protection. Gaudiyas usually use the Gopala mantra. At least one such nyasa is described in the Bhagavatam, in connection with the Narayana armour in the sixth canto.
"Identifying oneself..." refers to Ahamgrahopasana, worshipping oneself (often through a mirror) as the Supreme. Prabhupada mentions in the Krishna book that Krishna did that in Dvaraka, but for him it is OK.
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 18, 2006 8:27 pm
I think that it is highly unlikely that Vishvanatha Cakravarti would have referred to two kinds of "mudra" by using only one word in the singular (RVC 14). Pandit Anantadas Babaji also understands it as referring to the tapta-mudras, branded marks.
Hmmm. I looked up this reference and his comments on RVC 12, which also says that raganuga sadhakas shouldn't practice mudras. Here is what his commentary says for RVC 12: "Mudra--to show signs to the demigods with both hands during formal worship. Avahani, sthapani, sannidhapani, sannirodhani, sakalikarana, avagunthani, amrti-karani and paramikarani--these eight mudras are being used. After that sankhya, cakra, gada, padma, musala, sarnga, khadga, pasa, ankusa, garuda, srivatsa, kaustubha, venu, abhaya, vara and vanamala are shown. At the time of offering asana also special mudras are shown--padma, svasti, artha, padya, acama and others, a total of sixteen." That comment together with the one in RVC 14 seem to indicate that both kinds of mudras are not favorable for raganuga sadhakas. Am I missing something?
Bhrigu - December 19, 2006 8:25 am
No, you're not, Vrindaranya, I was! I didn't notice the mention in RVC 12. I don't know which one VCT is referring to, but since he both times uses the same word in the singular, I still think that he seems to be speaking about only one thing. In a sense it would be more logical for it to refer to the finger signs, since most other prohibitions refer to arcana, but in today's Gaudiya Vaishnavism, everyone seems to do at least some such mudras (e.g. when establishing sacred water for the puja), while nobody takes the branded marks.
Otherwise, the end of text 12 is interesting for the main discussion here. VCT writes:
"Actually, when one follows vidhi-marga prompted by sacred greed, that is called raganuga-bhakti, and when one follows vidhi-marga and is prompted by scriptural injunctions, that is called vaidhi-bhakti. When one worships Krishna without following the rules set out by the Sruti and Smriti, that is considered a social disturbance."
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 19, 2006 1:52 pm
Delving into this topic has been so rewarding. It is so clear to me that the criticisms of BVT and BSST in relation to using the term vaidhi for ajata-ruci and, further, criticisms to their general approach to sadhana are unsubstantial. According to both sastra and common sense, their position is right on! I feel so proud to be in their parivara!!! :Big Grin:
It occurred to me that some of the controversies may have arisen from the fact that in days gone by, most devotees in India didn't have access to many books/commentaries. So someone may hear one statement and draw a faulty conclusion because he or she doesn't have comprehensive knowledge of the subject. Even wacky theories are based on a grain of truth, and that is why people fall for them.
Of course, if we have access to books/commentaries but don't read them, we're in the same boat.
Prema-bhakti Marga - December 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Sorry for so many speculations in such a few sentences but I know I am asking in proper place.
When I say "mindmade" I mean attitude: "Oh this is so cool just to play with God, have a fun in the bushes, or just swim all day along in the river, and not to have worship in owe and reverence, what is probably boring and little stiff" :Big Grin:
And "soulmade" meaning that perhaps our deep, hidden in the corner of our heart spiritual and inborn desire of our oryginal nature is able to some extent influence our material mind, making it atracted to things which are connected with our swarupa (like for example pastimes of Krsna, or Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya).
I was listening to a lecture yesterday and Guru Maharaja answered a question very similar to the one you ask above. The person wanted to know how much relevance in our conditioned stated does an attraction for a particular relationship have to our eternal svarupa? Is it necessarily connected or disconnected? In this instance GM answered that it could be either one. He said what we look for is serious spiritual practice. If you have a real serious practice and an interest in one of these sentiments then one can cultivate it in relations to one’s level of interest. Not in an inordinate way. If one collects information it should be viewed to fuel one’s practice rather than just collecting or to tell other people in some prideful way. He spoke about BSST emphasis on pure chanting of the holy name. That rather than becoming distracted by collecting information and thinking you are going somewhere, one should practice chanting the holy name as the clear task at hand.
He was however speaking to devotees who had been practicing for some time and suggested that they can seek general guidance from a senior devotee about this although he qualified it by saying that true raganuga bhajan doesn’t really require “is it okay” because it’s very characteristic is it doesn’t care if it is okay or not. He said if you need some sanction at best it is a budding interest yet we can still seek some guidance and take some inspiration.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - December 19, 2006 10:21 pm
Thank you Prema Bhakti Marga Mataji for sharing this. Just for clearance I want to say that I am not attempting right now cultivation of some raghanuga bhajana, and unfortunatly I am not feeling much attraction for any particular svarupa in spiritual world ) I realize that some could get this impression from my question. :Big Grin:
My question was asked more in general way in connection with vaidhi bhakti and raganuga bhakti issue.
Still this is interesting that for example in this point, idea that I would not go to Goloka, but "just" to some of the Vaikunthas scares me little bit. But in some way I have conviction that I belong to Krishna from Vraja, not to Narayana. Is it just wishful thinking, or do I have some foundations in thinking so? 
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - December 21, 2006 12:50 am
idea that I would not go to Goloka, but "just" to some of the Vaikunthas scares me little bit. But in some way I have conviction that I belong to Krishna from Vraja, not to Narayana.
I think some of the "I don’t want to end up at wrong destination" fear is probably based on the story of life of Ajamila (SB 6.1.21). He just called his son, Narayana, at the time of his death and got liberated to Vaikuntha. Pretty simple to do, no? Just mistakenly remember of Narayana instead Krishna and go to wrong place.
One thing to remember though is that Ajamila actually was a brahmana and was raised in brahmana family, yes, he lost his position by samsarga-dusitah (contamination by the association), none the less he obviously had previous sukrti, so he was born as a brahmana and he was doing some sadhana before he fallen down, so it’s probably pretty safe to assume that he was vaidhi-bhakta. So he was previously conditioned to go to his ideal, to Vaikuntha, it didn’t happen during his departure from his body. Remembering his son he actually remembered Lord Narayana, because of his previous training.
Because you scared to go to Vaikuntha, place of complete fulfillment, light, place of no material contamination, place of transcendental bliss, tells me that you do belong to Krishna from Vraja. Your previous sukrti with appropriate sadhana under correct guidance will surely deliver you to the right place. Krishna has a place for all of us, the problem (and task at hand) is that we have to empty ourselves and be filled with Krishna’s desire to see us at that place, so His will becomes our will and eventually each one will realize what this place actually is.
As we change bodies (from child to adult to old person) we change a state of conciseness as well, it’s a fluid and constant process. We have to harness our Krishna Conciseness via proper sadhana (anukulyasya sankalpah pratikulyasya varjanam, etc.) to make it fixed on the goal, make it dhruva, unmovable like a Polar Star.
Swami - December 22, 2006 7:56 pm
I think some of the "I don’t want to end up at wrong destination" fear is probably based on the story of life of Ajamila (SB 6.1.21). He just called his son, Narayana, at the time of his death and got liberated to Vaikuntha. Pretty simple to do, no? Just mistakenly remember of Narayana instead Krishna and go to wrong place.
One thing to remember though is that Ajamila actually was a brahmana and was raised in brahmana family, yes, he lost his position by samsarga-dusitah (contamination by the association), none the less he obviously had previous sukrti, so he was born as a brahmana and he was doing some sadhana before he fallen down, so it’s probably pretty safe to assume that he was vaidhi-bhakta. So he was previously conditioned to go to his ideal, to Vaikuntha, it didn’t happen during his departure from his body. Remembering his son he actually remembered Lord Narayana, because of his previous training.
Because you scared to go to Vaikuntha, place of complete fulfillment, light, place of no material contamination, place of transcendental bliss, tells me that you do belong to Krishna from Vraja. Your previous sukrti with appropriate sadhana under correct guidance will surely deliver you to the right place. Krishna has a place for all of us, the problem (and task at hand) is that we have to empty ourselves and be filled with Krishna’s desire to see us at that place, so His will becomes our will and eventually each one will realize what this place actually is.
As we change bodies (from child to adult to old person) we change a state of conciseness as well, it’s a fluid and constant process. We have to harness our Krishna Conciseness via proper sadhana (anukulyasya sankalpah pratikulyasya varjanam, etc.) to make it fixed on the goal, make it dhruva, unmovable like a Polar Star.
You have made some nice points here, Nandatanuja. Regarding Ajamila, the Bhagavatam relates that he also did not go directly to Vaikuntha. He was reinstated and went to Haridvara, where he perfected himself in vaidhi bhakti.
Regarding Madhavendra Puri's questions, others have also made some good points, but we need a comprehensive reply. Is one's svarupa inherent or not or both, etc.? :Big Grin:
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 22, 2006 8:53 pm
Great points, Nanda-tanuja!
Is one's svarupa inherent or not or both, etc.?
It depends on your definition of "inherent." The jiva is cit-anu, a partial expression of the hladini, samvit, and sandini saktis. Bhaktivinode Thakur clarifies:
A diminutive portion of the svarupa-sakti is present in the jiva, therefore her three properties are also present within the jiva in a small quantity. The hladini-sakti is present in the jiva as perfect brahmananda, the bliss of Brahman transcendence, which is ready to be realized at any time. The samvit-sakti is manifested in the jiva as brahma-jnana, knowledge of the undifferentiated Absolute Truth, and sandhini-sakti is manifested in the jiva as anu-caitanya, the minute spark of the supreme consciousness.
Thus because the jiva soul is a partial manifestation of the svarupa-sakti, on its own it can only experience up to sat, cit, ananda. In this sense, one could say that the svarupa is not inherent. However, with the ingress of svarupa-sakti into the jiva soul, resulting from sadhana and bhava bhakti, the jiva, on attaining prema, can participate in Krsna-lila along with the nitya parikaras of Sri Krsna, who are constituted of svarupa-sakti. Such a liberated jiva thus realizes its highest potential by the grace of the svarupa-sakti and is endowed with spiritual emotion and a corresponding form. The svarupa of the jiva is within the jiva in seed form, and with the ingress of svarupa-sakti, it grows to maturity. In this sense one could say that the jiva's svarupa is inherent.
The maya sakti, which is a distorted manifestation of the svarupa-sakti rather than a partial manifestation, is unconscious and thus does not have the potential to participate in the lila governed by the svarupa-sakti. Bhaktivinode Thakur says:
When these same properties (hladhini, samvit, sandhini) are projected into the maya-sakti on the material plane, they behave differently because of the resultant contamination. The hladini-sakti is exhibited as gross mundane pleasure, samvit-sakti as materialistic knowledge, and sandhini-sakti as the fourteen planetary systems of the material creation and the physical forms encasing the jiva.
Therefore, as we have seen, whether the svarupa is "inherent" is somewhat ambiguous. Whether the svarupa is "predestined" is more straightforward. As Guru Maharaja has said, no one can say that the svarupa of the jiva is not in the mind of Krsna. In this sense, the svarupa is "unmanifest" in Goloka.
Evidence that the svarupa is predestined can be found in the case of Anupama, the brother of Rupa and Sanatana, who could not convert to worshipping Krsna rather than Rama, although he was convinced intellectually that Krsna is transcendentally higher than Rama and he had the association of Rupa and Sanatana.
The experience of one's svarupa manifesting is such that the devotee experiences the spiritual desire to love Krsna in a particular way as Sri Krsna simultaneously reveals his desire to relate with that devotee in a particular sentiment. So it is both predestined as well as desired and in need of cultivation as it begins to manifest.
Thus although our svarupa is predestined, this is not to say that we can sit back and simply wait for destiny to unfold. Although we may not end up permanently "stuck" in, say, Vaikuntha, we will certainly remain stuck in the material world for a long time and possibly deterred in Vaikuntha for some time. In other words, it is our decisions that determine whether we are on a straight route or taking a rambling, backroads approach. Better to learn from the mistakes of others than to have to learn from one's own mistakes. As someone said, "The cheapest experience is second-hand. If you'll buy it."
Gopisvara Dasa - December 23, 2006 8:45 pm
Good points.
(Quote)Although we may not end up permanently "stuck" in, say, Vaikuntha, we will certainly remain stuck in the material world for a long time and possibly deterred in Vaikuntha for some time(Vrndaranya dasi)
Could you expound on what you mean by deterred in Vaikuntha?
Vrindaranya Dasi - December 24, 2006 2:17 am
Oops, I meant "detoured" not "deterred." :Big Grin:
Niscala Dasi - December 30, 2006 7:02 am
Great points, Nanda-tanuja!
It depends on your definition of "inherent." The jiva is cit-anu, a partial expression of the hladini, samvit, and sandini saktis. Bhaktivinode Thakur clarifies:
Thus because the jiva soul is a partial manifestation of the svarupa-sakti, on its own it can only experience up to sat, cit, ananda. In this sense, one could say that the svarupa is not inherent. However, with the ingress of svarupa-sakti into the jiva soul, resulting from sadhana and bhava bhakti, the jiva, on attaining prema, can participate in Krsna-lila along with the nitya parikaras of Sri Krsna, who are constituted of svarupa-sakti. Such a liberated jiva thus realizes its highest potential by the grace of the svarupa-sakti and is endowed with spiritual emotion and a corresponding form. The svarupa of the jiva is within the jiva in seed form, and with the ingress of svarupa-sakti, it grows to maturity. In this sense one could say that the jiva's svarupa is inherent.
It is still not clear from your reasoning whether the svarupa is inherent or not. If it is inherent, it is obviously in seed form, as the conditioned jiva is undeveloped in bhakti. But from the quote you have given, all we know is that it is the bliss of brahman, not bhakti, that is the ananda inherent in the jiva. Is it that this bhakti svarupa seed eternally exists in the jiva, or that it manifests when one starts the bhakti path, or is it given by the guru, maybe at the time of initiation.? I have always wondered about this- at least since I was once on a forum where the question was raised and not resolved.
Swami - January 4, 2007 5:48 pm
It is still not clear from your reasoning whether the svarupa is inherent or not. If it is inherent, it is obviously in seed form, as the conditioned jiva is undeveloped in bhakti. But from the quote you have given, all we know is that it is the bliss of brahman, not bhakti, that is the ananda inherent in the jiva. Is it that this bhakti svarupa seed eternally exists in the jiva, or that it manifests when one starts the bhakti path, or is it given by the guru, maybe at the time of initiation.? I have always wondered about this- at least since I was once on a forum where the question was raised and not resolved.
As Vrindaranya pointed out, the word inherent as used by Bhaktivinoda is somewhat ambigious. I am not sure what word he uses in Bengali or Sanskrit that has been rendered "inherent." "Dormant" is also common, but not very useful in sorting out this quandry. Perhaps "latent potential" would be a better way to describe it.
One's svarupa manifests with the ingress of bhakti via sri guru parampara. This ingress is like a capital investement that makes our wealth and thus our purchasing power grow. It gives us the budget to live in Goloka. Jiva tattva is in one sense "neither here nor there." Its identity is largely determined by its association. After all, what is a jiva unto itself? Perhaps this is the question, but in fact it has no identity indepenent of asociation with either Krsna's maya-sakti or his svarupa-sakti. Of the two, the material identity is fleeting and unlike the jiva, who is a unit of consciousness. Whereas the spiritual identity is enduring, and being constituted of conscousness, it is generally speaking of the same constitution as that of the jiva.
We are defined by our desires and what is life without deisre? Attachement to material objects gives rise to a material identity. Similarly, attachment to Krsna gives rise to a spiritual identity, ayi nanadatanuja kinkaram. Here in asakti (attachment) Mahaprabhu says "I want to live inthe house of Nanda Maharaja as a maidservant of his son." His attachment to Krsna gives rise to his gopi identity.
When Mahaprabhu told Sanatana Goswami that the svarupa of the jiva is krsnera nitya dasa, he went on to explain the prema prayojana with an example. He described the materially conditioned soul as being wealthy owing to the fact that it had an inheritance. Thus it has no cause for sorrow. The scriputre and sri guru tell us about this inheritance (sambandha) and how to find it (abhideya). In doing so the guru gives us a sample of it so that we can recongnize it when we find it. He does this by impating the mantra backed by his realization, his standing in faith. (Thus faith is the seed in another metaphor). Following the guidance of guru and sastra the jiva realizes its wealth (prayojana/svarupa).
The inherent nature or nitya dharma of the jiva is to serve, and this inherent nature is perfected when the object of the jiva's service is Krsna. This perfection takes the shape of an eternal identity, upon realizing which the jiva experiences its latent potential.
Thakura Bhaktivinoda writes,
Robertnewman - January 5, 2007 2:17 am
After all, what is a jiva unto itself? Perhaps this is the question, but in fact it has no identity independent of asociation with either Krsna's maya-sakti or his svarupa-sakti.
If the jiva has no intrinsic identity then it would seem that it could have no personality either. A spiritual "entity" without identity or personality would seem to have no significant reality at all, raising the question, Is "jiva" really anything more than a philosophical construct? Personally, I could live with that 
but I don't want to misinterpret the situation, so I would appreciate some clarification.
Swami - January 5, 2007 3:23 am
If the jiva has no intrinsic identity then it would seem that it could have no personality either. A spiritual "entity" without identity or personality would seem to have no significant reality at all, raising the question, Is "jiva" really anything more than a philosophical construct? Personally, I could live with that
There is no point at which the jiva is not associated with either the maya-sakti, the svarupa-sakti, or both.
I think that Bhaktivinoda Thakura would say that the jiva is "programed" to have spiritual identity under certain conditions—the influence of Sri Krsna's svarupa-sakti. Therefore its nitya dharma is service to Krsna and that service takes a particular shape in perfection. This then is its intrinsic identity. Although it can exist under the influence of the maya-sakti, its so called material identity is not its identity at all, for such an identity is not enduring, whereas the jiva itself is eternal. Moreover its so called material identity obcures its intrinsic identity.
Swami - January 13, 2007 12:20 am
In some portions of the scriptures the associates of Lord Krsna or Ramacandra are described more like demigods who descended to earth to participate in lord's pastimes rather than devotees descending from spiritual world. Are both the descriptions equally valid or one is only a partial truth and the other is the complete truth.
This has been a very interesting thread, and I think we have dealt comprehensively with the issue. I have appreciated everyone's participation. however, there are a few unanswered and perhaps less that directly related questions on here that have not been addressed probably for that reason. The quote from Viveka above is an example. Let me try to address it.
I think this actually came up earlier on when I cited verses from the Bhagavata that described the associates of Sri Krsna as demigods descended from heaven. This was in relation to Audarya-lila's question as to how Madhva and others dealt with the direct statements in the Bhagavata about Krsna-lila and loka (something like that). So that can be referenced. Otherwise such statements have to be viewed in light of the siddhanta and adjusted accordingly. In order to understand the essence of a book like the Bhagavata there is a standard procedure. One must examine (1) the opening and closing statements (2) that which is repeated throughout (3) that which is unique to the text (4) the fruit of applying the text (5) that which the author states is its meaning. One must also apply a 6th exercise, that of reasoning.
Careful study of the Bhagavata reveals that Sri Krsna is svayam bhagavan. This is the Bhagavata siddhanta, its essential truth. Commentators that understand statements appearing to say that his associates are from material heaven as the whole truth are not aware of this fundamental truth of the text. If he is svayam bhagavan and not an occasional avatara of Narayana, he must have his own abode and associates. Since he is a lover, a son, and a friend, he must have lover's, friends, and parents that are eternal. He does, and they are constituted of his svarupa sakti. Others who are partial manifestations of these associates and dwell in heaven join the eternal associates forms at the time of Sri Krsna's appearance. Just as svayam bhagavan is partially represented in Mathura, Dvaraka, Vaikuntha, and even in heaven, so too are his associates. It is they who come to join with their origin in celebration of the decent of svayam bhagavan, just as all the forms of the Lord are within him at the time of his appearance.
We must also remember that Sukadeva had a mixed audience, and Vyasa wrote for both the informed and uniformed on different levels. So the language of the Bhagavata is layered with many truths. The whole truth is found in the lineage that wholly embraces the Bahgavata.
Syamasundara - January 13, 2007 3:41 pm
All right so it seems that the jiva is like a hydrangea seed.
It is predestined to become a plant of hydrangea, but it never will without external factors such as, but not limited to, light (faith), soil (sadhana), and water (mercy). I chose the hydrangea because, just like those plants can have flowers that go from blue to pink and all there is inbetween according to the pH of the soil, so too the jiva develops a different taste according to the association.
Does this make sense?
Swami - January 13, 2007 7:31 pm
All right so it seems that the jiva is like a hydrangea seed.It is predestined to become a plant of hydrangea, but it never will without external factors such as, but not limited to, light (faith), soil (sadhana), and water (mercy). I chose the hydrangea because, just like those plants can have flowers that go from blue to pink and all there is inbetween according to the pH of the soil, so too the jiva develops a different taste according to the association.
Does this make sense?
To an extent, but I think this topic has been dealt with satisfactorily above. I am now seeking to answer any unanswered questions left on the thread, and these can be discussed furhter if need be.
Questions like this one from Viveka:
"Sometimes some acharyas in other sampradayas do exhibit spiritual selflessness prominent among them being sri ramanujacarya. He gave the secret mantra to everybody from the top of the temple, even though warned by his guru of harsh consequences of making this secret mantra public.But he said that it is better that conditioned souls get the benefit and he go to hell rather than he get the benefit alone. Does it count as some sort of priti instead of the mukti defined above for the followers of vaidi bhakti sampradayas."
Vivek - January 15, 2007 3:06 am
Thank you maharaja for putting this question about sri ramanujacarya back into discussion. Also even in the sri sampradayas they accept two devotees as elevated though they break some rules of vaidhi bhakti. First is the instance when vidura's wife feeds banana peels instead of bananas to krsna and other is when the tribal woman shabari offers fruit which is already tasted by her to lord ramachandra( she tastes the fruits and keeps the good ones for the lord).
Is some sort of breaking of rules possible only in case of krsna or is it possible to some extent in ramacandra's pastimes also.
isn't it true that a devotee in bhava may not be able to follow the scriptural code due to self forgetfulness? When does the breaking of rules constitute rasabhasa? Can neophytes like me also know what is rasabhasa or only a very advanced devotee can know this
Swami - January 21, 2007 9:03 pm
Thank you maharaja for putting this question about sri ramanujacarya back into discussion. Also even in the sri sampradayas they accept two devotees as elevated though they break some rules of vaidhi bhakti. First is the instance when vidura's wife feeds banana peels instead of bananas to krsna and other is when the tribal woman shabari offers fruit which is already tasted by her to lord ramachandra( she tastes the fruits and keeps the good ones for the lord).Is some sort of breaking of rules possible only in case of krsna or is it possible to some extent in ramacandra's pastimes also.
Viveka,
You have a habit of asking one question and then adding several more on to the same post. This makes it difficult to answer, as often each question could involve an entire discussion. Here for example you ask about transgressing rules and rasabhasa. In this case the two don't really have much to do with each other.
Let me focus of the original question concerning the difference between the story of the gopis’ willingness to go to hell for putting the dust of their feet of Sri Krsna's head and the willingness of the Sri Vaisnava to give out a mantra to others for their benefit even when he knew that doing so consitituted disobeying his guru, the consequence for which could be damnation.
First of all even devotees of Narayana are prepared to go to hell for his service. As the Bhagavata says
narayana-parah sarve
na kutascana bibhyati
svargapavarga-narakesv
api tulyartha-darsinah
"Devotees of Narayana have no fear. They view all situations equally—heaven, hell, liberation, or bondage.
So there is no difference in this sense between devotees of Vaikuntha and the Vrajasundaris. However, there is a difference in one's being prepared to go to hell for the sake of others and another's doing something that is generally perceived as being offensive to Bhagavan and thought to result in damnation, something that has no direct connection with compassion for others. Compassion for the fallen souls and tendering to the headache of Krsna are worlds apart. While compassion for others is contained within tendering to Krsna's headache, such intimate personal service to Bhagavan and identification with his personal interest as if it were one's own is not necessarily contained within the compassion of a Vaisnava for others. Compassion for the fallen is expressed more by Maha Visnu than by Vrajendranandana.
Sri Vaisnavas can attain the status of one of Krsna's queens in Dvaraka, no higher. They may be prepared to go to hell to save others as service to Bhagavan, but they are not prepared to do what the gopis did anymore than Rukmini was prepared to run away and elope with Krsna.
Regarding the transgression of Vidura you cite, this has nothing to do with raganuga bhakti. This lila serves to illustrate that Krsna accepts the spirit of the offering—the devotion in it—even when all of the procedures may not be in order.
I am not familiar with the tale about the lady tasting the food before offering it to Rama, but here and there we may find some transgression of marayada in the service of Bhagavan’s human-like lilas. However the difference in such instances and the Vraja lila is that the entire Vraja lila is an apparent transgression of decorum.
Vivek - January 22, 2007 3:39 pm
Thank you maharaja. I will try to keep it in mind to keep the questions relevant to the post only and not put in too many additional citations. I am sorry for my trangression.