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where do our prayers go?

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - January 6, 2007 10:15 am

I heard Swami saying in some of his talks that Krsna hears prayers of devotee being on the stage of ruci and up from there. What happens with our (I mean persons on the level before ruci) prayers? Where they go? If I´m on sraddha level, and I dont have attachement and affection for Krsna, but I pray to Him to give me pure bhakti does He hear it? I´ll be happy to hear your ideas about it.

I remember story about Gop Kumar, and the way Swami was telling it; when Krsna met finally with Gop Kumar He said: "Finally you have come! I was with you all the time, trying to help you come to Me" Does Krsna means His Paramatma feature or Himself personally?

Syamasundara - January 6, 2007 4:51 pm

If you have a copy of the Siksastaka read on pages 73-74

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - January 6, 2007 11:08 pm

If you have a copy of the Siksastaka read on pages 73-74

Wow!! Thank you so much Syamasundar Prabhu. I just got Siksastaka, and I didnt have time to read it yet, but this explanation is incredible. How wanderful mercy of Lord Chaitania and Lord Nityananda is! _____O_

Premarnava - January 7, 2007 3:31 am

Wow!! Thank you so much Syamasundar Prabhu. I just got Siksastaka, and I didnt have time to read it yet, but this explanation is incredible. How wanderful mercy of Lord Chaitania and Lord Nityananda is! _____O_

uh, I don't have Siksastaka... and I'm also curious what is the answer Can somebody quote it briefly?... pease

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - January 7, 2007 10:40 am

Haribolo Prema. I´ll be honored to do this service for you. Get inspired to buy book ))))

Siksastakam p.73-74

"Although the baddha-jivas are originally manifest from the Paramatma, if they are pursuing Vraja prema, they are focused on Krsna, Radha-Krsna. However Krsna is lost in his Vraja-lila and forgetfull of his Gdhood. He is similtaneusly God and forgetful of his Godhood, forgetfull by the force of his devotees´ love, which couses him to appear as intimate friend or lover. Although it is true that despite Krsna´s being primarily lost in love he nonothless retains his Godgood and can thus hear the prayers of his sadhakas, one can legitimatly ask at what stage of spiritual practice a sadhaka´s prayers are capable of attracting Krsna´s personal attention and, furthmore, at what stage a sadhaka´s seva becomes lila-seva, internal sev, that reaches Krsna in his nitya-lila. While some may insist that Krsna personally listens to the preyers of his sadhaka at any stage of sadhana Thakur Bhaktivinoda says, "The prayers of one who is a saranagata are heard by Sri Nanda-kumara." As we have alread learned, saranagati is complete in the stage of ruci.

By invoking the nam Isvara/Pranesvara in his fourth stanza in contrast to name Jagadisa, Mahaprabhu implies that the sadhaka´s shift toward actual lila-seva has its earliest beginning in ruci, as one move from jurisdiction of Paramatma to the jurisdiction of one´s personal Dity situated in his eternal lila. (...)

Should any sadhaka who has not yet attained ruci or asakti despair at this conclusion that in early stages of sadhana the Paramatma is involved in one´s live more then one´s personal Deity, he or she can take solace in Mahaprabhu Visvambhara himself, as well as in the most mercifull Nityananda. Although Mahaprabhu prays to Jagadisa and his Pranesvara in this verse, his followers should pray to him. He is Visvambhara, the maintainer of the Universe, and he is Krsna himself, the source of all avataras. He is yugaavatara and he is lost in mahabhava. Thus he is both our Jagadisa and Pranesvara. With one hand he reaches out to the baddha-jiva with yuga dharma and with other he reaches up to the highest point of Vraja prema, as he dances in nama-sankirtana. He is Krsna himself yet present in the world for sadhakas in his acarya lila, and his other self Sri Nityananda Prabhu, he is present that much more, with both hands streched out to all materially conditioned souls. Thakur Bhaktivinoda has emphasized tht worship of Gaura Nityananda in dasya bhakti begets Vraja-prema. Worship in Nadiya, live in Vrndavana. Gaura Nityananda hear the prayers of their sadhakas, even those who have no ruci, and as their sadhakas attain ruci, Gaura Nityananda begin to crac open the door to service in Krsna´s eternal lila."

Mayapurcandra Das - January 7, 2007 10:55 am

uh, I don't have Siksastaka... and I'm also curious what is the answer Can somebody quote it briefly?... pease

If my understanding is proper , so it looks like that the devotee who is on the early stages of sadhana, the Paramatma take cares of him personaly, and is more involved on his life than his personaly Deity. But as Guru Maharaja wrote, those devotee shouldn't despair because he can take solace in Sriman Mahaprabhu and in the most merciful Nityananda Prabhu. GM explain that Mahaprabhu in verse 4 of Siksastakam prays to Jagadisa (this name refers Paramatma) and His Pranesvara (the Lord of His life-Sri Krsna), and we-his folowes should pray to Him to Lord Gauracandra. He is Krsna Himself. He is both our Jagadisa and our Pranesvara.

Gaura-Nityananda hear the prayers of their sadhakas, even those who have no ruci, and as their sadhakas attain ruci, Gaura-Nityananda begin to crack open the door to service in Krsna's eternal lila.

Mayapurcandra Das - January 7, 2007 10:57 am

ups, Madhavendra Puri was first

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - January 7, 2007 1:25 pm

ups, Madhavendra Puri was first

Ha ha, but Madhavendra was just repeting like a parrot but you used your own words

Premarnava - January 7, 2007 5:29 pm

Thank you both! That was indeed inspiring.

Mayapurcandra Das - January 7, 2007 8:54 pm

Thank you both! That was indeed inspiring.

no-we thank you for inspiration to writing something on the TV,

take care dear Premarnava

p.s. we have to meet all together in the near future (maybe on Gaura Purnima ??)

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - January 9, 2007 10:40 am

Hmm: something came to my mind today: what about Krsna in his deitie form? Doesnt He hear our prayers and accept our service? Isn´t deitie of Krsna, Krsna Himself?

I think it is bothering me litlle bit because I used to pray to Krsna, for help in my spiritual life, or even for other things, but now I´m feeling kind of left.

Swami - January 9, 2007 2:49 pm

Hmm: something came to my mind today: what about Krsna in his deitie form? Doesnt He hear our prayers and accept our service? Isn´t deitie of Krsna, Krsna Himself?

 

I think it is bothering me litlle bit because I used to pray to Krsna, for help in my spiritual life, or even for other things, but now I´m feeling kind of left.

The point here is not that Krsna cannot hear his sadhaka's prayers, but that the sadhaka's prayers should be sincere if he or she expects Krsna to listen to them. Thus proportionate to one's surrender--one's embrace of saranagati--he listens. Hearing and listening are two different things. My statements in Siksastakam are emphasizing this:

Be a saranagata if you expect Krsna to listen to you. After all he is absorbed in prema madhurya. Yes, he is still omniscient and thus theoreticaly he can hear his neophyete devotee's prayers, but if you expect him to listen, how sincere must those prayers be? So there is a practical point that I am making in the section of Siksastakam referred to. Therefore I have written that it is true that Krsna can hear one's prayers, or listen to them if he wants to. Furthermore the section cited above has some bhava for Mahaprabhu in it, and he is the son of Nanda.

Of course we will continue to pray to Krishna and the deity of Krishna and that will not go in vein. But in our line we also emphasize as revealed in Siksastakam that until one is situated on the raga marg (jata ruci raganuga) Krsna in the form of God is more involved in our life than Krishna himself. Vaidhi marg with a view to attain qualification for raga marg takes us through reverntial love to pranaya. Therefore sometimes Prabhupada would say that really his students were worshiping Laxmi Narayana and only gradually becoming qualified to serve Radha Krsna. With regard to Mahaprabhu, are we worshiping him in terms of his Radha bhava or his yuga dharma aspect? First ceto darpana marjanam.

Gaurangi-priya Devi - January 9, 2007 4:09 pm

Hmm: something came to my mind today: what about Krsna in his deitie form? Doesnt He hear our prayers and accept our service? Isn´t deitie of Krsna, Krsna Himself?

 

I think it is bothering me litlle bit because I used to pray to Krsna, for help in my spiritual life, or even for other things, but now I´m feeling kind of left.

Also, Gurumaharaj has said that the Guru can hear our prayers and offer them to Krsna as he is in more of a position for Krsna to hear him. He has said often that we should attach ourselves to and serve someone who has gained Krsna's attention, and it that way Krsna will hopefully notice us. That's why it seems more important to pray to the pure devotees of the Lord. I too have felt like you mention above, but then instead of just thinking about praying to Krsna, I started thinking about praying more to Guru and the so many saints and previous acaryas in our illustrious parampara. They are Krsna's manifestation for us, and they are even more merciful, I think.

Babhru Das - January 9, 2007 9:53 pm

This thread has brought out some really good points, especially Swami's point that Krishna's attention is proportionate to our surrender. This also reminds me of one of my favorite lines from a movie. I may have mentioned this elsewhere. Shadowlands tells about writer C. S. Lewis' dark night of the soul, after he married an American woman late in his life. When she took ill with bone cancer, he went through a rough time, and once, when she went into remission, one of his colleagues made a remark about God having answered Lewis' prayers. Lewis responded, "That's not why I pray, Harry. I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God, it changes me."

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - January 9, 2007 10:27 pm

Thank you all for your wanderful answers. I am feeling very fortunate to have your association. I say it from my heart _____O_

Joseph Rael - January 16, 2007 12:40 pm

This thread has brought out some really good points, especially Swami's point that Krishna's attention is proportionate to our surrender. This also reminds me of one of my favorite lines from a movie. I may have mentioned this elsewhere. Shadowlands tells about writer C. S. Lewis' dark night of the soul, after he married an American woman late in his life. When she took ill with bone cancer, he went through a rough time, and once, when she went into remission, one of his colleagues made a remark about God having answered Lewis' prayers. Lewis responded, "That's not why I pray, Harry. I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God, it changes me."

Jai. Thank you Babbru das.

Guru-nistha Das - January 17, 2007 3:14 am

With regard to Mahaprabhu, are we worshiping him in terms of his Radha bhava or his yuga dharma aspect? First ceto darpana marjanam.

Interesting. So when ajata ruci sadhakas pray for Mahaprabhu, is it actually Gaura Narayana, the Vishnu side of Mahaprabhu that hears us? Because our minds are cluttered by kaitava, or desire for the four goals of life, the side of God answers to us who deals with that side of reality?

Another thing this thread made me think of is how this parallels with our relationship with our Guru. As we progress, we move from seeing the guru as directly God (aisvarya) to seeing him as God's intimate companion (madhurya). The more we have desires for the six opulences, the more we relate to our Guru with awe and reverence, because in a materially conditioned state we equate lack of aishvarya with the ordinary and the mundane. SO when we approach Sri Guru with a view to get something out of the relationship, he reciprocates with us in a more general way, but when we surrender and show sincerity, he shows who he really is, proportionate to the student's sincerity and honesty. Is this correct?

Swami - January 29, 2007 5:23 pm

Interesting. So when ajata ruci sadhakas pray for Mahaprabhu, is it actually Gaura Narayana, the Vishnu side of Mahaprabhu that hears us? Because our minds are cluttered by kaitava, or desire for the four goals of life, the side of God answers to us who deals with that side of reality?

Another thing this thread made me think of is how this parallels with our relationship with our Guru. As we progress, we move from seeing the guru as directly God (aisvarya) to seeing him as God's intimate companion (madhurya)

Yes.

The more we have desires for the six opulences, the more we relate to our Guru with awe and reverence, because in a materially conditioned state we equate lack of aishvarya with the ordinary and the mundane.

SO when we approach Sri Guru with a view to get something out of the relationship, he reciprocates with us in a more general way, but when we surrender and show sincerity, he shows who he really is, proportionate to the student's sincerity and honesty. Is this correct?

Yes, correct.

Gopisvara Dasa - January 30, 2007 7:20 am

QUOTE

Interesting. So when ajata ruci sadhakas pray for Mahaprabhu, is it actually Gaura Narayana, the Vishnu side of Mahaprabhu that hears us? Because our minds are cluttered by kaitava, or desire for the four goals of life, the side of God answers to us who deals with that side of reality?

(Guru Nishta)

QUOTE

Yes for the most part such devotees are drawing on this side of Mahaprabhu, who is reciprocating such that the field can be cleared of debree so that the devotee reach the goal he or she is ultimately aspiring for.(Swami)

I was under the impression that when we(ajata ruci sadhakas) do kirtan(and pujaris as well?) before Radha Govinda we are really worshiping Laksmi Narayana, but to do kirtan before Gaura Nitai is worshiping Krishna in the mood of Radha.Do I now correctly understand that this is not true,we are instead worhiping Gaura Narayana?

How about when we chant Krishna nama? Is that Laksmi Narayana as well?

Swami - January 30, 2007 1:00 pm

QUOTE

Interesting. So when ajata ruci sadhakas pray for Mahaprabhu, is it actually Gaura Narayana, the Vishnu side of Mahaprabhu that hears us? Because our minds are cluttered by kaitava, or desire for the four goals of life, the side of God answers to us who deals with that side of reality?

(Guru Nishta)

QUOTE

Yes for the most part such devotees are drawing on this side of Mahaprabhu, who is reciprocating such that the field can be cleared of debree so that the devotee reach the goal he or she is ultimately aspiring for.(Swami)

I was under the impression that when we(ajata ruci sadhakas) do kirtan(and pujaris as well?) before Radha Govinda we are really worshiping Laksmi Narayana, but to do kirtan before Gaura Nitai is worshiping Krishna in the mood of Radha.Do I now correctly understand that this is not true,we are instead worhiping Gaura Narayana?

 

How about when we chant Krishna nama? Is that Laksmi Narayana as well?

The idea is that when we chant or worship, etc, we draw reciprocation from our Deity relative to our approach. Gaura Narayana is an aspect of Sacinandana that is more concerned with the cleansing of our hearts, yuga dharma, etc. If we think "I am standing before Gadadharaprana, who is absorbed in Radha bhava, and singing Krsna nama for his pleasure. May he be pleased in this way," that is one approach. If we stand before our Deity and and chant Krsna nama thiking "Oh Lord Caitanya please help me to control my senses and cleanse my heart so that I can become qualified to serve you in your eternal lila," that is another approach.

Gopisvara Dasa - January 30, 2007 8:14 pm

The idea is that when we chant or worship, etc, we draw reciprocation from our Deity relative to our approach. Gaura Narayana is an aspect of Sacinandana that is more concerned with the cleansing of our hearts, yuga dharma, etc. If we think "I am standing before Gadadharaprana, who is absorbed in Radha bhava, and singing Krsna nama for his pleasure. May he be pleased in this way," that is one approach. If we stand before our Deity and and chant Krsna nama thiking "Oh Lord Caitanya please help me to control my senses and cleanse my heart so that I can become qualified to serve you in your eternal lila," that is another approach.

Is it possible to try to think the former while the latter is applicable or is that artificial, jumping over or even sahajiya?

Swami - January 30, 2007 11:53 pm

Is it possible to try to think the former while the latter is applicable or is that artificial, jumping over or even sahajiya?

Yes it's possible and it need not be artificial, etc. For an ajata ruci raganuga bhakta some interest in Gaura and Krsna lila should be there. Even the latter prayer includes some of the former. The idea is that the more we develop interest in Krsna's desires—the satisfaction of his senses and his world—the more we should be losing interest in the world of our senses. The two do not go well together . At lease we should pray that we might develop interest in Krsna's world and loose interest in the world of our senses. Try for it. Indeed, our liturgy here at Audarya is worth considering. If you cannot meditate on Gaura's eternal lila in trance, at lest you can sing about it.

Babhru Das - January 31, 2007 2:19 am

Indeed, our liturgy here at Audarya is worth considering. If you cannot meditate on Gaura's eternal lila in trance, at lest you can sing about it.

I've listened often to the Audarya Seva CD, and sung along as well. However, singing these songs with the other devotees at Audarya produced such a sweet mood. I found it easy to chant a lot of rounds there, and that made me want to do some service for the devotees and the Deities. (I would have been happier if I had been able to spend more time there.)

Ian Laycock - January 31, 2007 12:54 pm

Is the Audarya seva cd available from the online store?

I wasn't able to find it. Thanks.

-ian

Babhru Das - February 4, 2007 5:19 pm

Ian, I can't find it there, either. Too bad. :Ying Yang:

Babhru Das - February 5, 2007 3:22 am

I thought about this thread when I read the following in Srila Sridhar Maharaja's Sri Prapanna Javanamritam: